There are two errors at the root of so-called progressive support--tentative or full-throated, it makes no difference--for the Democratic Party. The first error is believing that the Democratic Party is a peace party, or at very least, that the Democratic Party is now institutionally committed to ending the Iraq War. They're committed insofar as Hillary Clinton, who like most of her cosectarians supported the war until its failures became entirely undeniable, says that it would be "the height of irresponsibility" for "this president" to leave the catastrophe to his successor. Or they are committed, in the now-popular euphemism, to "phased redeployment," through which American soldiers will remove themselves (mostly) from territorial Iraq, but will remain "in the region" and "as an over-the-horizon force." The Iraq War was part of a project of regional dominance articulated in its present form by none other than Democratic President Jiminy Carter, who proclaimed the Middle East, and the Persian Gulf in particular, "a vital national interest," of the United States. That, too, is a euphemism we all understand. The Democratic Party's committment to ending the War in Iraq is a committment to mitigating American losses, diminishing any perception of their own culpability, and therefore maximizing their own future political fortunes. It isn't a committment to peace in any meaningful sense, and it's even less a committment to disengagement from a failed regional policy in which the bloody stumbling of the American military and its Israeli proxies has served only to stoke the flames of religious conflict, religious extremism, and religious nationalism. The non-binding 110th has shown no inclination toward any meaningful diminishment of America's disastrous involvement in the Middle East. (But, I can already hear the plaintive progressive cries, there's nothing they can do! If true--which it ain't--that's only one more reason to stop giving them your money, your time, and your vote.) That they now wish impotently for fewer American targets in the shooting gallery they complied to create is hardly an argument for their status as peacemakers.
This first error is the inevitable outgrowth from the second, which is a serious fallacy of premise. The second error is the error of that favorite political adjective "unprecedented." You can be sure that any time that word appears in political discourse, the exact opposite is true. The War in Iraq is not an unprecedented foreign policy disaster. It's a disaster with a distinct, observable lineage. The Bush administration is not unprecedented. Its precedents are every other presidency in the years since World War II, and several, at least, before. At the very root of the error is unthinking acceptance of the P.T. Barnum-esque premise of America as "The Greatest and Most Prosperous Nation in the World," a chestunt roasted equally by both parties. That phrase, and those like it, is shorthand for a religious--I mean that as a pejorative--belief that the United States of America, being something of a civilizational (minimum: civic, political) apotheosis has an affirmative commission to interfere in the internal developments of other nations for whatever reason we see fit. The most disastrous consequence of that belief from a purely practical standpoint is that it has decoupled our plain imperialism from plain acknowledgement that imperialism is our project. Because our moral self-illusion precludes us from really identifying what it is we seek when we send off the ships and airplanes and infantry, we make colonial policy by circumlocution and euphemism, even at the very highest levels. "The forward agenda of freedom" isn't only a phrase for public consumption. Meaningless bromides are clearly just as much the lingua franca of the governing class. The far more disastrous consequence from a human perspective is that because we believe our bromides, believe in our goodness, and believe in the legitimacy of our moral pretensions, we feel as justified as any other zealot in raining blood and fire on non-belieivers, since we believe that a failure to convert is spiritual doom anyway.
That sort of exceptionalism lead us into a militarized national security state, a garrison economy, a many-trillion-dollar military complex, a series of fruitless border skirmishes with the Soviet Union that, in their worst instance, killed millions of Vietnamese. It led to the creation of a vast nuclear arsenal which we alone reserve the right to use, should it become "necessary." It led to a quarter-century of America-funded, America-supported massacres in Latin America. (These things occured under Democrats as much as under Republicans.) It lead to the modern surveillance state, the gradual slide toward national identification, the imprisonment of two million Americans, the creation of a vast intelligence apparatus with no meaningful Congressional oversight and secret budgts. It lead to our monstrous interventionist policies in the Middle East. It lead to Bill Clinton's "Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act," which lead to the Patriot Act. It lead to the articulated Clinton/Gore policy of "regime change"--a Democratic euphemism. The current contention that "A Gore presidency wouldn't have taken us to war in Iraq" is not only fanciful, ahistorical projection, it's also patently false in that we were already at war with Iraq. We were bombing the country almost daily through the final years of the Clinton administration, and Al Gore was one of the staunchest Iraq hawks in the government. It was a low-intensity conflict that we simply chose to ignore domestically under the euphemistic guise of "no-fly zones" and "economic sanctions." In Susan Sontag's famously provocative post-9/11 essay, she asked, "How many Americans are aware of our ongoing bombardment of Iraq?" You know the answer.
