Saturday, November 24, 2007

Is. Was. Ever Shall Be.

Hi, my name is Paul Davies, and even though I've never done any original research myself, I have totally written stuff about the Anthropic Principle, which is totally not a half-assed attempt by scienticians in an age of renewed religiosity to pimp their own relevance by proposing a vast, cosmic tautology wherein things are the way they are because they were the way they were which means the must have been the way they must have been. Follow? Let me break it down for you. See, if things hadn't happened the way they happened, then things wouldn't be the way they are. They would be different! And that, like, proves that present outcomes dictate past conditions rather than the other way around. Or something like that. Frankly, I get confused when I try to explain it to a bunch of laymen like you rubes, but I assure you of one thing: It is not question-begging. It is very serious, scientifical analysis, or my name isn't Paul Davies.

Look. You might think I sound like a stoner drop-out who's read one too many Timothy Ferris pop-sci texts and spirituality gobbledygook in order to come up with some crackpot theory that quantum mechanics, the Catholic Church, and Aboriginal dreamtime all combine to necessitate a man-centered universe. But that's not the case. That's not it at all. All I'm saying is that physical laws should have an explanation from within the universe and not involve appealing to an external agency. I'm mostly saying that because, frankly, I couldn't even make it through Godel, Escher, Bach, which was, to be honest, a little too deep for me, even though my graduate students keep telling me that all proofs rest on externalities and that to try to prove something otherwise is necessarily to engage in tautology, casuistry, circular argument, and bad faith. Yeah, well, who's the director and who's the fucking TA, smart guy? Here is my point: Faith. Stephen Jay Gould. The Laws of Physics. The Goldilocks Universe. Class dismissed.

51 comments:

island said...

Hi, my name is Paul Davies, and even though I've never done any original research myself...

Finding the first false statement in the first sentence of an attack on a man that writes about the anthropic principle... tells quickly me that this guy writing this blog is an ideologically motivated liberal airhead, who cares more about fighting a culture war, than he does about science, or research or anything that really matters... without even reading any further.

Now, let's see if I'm right.

IOZ said...

Aw, that's cute.

island said...

Thanks, because that's quite obviously what I was going for.

IOZ said...

Death of the author, etc.

island said...

Hey, I'm not the one who made the stereotyical move.

IOZ said...

The what?

island said...

It just wouldn't sound right if I said that I had a sticky P key.

Adam said...

you're outa your element, DOnny.

g marx the spot said...

tells quickly me that this guy writing this blog is an ideologically motivated liberal airhead

Liberal airhead! First a dhimmicrat, now a liberal airhead! Has anyone called you a Kossack yet? Is that the next spot in the trophy case?

Makes laugh me.

g marx the spot said...

tells quickly me that this guy writing this blog is an ideologically motivated liberal airhead

Liberal airhead! First a dhimmicrat, now a liberal airhead! Has anyone called you a Kossack yet? Is that the next spot in the trophy case?

Makes laugh me.

island said...

Hey, I qualified my statements, and I'm easy anyway, so I'll just let the man off the hook with a gentle note that the anthropic principle is an ideological statement that a physicist named Brandon Carter was forced to make in order to counter-act the equally absurd theoretical projections that come from thinking in the extreme opposite to geocentrism, aka, "conpernicanism", or whatever.

Anyway, his point was about the willful ignorance of relevant facts that scientists "skeptics" and "anticentrists" alike share, which causes them to say stuff that makes them look like idiots.

Just sayin... be careful to google for scholarly papers by PhD physicist Dr. Paul Davies, and then look for ground-breaking work concerning quantum fields in curved space-time and the Bunch-Davies vaccum solution that is currently used by cutting-edge inflationary theory researchers.

Paul Davies is one of a very few that is willing to look at the inconvenient but commonly known facts of the observed universe through the eyes of our best theoretical models, and he says that he's an atheist, but that really doesn't matter, since he is only restating Carter's point.

Just be careful that you don't RE-prove it... ;)

island said...

"conpernicanism"

Sorry, there's no NP in copernicanism, if that's even a word?

My N key just has a mind of its own... ;)

AlanSmithee said...

I'd love to point out the multitude of logical and factual fallacies contained in islands posts but he's such a fucking dipshit and, besides, what one more droolcase in the world, more or less.

island said...

I'd love to point out the multitude of logical and factual fallacies contained in islands posts...

But you can't, while vast experience with neodarwinians and theoretical physicists alike tells me that you can't back-up the drivel and drool that you "would" also *stereotypically* spew-out... IF only you actually had the guts to try.