The progressive will say that all this is a recipe for hopelessness. Only a major party can make changes, goes the argument, and if you can't get behind one then you're just a useless complainer. It's a profoundly ignorant argument. Every vote for either major party is approbation for immense crimes. It's only because their historical perspective is so myopic that these self-proclaimed progressives view political action as necessarily constrained to election cycles, votes, discrete military endeavors, etc. The project of altering the fundamental perceptions and premises underlying the American popular consciousness is a long one. Possibly it is futile. But the idea that the American electorate--the American mind, if such a thing exists--is currently capable of supporting or sustaining meaningful, essential, fundamental change is a fantasy and nothing more. The nature of our problems and the scope of our wrongdoing is entirely beyond the farthest boundaries of ordinary discussion in America today. The first step toward change is to expand the capacity of Americans to imagine something different. Slow, quixotic, and likely hopeless. But that is the task at hand.
Tuesday, January 30, 2007
Notes and Premises
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71 comments:
exactly. i suspect it's only vanity that requires us to be the ones who witness earth-shattering change in our lifetimes. hardly any different to want to lay claim to laying the foundations. now now now now now!
which, in my usual mode, rings a non sequitur...
"you make time seem so important. 'i must change my clothes now!' 'i must make my entrance now!' but life is not a succession of urgent nows. it is a listless trickle of why-should-i's."
Beautiful essay. I don't necessarily agree with you on some things, but you and Arthur Silber and antiwar.org are fighting the good, morally consistent fight. It isn't just the Republicans.
Applause applause applause
And still more applause
That humdinger tugs at my lockbox of sycophantically effusive praise. It made me feel good about myself.
Sigh. And here we go round in circles once again. Even if I concede that EVERYTHING you say here is true (and I don't, but my disagreements go beyond what can be intelligently discussed in a blog comment), I'll just quote Justin from the last thread:
"there are slight differences between the two war parties that translate into enormous differences in action"
Exactly so. I’m actually a little embarrassed that one of my “opponents” in the debate put it better than I was able to. For example, I'll take the low grade "war" with Iraq that was occurring during the Clinton administration over the current horror.
But I really think that ultimately you present a false dichotomy. There is no reason that one can't simultaneously work "to expand the capacity of Americans to imagine something different" and, at the same time, try to minimize the damage of the current system. I'm not advocating that you all go out there and campaign for the Dems. But there is plenty that can be done within the current system without getting your hands dirty. Hell, where do I hang out on line? Here, not DKos. But that doesn't, and shouldn't, stop me, from doing what (very) little I can in the context of the system as it is now. Such as doing what little I can to keep Ms. Clinton from being the Democratic nominee.
Unless, that is, you guys are all about “heightening the contradictions.” But I don’t get the sense that that is what you guys are about. Especially given that, in the instant case, “heightening the contradictions” may lead to a civilizational war with Islam that will leave hundreds of millions dead.
la rana,
Not taking a shot at you personally with what I'm about to say, but it really dovetails nicely with the one thing that I find annoying about the attitudes of people on this site, despite my wide agreement about the fundemental anaysis of the problem.
It seems, for many commenters on this site, on some level (subconciously, I'll grant you) that "feel[ing] good about myself" trumps actually taking steps NOW to try to advert armeggedon.
lordy! as if the notion that bush' war in iraq was "poorly executed" oughtn't trigger a bit o' introspection! its lesson extracted, abstracted and reapplied in multiple dimensions. as you know, brushfires are good.
i wonder if it's uniquely american to avoid fatalism as if it were the plague. i also wonder if it's not a pathos.
But I guess what really bothers me is this: despite, as I said, some disagreements, on the whole I agree with at least 90% of what you say here. It IS a good post. It's just that your conclusions about the hopelessness of doing ANYTHING within the current system don't follow.
One last point then I'll shut up, at least until someone responds. Regarding those small (but real) differences between the parties, I decided to look at the signatories on the infamous Project for a new American Century statement of principles. http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm While a few of the names I didn't recognize, of the names I was familiar with, not a one was a D.
I’d agree with you about the primary task at hand. I still disagree that you shouldn’t push for one party or the other on occasion if you think the differences at the margins will make a difference in the real world. It is not hard to pull a lever or whatever every once in a while, so it isn’t like you have to do one or the other but not both. Wait, are you even saying that?
I would also suggest that the primary task at hand that you referred to is probably not as far off as it seems. If you draw a line from Vietnam, through Latin America, and to Iraq you can see some progress in the American public. And you also see that in the elections where basically half the population stays out of it. That is called voter apathy most of the time and the people abstaining are considered to be disinterested non participants. I disagree, another way to look at that is that people are consistently voicing their opinion that they don’t think it matters who gets in and that they don’t want to support any of them. Looked at this way, the winner of virtually every American election for quite some time has been the candidate “no confidence.” (And yes, I also realize that a good portion of those non-voters really are just apathetic and disinterested in politics, but compared to other democracies, including our own going backward in time, we have a low level of turnout.)
Larry: I think you fail to understand IOZ's argument in crucial ways (and mine, too, to the extent it is the same). I may post about some of these issues in the next few days; I don't have time to go into all my reasons right now.
But about this:
"It seems, for many commenters on this site, on some level (subconciously, I'll grant you) that "feel[ing] good about myself" trumps actually taking steps NOW to try to advert armeggedon."
"Seems," sir? "Subconsciously," sir? I find it altogether intriguing that you appear to have greater access to the subconscious processes of other commenters than they themselves do.
This is a prime example of a fallacy we might designate thusly: Ad Hominem's Bedraggled Third-Cousin, Which Seeks to Intimidate by Means of Admittedly Groundless Speculation About the Psychologies of Others, Rather than Addressing Facts and Argument.
I always enjoy spoon-bending tricks, although it would increase my enjoyment immensely if, you know, the spoon actually bent.
For shame. Pick up an elementary logic text at your earliest convenience. A book of etiquette might also come in handy.
Larry: You continue to miss some fundamental points-even historical points. That low level war you poo poo potentially killed a lot of people without changing the Iraqi regime one bit. Kosovo is sitll wracked with internecine violence and displacement of populations. Democratic candidates are largely tripping over themselves to position their party for an Iranian adventure. Finally, exactly how are the Democrats really doing anything but feeble posturing to end the War in Iraq-and more importantly, preventing future wars? We don't see too much action beyond symbolic "resolutions" and the like. The Democratic Party merely wants to be in charge of the warmaking machinery and the profit opportunities. Nothing else. An awful lot of blood can be laid directly at the hands of the Demcoratic Party-because they are proud, 100% supporters of the American Exceptionalist Empire project. Why are we supposed to be so enamored with this? Maybe heightening the contradictions is the only solution in a society gone power mad on its own delusions of grandeur.
Logic and consistancy aren't exactly tools in the pwoggie toolbox. But reall, Lar is just engaging the the politics of fear that his brethren learned from their republican friends.
Fer instance: The local DFL 'round these parts despise IRV. They shout: "Vote for us or DOOMSDAY!" at every opportunity. Dems have no ideas except 'we're not republicans.'
Thats why we got IRV passed this year and that's also why we're going to get is passed in other cities. People are looking for solutions. The Dems offer airwar instead of groundwar. What people want is no-war.
To be clear, as if I weren't already, "the current system," as the saying goes, is itself the problem. "Working within the system" is like taking the cocktail but still fucking without a condom.
Arthur,
Perhaps Alan (and a few other commenters) needs those etiquette lessons (a heck of a lot more than I, in fact). Frankly it's a little annoying that my fairly mild cemment on those lines is seen as problematic, while others seem free to slime me not just with what they speculate my position is, but rather with what I've specifically disavowed.
But you and our host, and a few others, are not the ones engaging in those particular tactics, so fair enough. I'll save that sort of shit for the people who deserve it, like our idiot friend Alan.
IOZ,
You were perfectly clear. That doesn't IMO invalidate my point. I'm not suggesting you register Dem and start working the polls. As for your analogy, you have a way with clever analogies which sound great but aren't apt. I might say that what I'm asking you to do is the equivelant of working on a better drug cocktail while ALSO encouraging safe sex practices. But I'm not going to pretend that's a perfect analogy either.
Let me ask you this. Seriously, I'm hoping for a real answer, not just a throw away remark. Set aside personalities or parties for a second. Which was better for the people of Iraq - the low grade war of the Clinton era, even combined with living under Saddam, or the horror of today (and it's gonna get worse, no matter what anyone does now)?
Larry,
It was ironic. On that note, your insistence on challenging IOZ's specific prescriptions when he is being intentionally vague is what makes your posts such a bore.
You've at least answered the age-old question: What happens when obtuse meets ambiguous? Answer: Not much.
Larry: I think a more apt question may be-what do the Serbs think about your glorious Great Empathizer-or the Kosovar Albanians not involved in drug running and human slavery? Or the Vietnamese (millions killed during a war started by YOUR glorious party).
nice post ioz. . . my only response would be. . .
I'm pretty sure I'm benefiting from all that.
YF
La rana,
As to initially being obtuse about your post up thread, I plead guilty as charged. Yes, I get it now.