IOZ said...

Vast experience with neodarwinians and theoretial physicists! Jesus Christ, man, someone needs to buy you a shot and a beer.

island said...

Been there, done that to death, but thanks anyway.

AlanSmithee said...

It's vast! VAST, I tell you!

island said...

Wow, alan, that was an incredibly powerful rebuttal.

NOT!

Brian said...

Island is simply too profound for the rest of us:

The anthropic principle is continually thrust to the surface of the relevant fields of physics and evolutionary science, yet scientists dogmatically ignore the relevant implication for "biocentric preference"... in spite of the fact that it is highly probable that a true anthropic constraint on the forces of the universe will necessarily include the human evolutionary process, which indicates that there exists a mechanism that enables the universe to "leap".

Brian said...

Island is simply too profound for the rest of us:

The anthropic principle is continually thrust to the surface of the relevant fields of physics and evolutionary science, yet scientists dogmatically ignore the relevant implication for "biocentric preference"... in spite of the fact that it is highly probable that a true anthropic constraint on the forces of the universe will necessarily include the human evolutionary process, which indicates that there exists a mechanism that enables the universe to "leap".

island said...

No, but it helps if you can understand what the mechanism is, how it works, and the scientific validity that the physics has:

http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2006-02/msg0073320.html

You are, of course free to do what no PhD theorist has ever been able to do, which is to refute the physics. Simply goto the PhD moderated research group, above, and see if you can get a rebuttal past the moderator... ;)

OR... go here, and do it without fear of pre-screening by a mod.

http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/

Regardless, I do not need that interpretation of Einstein's theory to prove any points, but it's nice to see that you made it as far as the intro to my blog anyway... ;)

http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2006-02/msg0073320.html

Check out more-layman-ish' postings entitled; "The Goldilocks Enigma", and "A Very Strong Anthropic Principle", to find factual information that is relevant to the subject. Be sure not to neglect extremely important information that is linked within those postings.

And FYI: I'm not the "bad guy".

CB said...

Love the blog, ioz, but you have misstepped here. HINT: claiming that Paul Davies as "not having done any original research" is -- shall we say -- demonstrating a lack of research yourself?

And characterizing science popularizer Paul Davies' attitude as "I get confused when I try to explain it to a bunch of laymen like you rubes," also kind of ignores the fact that he's spent most of his life writing books aimed at explaining modern physics to people who don't have any idea what any of it means (like you, apparently).

Paul Davies' views (not condensed to a NY Times column) are here:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/bigquestions/s460625.htm

And I love how your commenters rip you apart when you suggest driving slowly, yet defend you against valid criticisms when you display complete ignorance of modern physics. Good to know that even freethinkers get their share of dittoheads (and by "good to know" i mean "quite depressing").

Google is your friend, kids. Educate yourselves

island said...

I think that the "ditto-head" problem has more to do with the ideological dogma that is inherent to topic that is being discussed, but in fairness to ioz, he didn't do anything that *allegedly* real scientists all over the internet aren't doing.

I say "allegedly real" because they aren't supposed to harbor all of those preconceived prejudices that Brandon Carter quite obviously, and righfully, accused them of having.

I'm actually very surprised to find someone who is NOT attacking Davies for all the wrong reasons. What's wrong with you that makes you real, "cb"... ?

cb said...

Easy there, oh island. Calling ioz "a liberal airhead" in your first post doesn't win you any points in the "know what the fuck you're talking about" category. And calling someone a mindless culture warrior while spouting out phrases like "ideological dogma" and "allegedly real scientists", well, perhaps it takes one to know one, mon ami.

The Anthropic Principle has been widely misused and abused by those who want "just so stories" about the greatness and inevitability and all-around divineness of human existence (see Dembski, William), and I ain't in that camp. I've always been partial to the Bill Hicks theory on the human race, myself.

island said...

No, fool, I said that ideologically motived air head is what is stereotypically indicated, and then I qualified that with... "Now, let's see". I then followed that by letting iow off the hook, but Brandon Carter, who is a highly respected physicist, is the one that called scientists ideologiclaly motivated losers first. I'm just here to prove it... ... ... ... airhead.

cb said...

Ah, clearly you're a master in the commenting-as-performance-art tradition. My apologies for intruding on (becoming part of?) the show.

island said...