As to being obtuse regarding our host, and Arthur, and all the rest here, not so much. "Intentionally vague?" Maybe so, but if so to what purpose? If IOZ has some wonder program, I'd like to hear it. But I'm inclined to take him at his word - he says he's all about "expand[ing] the capacity of Americans to imagine something different, and I believe him, and, you know what, I'm ALL FOR IT, as I think I've made abundantly clear. However, I don't need to know the specifics of that project to suggest (1) that it's too little, too late, and (2) that it doesn't preclude some of what I'm suggesting. The vagueness isn't my fault, and I can only respond to what he writes.
brian,
This isn't an abstract contest to determine which party has more blood on it's hands. Its a question of "how do we stave off armeggedon?" Now it's certainly possible that the answer is "we can't," and then we are all wasting our breath. But, as someone up thread correctly implied about me, I'm not big on fatalism.
As for the rest, the architects of the Vietnam fiasco are dead and gone. As for Clinton, I won't defend his record, except to repeat that in terms of RESULTS, i.e., many fewer people dead by our actions, I'll take his over Bush's record.
Larry,
Thanksralph!
Larry wants some specifics. Good, so do I. The Democrats could start with the program set forth here. Note Lindorff's conclusion:
"One thing is certain: If the Democrats, having control of both House and Senate, fail to act on these three critical issues-ending the war, revoking the president's claim to dictatorial powers, and initiating impeachment proceedings-they will have sealed their fate come 2008 as an anachronism, not a party, and will deserve to be abandoned by all thinking voters."
There *are* significant actions the Democrats could take *right now*. Those three would be a wonderful start. But the Democrats won't lead on any of them. The critical question is: *Why* won't they?
The answer is very simple: they don't want to dismantle the mechanisms of massive government power. They only want to be make certain they control those mechanisms *themselves*. That is, of course, another way of saying that the system itself is the problem. And the Democrats, as one of the deeply embedded institutions of power, are part of that system.
More to come on all this in coming days at my place...
IOZ,
What's worse?
To be beaten to death with a baseball bat by George Clooney.
or
To be beaten to death with a crowbar by Bruce Willis.
Keep in mind: This is Lar's conception of the wonders of the demofuckwit party.
If pigs began to fly and the Democrats showed some leadership, there is one other issue they desperately need to address: Iran.
They should rescind the Iraq authorization of force resolution (Lindorff's reference is to the earlier one, passed right after 9/11 -- both should be burned to a crisp), since Bush uses the authorizations to maintain that he already has authority to attack Iran (and anyone else he chooses). And they should pass resolutions stating that, if Bush attacks Iran in the absence of a Congressional Declaration of War (remember those?), that will be grounds for immediate impeachment.
And they should draft articles of impeachment NOW, just in case they need them. And they should publish them in every major newspaper, and read them on television every night.
I have still more specifics, but that should get them going.
I surrendered the word "progressive" a while ago, & prefer to distinguish activists working for change (whether the death penalty, undamming a river (the San Joaquin!) or what-have-you, & the liberal progressive blabosphere.
how do ya tell a progressive from an anti-war activist? ask 'em about Afghanistan .. . or Plan Columbia ... or what we're planning for Africa . . .
(p.s. to Arthur S. since youre reading here - thx for a truly great series!)
I posted a few things last week touching on the consequences of Clinton's "Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act" (which purported to 'reform' (aka 'limit') habeas corpus):
http://con-stellations.blogspot.com/
Arthur,
That's what I'm talking about, engage, don't just ridicule.
IMO repealing the authorization of force resolution is the most important first step. Despite all that I've said, I'm (almost) as skeptical as you as to whether that will happen.
But one thing that the Dems are doing now that MIGHT help (if one assumes that, for whatever motives, bad or good, the Dems have some aversion to Armageddon) is the oversight. Not in and of itself so much, but, depending upon what gets dredged up, setting the stage for stronger actions down the line. For a lot of reasons, impeachment is an obvious non-starter right now, but the more that comes to light, the better the chance that it will succeed down the road.
Of course, it would help if Clinton and some others didn't constantly put gasoline on the fire with bellicose talk about Iran. If she ends up the Dem nominee, I may just be forced to agree with you guys. Though I'd still take her over McCain.
In our hearts, all of us, I think, would be thrilled if the current parties stepped back from the brink, even for the wrong reasons. We just have varying degrees of skepticism as to whether that's likely to happen.
On an unrelated personal point, I think that, for some commenters (not you Arthur), I am an easy stand in for the typical Democratic activist that dares not show his head here. Now I realize that it's cathartic to let out frustrations, but do you really think that such responses are productive in winning hearts and influencing minds? I'm looking at you Alan.
oh for fuck's sake, larry.
really now, the only other people i hear complaining about how much their pussies hurt* are republicans.
and so the list of dem/neocon similarities grows.
*i.e., "winning hearts and influencing minds"
Max,
Actually, Arthur was the first person on this thread to voice a complaint about people unfairly casting aspersions, directing his comment towards me.
But go on, you're doing good work for the war parties here, intentionally or not.
"Mr. President, we face a choice between two admittedly regrettable, but nonetheless distinguishable postwar environments. One, where you got twenty million people killed. The other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed!"
Democracy is grand, i'n't it?
Larry: Our point is that the oversight is meaningless if it is completely ineffectual and does not involve impeachment or any exercise of control of the purse strings. This President belives he is annointed by GOD-he is ignoring your precious "oversight."
As soon as black ops stage a "terrorist incident" 90% of your Party will fall right in line slavering for the blood of the "mad mullahs." I know this, because I used to think like this! I credit people like roger, Arthur Silber, Mr. Perrin, and our host with opening my eyes and making me question some of the underlying, shared values of the American Imperial project. And, unlike yourself, I honestly doubt that the mythical "American People" are willing to do similar questioning of what we have been taught to believe.
I honestly wonder if it is too late for "impeachment." I think we are past that...and approaching a far more dangerous point. What if the Democrats show some gumption and move on impeachment. Then...a "terrorist bombing" occurs. I think the current regime would try to do a National Unit Government of some kind-even through some kind of coup.
larry... please!
it's simple. if there's to be an elegant and meaningful distinction between dems and neocons or cons, you can't be content to choose the lesser of two evils. when confronted with such a decision, you can always choose neither. you might die. lots of other people might die. but have a little faith. i mean, really... it's not unlike the rationale for opposing the nsa's various wiretap schemes.
I'm still not finding the discussion very illuminating, although maybe it's because as a red diaper baby I've been listening to this crap just about every day of my life.
Impeachment is a somewhat interesting tangent. I've been reading myself to sleep with T.H. White's Breach of Faith, and one passage in particular stood out to me. It's summer of 1974, Doar and Rodino have just laid out their exhaustive case, and the articles are being debated. Kastenmeier of Wisconsin gets up (from Feingold's present seat if I'm not mistaken). "Impeachment," he says, "is the one way in which the American people can say to themselves that they care enough about their institutions, their own freedom and their own claim to self-government, their own national honor."
The fact that Bush and Cheney have not been impeached isn't a commentary about the Democratic Party per se. It's a commentary about American society. It says, we are rotten, lazy, disengaged. We no longer care sufficiently about our institutions, our own freedom, our claim to self-government, our national honor. So all this business of Donkles may be an evasion of the core issue, which the top post gives voice to nicely, but which has I think been obscured in general frustration with the Kostomy bag. The core issue is that we've ceased to function effectively as a political society, and that's what needs to be rebuilt, not a Democratic majority in Congress.
M-A,
That comes closer to my core belief than anything else on this thread. I realize that it may be tough to square that with everything else that I've said in this thread, but I suppose it's the triumph of hope over reason.
But, that being said, yeah, we are probably screwed.
And there ARE a few voices out there, more Dems than Reps, but some Reps as well, who are at least trying to address that point. Leahy's eviceration of Gonzalez, Hagel in several venues, etc. Let's at least give credit to those people, even if they aren't willing to question the core beliefs in America's role in the world.
People unwilling to question core beliefs are unworthy of credit.
Yeah IOZ, that's where I guess you and I differ. I simply think that that way of thinking is not just wrong but counterproductive. The biggest problem I have with you guys is, ironically enough, the same problem I have with the Ds and the Rs and just about the whole bunch. This dead certainty, my way or the highway, no compromise, no humility, approach to politics.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
Hats off to you IOZ and Mr. Silber. You are two of the smartest guys out there discussing Iraq in its greater context of American exceptionalism and Aggressive global intervention and I applaud and thank you for that. I'd also like to state my agreement with what you said about waiting for the election cycle to get me some a' that change. Your right, the great two party scam of defusing social-change-energy into the mostly useless electoral system is the primary hinderance to realizing change.
But, as long as you tar and feather democrats by the caseload and ignore the efforts of Sen. Feingold you do your arguments a disservice. See: http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/statements/07/01/20070130.htm
As far as impeachment goes as I understand, Spkr Pellosi made Rep. Conyers promise it was off the table, but there are some noble dems in the great state of Arizona who are working real hard to get an impeachment resolution to vote in the house.
The idea that politicians will take the lead in anything, especially impeachment is naive. The great pwogwessive (what is the genesis of that particular slur, anyway) achievements in this country be it abolitionists, labor reform, civil rights, or ending the Vietnam war sprung from radical social movements.
Brian,
Yes, oversight by itself is not enough. I'm hoping it may lead to more. A vain hope, perhaps, but hope is better than despair.
Hope and despair--the favorite bywords of political oratory--the falsest of false dichotomies--the phony psychological underpinnings of adherence to dogma ("core beliefs," we're calling them here).
The tagline of this blog is a joke about Kant, but it's also not a joke.
No larry. On one side (both D and R) you have the Imperial Project, American Exceptionalism: more money on "defense" than the rest of the world combined, secret courts, rendition, torture, corporate hacks, bases in dozens of countries, spies overthrowing governments left and right (or conspiring with the most obnoxious, fascist elements of said victims' governments), aggressive war that has killed tens of thousands....and, on the other hand, you have a small (but hopefully growing) chorus of people shouting. No! Empire and war and American Exceptionalism are not the answer.
I love the moral equivalency you are trying to claim here. How many secret prisons does IOZ run? IOZ "merely" says "leave people alone. Don't set up a police state" Your party says "We will have a more efficient, properly administered (with plenty of career) Empire. thanksralph, indeed.
You acknowledge at the end of your post that change is the first step. Do you not think that the Democratic party or some of its leading figures might not also show a similar capacity? E.g. don't you think that the Al Gore of today is different from the Al Gore of 2000?
M-A:
OT or maybe not so OT re Red Diaper Baby ... know anyone who grew up in Croton-on-Hudson, NY or thereabouts? Anyone whose parents were at the Peekskill riots? Anyone whose parents lost their security clearances under Truman and had to wait for Ike to lay the groundwork for them to get them back? Anyone who answered the knock on the door and found a couple of men in gray suits (the black helicopters of that time)?
regards
diaspora_dan@hotmail.com
Myfavoritemarxist:
No.
ioz - that was asked of m-a, not you. But I'm glad to know I'm your favorite Marxist.
Oh and btw, I'm glad to see that even though my comment about your long-standing opposition against American exceptionalism in the thread before this, you did choose to use this term in this thread:
"The far more disastrous consequence from a human perspective is that because we believe our bromides, believe in our goodness, and believe in the legitimacy of our moral pretensions, we feel as justified as any other zealot in raining blood and fire on non-belieivers, since we believe that a failure to convert is spiritual doom anyway.
That sort of exceptionalism lead us into a militarized national security state, a garrison economy, a many-trillion-dollar military complex, a series of fruitless border skirmishes with the Soviet Union that, in their worst instance, killed millions of Vietnamese. "
This kind of passage is where you really start leaving Mencken behind and start approaching Twain. Some day, you will write your "Man Who Corrupted Pittsburgh" and we will all be proud to say we knew you when ...
regards
Brian,
No "moral equivelance." It just seems a damn shame that someone like IOZ who really does have a pretty good understanding of the situation is prevented by his own rigidity and uncopmpromising nature from taking a contructive role in stopping the Iranian madness. Because your damn "small chorus" isn't growing fast enough to stop it.
If you want an example of someone who shares your views (and they are my views to, to a large extent), but is doing something CONSTRUCTIVE instead of just fulminating about those crazy Kos kids, head over to our friend Arthur's site. He has no more love for the Democratic party than you guys do, but at least he is talking about construtive ways to stop the madness in the context of the present system, while still advocating and working for something better, though he obviously has different ideas than I do about how to get there.
If the rush to war with Iran is to be stopped, it's gonna be stopped by imperfect vessels like Leahy, Hagel, and Feingold. It's not going to be stopped because IOZ's eloquence convinces the American people that this notion of American Exceptionalism has some unfortunate consequences.
And IOZ, I'd probably shut the hell up if you, like your friend Arthur, made just one damn constructive suggestion as to how to stop the rush to war with Iran, instead of your admirable (no sarcasm, there are, afterall, reasons why I keep coming back here) effort to remake the American polity.
Larry: While I appreciate the kind words, I would strongly prefer that you not employ my work as a means of criticizing my friend IOZ and others here. I would hope you could find another way to make the argument (or just make it more generally, without that specific).
People are variable; we all bring different strengths (and weaknesses) to the discussion. We all contribute to the conversation, often in very different ways. And certainly, IOZ's general purposes are mine. In the end, what matters is the totality that results, and what effects it might have.
To be perfectly honest, even though I laid out a program that ought to be the Democrats' highest priority right now, I do not have even the slightest of convictions that they will adopt even one part of it. I *hope* that they might, but that is a very different thing.
As I said a while ago in a different comment thread here, I think that only civil disobedience on a truly massive scale will stop the warmongering establishment. I could urge some of the liberal-progressive bloggers to take up that cause -- and what do you think my chances of success would be? Close to zero, I suspect.
And if the American public generally is very, very far away from that kind of very large peaceful protest...well, perhaps that tells us the most important thing about where we are.
The war with Iran is already happening, you dunce. It is already underway. Of course, you may now subject it to your Birkenau was better for the Jews than Treblinka moral scrutiny. "Ah, but if Senator Clinton has her way, with the help of Hagel, we will only starve the Iranians and kill them in small numbers in secret special operations missions.
But thanks, at very least, for proving what we already knew: that the progressive cause is "Empire, but neat, untroubling, and well-managed."
IOZ,
But thanks for proving that if I want to read someone who is actually trying to make a fucking difference in the world, as opposed to just fuliminating about those crazy Kos kids, throwing out the old Ad Homs, making witty but ultimatlely meaningless little analogies, and drooling through his mouth as we rush towards armeggeddon, I came to the wrong place. But hey, as you sit in the ruins a few years from now, you'll be able to congratulate yourself that YOU didn't make any compromises, and YOU don't have any blood on your hands.
Anyway, that's it for me. Try to have a reasonable discussion, even agree with 90% of your ideology, and get shit on by all concerned (except Arthur) because I happen to disagree with the other 10% and have the unmitigated gall to want to actually STOP THE FUCKING war, well, fuck it, I'm wasting my time and yours. God, it's depressing that the few peopel who actually seem to GET IT are loons with no social graces who don't seem to understand the first thing about persuading people who disagree with them, as opposed to preaching to the choir.
But let me leave you with one thought. Set aside all of the rest, what to do now, etc, etc. Let's assume that you are right, that anything other than working for a new political order is hopeless and morally compromised. Let's get to that nice sounding last paragrpah of your post. If your goal really is to "expand the capacity of Americans to imagine something different," then maybe you need to stop blogging and let someone else do it. Because YOU SUCK AT IT.
I agree with everything you say and I say that as one who was profoundly ignorant of the depth of the democratic subservience to making war. I had a conversation with someone who told me the democrats were really no different from the republicans which I hotly denied. But I told myself, okay, the democrats are now the majority in congress and the proof is in the pudding as they say. So I waited to see if the democrats would do anything to bring the troops home from Iraq. They have done nothing but talk, and so now I can see how wrong I was. As far as Jim Webb is concerned the first thing he said in his little tirade was something along the lines of how great a nation we were and that was it for me as I have heard that one too many times. Thanks much for the excellent and honest post.
Arthur,
I appreciate everthing you say. But, as much as I don't want to come between you and your buddy, you might do your cause some good to let him know that his rhetorical strategy is HIGHLY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. Just compare your latest, rather constructive response, with his snide attack on me (which also suffers from the defect of being unrelated to any actual postion that I've taken).
As for the civil disobedience suggestion, you may be right, and you may be wrong. It would be nice to know what IOZ's take on that is, but he hasn't deigned to tell us. To busy yammering about those crazy Kos kids, and beating up on people who for the most part FUCKING AGREE WITH HIM.
This site more and more reminds me of some arcane lefist discussion group from 60 years ago, where the Stalinists accuse the Trtoskyites of insufficient fidelity to the cause. Not a comparision our host will be happy with, but, I think, an apt one.
"The first step toward change is to expand the capacity of Americans to imagine something different. Slow, quixotic, and likely hopeless. But that is the task at hand."
what ???
"imagine something different "??
how utterly bankrupt
the florish of a solitary "superior" spirit
quixotic ???
hardly
with such cleared eyed understanding of the status quo ..
more
like some stoic roman freed man
about to turn inward after octavian swallowed the republic
larry: you probably won't read this. But, our problem is that your imperfect vessels are eagerly supporting, funding, cheerleading for more war. Why do they deserve any support? Their words are just window dressing for business as usual warmongering. Your imperfect vessels are deeply cracked and brimming over with the koolaid of pwogginess.
And, as for anonymous. Sure. Your last sentence describes me. I don't know what to do. I'm a placid, risk-averse low level bureaucrat in a local government. I don't do risk. My complaints are indeed somewhat pathetic. I'm not sure, though, that protests will work (at least not yet). I certainly don't think that larry's "imperfect vessel" politics will do a single damn thing. We can't claim conversation will "solve" anything. But, at least it's a start. Or, at a minimu, it helps keep me sane.
oh for fuck's sake.
larry,
you're complaining about quasi-impotency when quasi-impotency is precisely the point! it's immoral to exert power over others. we don't have the fucking right to fuck with other people! what's so fucking hard to understand?
Max,
You're making a noble effort, but Lar isn't interested in understanding squat. He's just another useless pwoggie blowhard, pissed off that other people are actually doing things in the real world. All Lar wants to do is quibble and whine and blow smoke. The only real use for pwoggies, or for any stripe of mushmouthed do-nothing, is as objects of ridicule and scorn. You can lead a pwog to knowledge, but you can't make him think.
Lar,
Thanksralph!
Alan is right, unfortunately. The whinnying above is the way that the liberaltarian phantom was conjured: "We agree on everything but the important stuff!" Such jilted lovers, the pwogs.
Maximo and a few others know that I'm only following through on an old, pre-blog promise: that if Democrats ever acquired majorities, I'd treat them with the same rigorous disdain as I used to treat the Oliphant.
What? "Notes and Penises" ?????
Oh - "premises"!
Never mind.
Larry:
is actually trying to make a fucking difference in the world
How much heedless evil, how much wanton destruction, caused by people who just "want to make a difference." Who want to "speak truth to power." Who want to "effect positive change." Who'd rather cloak themselves in bromides than admit that their flavor of imperialism is functionally different from the opponent's.
"I fucked up."
"Yeah."
"I was just trying to help."
"Yeah, well, that's usually when people fuck up."
- David Mamet, Spartan
"Such jilted lovers, the pwogs."
Though on the bright(??) side, the person in question has managed to single-handedly decuple the comment volume on this blog. You're that much closer to being a real intarw3b celebrity!
And just for the record, I hate the word "pwog" in all of its sundry formulations. I don't know why, but it reads like fingernails across a blackboard sound. Which may actually be more fitting than anything has a strict right to be.
pwog bad
hat tip worse
pissed off that other people are actually doing things in the real world.
Now that's fucking funny. Pissing and moaning about political impurity now counts for "doing things in the real world"?
Anyway, back to your daisy chain. Don't mind me. But hey, where's Dennis Perrin? Maybe he can spice up all of this with his special blend of name-dropping p&m.
Political impurity? Lordy, who opened the barn doors around here?
If a libertarian were seeking purity, would he be making friendly-like with all these red diaper doper babies, in Mikey Savage's inimitable phrasing? It isn't purity we seek--just a drizzling of smarts.
ah, the Democrats are too busy, ioz, "doing things"...like rattling chains for war with Iran and expressing shock at the idea of not "supporting the tropps" and positioning themselves for better corner offices on K Street.
'progress will never rest in the hand that has no head' - Slug
I prefer the transgress. progress is just more of the same fucking shit.
pwogs/dems, I've found, lack a fairly firm grasp on reality and of their very own nature. republicans seemingly know all too well of the 'evil' they seek to banish.
I like to think of the american experiment as part of the best political and philosophical thinking the planet has seen. and it was the best because it was the most loose, it held key redundancies; it allowed for far more elegant solutions to our problems than we're apparently willing to imagine today.
all too often we look up, rather than looking around, when faced with a problem. because it is far too easy.
how much safer does one feel or imagine themselves to be because of what our government has done in Iraq, or otherwise abroad? before Iraq? how about during Gulf War 1?
or because of seat belt enforcement? or not smoking in...bars!?! or thanks to warning labels? how much more efficient and organized is my life because of proper planning and codes? ask yourself: if the federal government dissolved tomorrow morning, how better or worse off would your life be? just gone. poof. vaporized. would you notice? (we'd obviously have to send the media with them)
life would go on.
growth and progress occurs in the interstitches of things, not in the architecture.
Wow! Quite the little circle jerk you've got going on here. And while I agree with just about everything in the original post, all the comments that follow just confirm my belief that Armageddon, in whatever form, would probably be for the best.
Larry,
Thanksralph!
Alan,
You're slipping. There was no intervening comments of mine between your last snide little commewnt directed at me and this one. Or did you (chortle) think that reese was me? Whatever else you think about me, I do at least haver the fucking balls to post under my own name. And whatever else you think about my views, a lot of people share them; most of them just don't bother posting here.
But really my point in posting again here (this most likely will be the last time) is to suggest that some of you may want to click on the link and check out my most recent post on my blog. I'm not saying it's exactly going to surprise you, or change anyone's mind (it's not meant to), but in any event it does, for better or worse, represent an elaboration of, and further development of, my thoughts.
Not that I think that Alan, or even most of you here, are going to be interested, but for those that are, there it is.
And while, as I said, I'm not going to engage in the give and take here, I'll certainly visit on occasion, as, despite the fact that he can be a superficial asshole at times, IOZ does have some useful insights. You, Alan, not so much.
And Alan, I can save you some time. Yeah, yeah, I know, “Larry, Thanks Ralph.” Do you have that macroed yet?
Well, brian. I'm an low level ex-local Government bureaucrat. I feel like we should exchange Xmas cards now. Good to see that IOZ really does celebrate diversity at home... ;)
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