I probably over-reacted that time, but the terminolgy that I use is not mine, and I get a little bent when people tag me accusingly without knowing the facts, simply because I restate a point in near identical terms that was made by a reputable scientist who was not similarly labled for it. I know that it's hard not to conclude otherwise without knowing the facts.

This "not knowing the facts" part is so completely relevant to the problem that it isn't even funny.


Brandon Carter's words highlighted:

The anthropic principle is a "Line of [cosmological] reasoning" that was put forth by Brandon Carter as, "a reaction against conscious and subconscious - anticentrist dogma", that he called, "exagerated subserviance to the Copernican Principle", which leads to absurdities by ideologically predispositioned scientists.

He was talking about counter-reactionism among scientists against old historical beliefs about geocentrism that causes them to automatically dismiss any relevance to features of the universe that also permit our existence, and this leads to equally absurd Copernican-(like) cosmological extensions, which do not agree with observation.

Carter's example was as follows:

Unfortunately, there has been a strong and not always subconscious tendency to extend this to a most questionable dogma to the effect that our situation cannot be privileged in any sense. This dogma (which in its most extreme form led to the "perfect cosmological principle" on which the steady state theory was based) is clearly untenable, as was pointed out by Dicke (Nature 192, 440, 1961).
-Brandon Carter

How Carter's point applies, including the strength of the statement, depends on the cosmological model that is being assumed, and the closest actual natural approximation to what is actually observed to be in effect is a biocentric structure principle, which produces a goldilocks enigma of commonly balanced habitable zones that appear over very specifically defined region of the observed universe.

It would appear that "being priveledged in some sense" means that we are only as priveledged as the next galaxy over within the intergalactic habitable zone of the observed universe, so there is no established reason to claim that the principle is strictly anthropic.

If anything, Carter's point is even more true and applicable today, than it was then, except that the AP is now the target of the very politicians of science who are interested only in abusing the physics to their own selfish end, and regardless of the lack of integrity that this generates.

Creationists are near-exactly only half of the problem.

puppylander said...

i'm probably out of my depth here, but when we all die off, i suppose that will be proof enough that the universe was not designed for us.

island said...

Your point probably isn't contingent to life on Earth, since the "anthropic" coincidences apply to similarly evolved galaxies and planets that appear in the habitable zone, so one planet full of life probably doesn't matter that much in the "grand scheme" or whatever.

But the physics that I previously referenced indicates that we may be necessary players in the evolutionary process of the universe, because the process of particle creation from vacuum energy has a very significant impact on the structure and symmetry of the universe... in this model, anyway.

This also causes tension between the vacuum and ordinary matter to increase as the vacuum expands, (like blowing up a balloon), so it is possible that at some point tension will become great enough that any little simulation of the big bang could serve as the needle that causes the whole shebang to blow.

In this case, the universe is configured, (not "designed"), to produce "slaves" that enable it to "leap".

Disclaimer:
This is MY personal interpretation and is subject to further proof that it won't get until there are further developments in particle physics, but like I've said... no theorist to date has ever been able to discredit the physics.

puppylander said...

that still seems consistent with an "unpointed" existence.

island said...

I don't see how you can conclude that our being here to perform a specific thermodynamic task can be be "unpointed"... ???

These environmental biologists have discovered a very *local* piece to this puzzle that might help.

puppylander said...

i'm just trying to isolate the event (link in causal chain) from its characterization (as a "task", which presupposes "pointedness"). you know, to avoid question-begging.

island said...

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "pointedness".

island said...

Oh, and assuming that my physics is the reality, then the "causal link" is a very Darwinian version of evolutionary theory, (revised to include environmentally enabled purpose in nature).

Some evobiologist has just recently come out with just such an idea, but he doesn't know much about the anthropic principle.

puppylander said...

purpose. (except "purpose" is not quite right because it doesn't really capture the notion of "directedness".)

a causal chain (or web) neither requires nor implies any purpose. participation in that causal chain likewise requires neither.

island said...

Ah, no, you need to look-up "final cause".

puppylander said...

"final cause" is also a form of question-begging.

island said...

I think that you must've missed the point that the unattaianable **goal** of the universe is absolute symmetery that can never be attained when there is an inherent asymmetry, (imbalance), in the energy of the universe.

So we periodically have a big bang which resets time while producing a slightly more symmetrical structure that increases entropy just a little bit more efficiently than its predescessor.

It's a downhill process. There is no intelligence involved, but every mechanism in the structure is "pointed" toward a goal.

island said...

There is no intelligence involved, but every mechanism in the structure is "pointed" toward a defined goal.

island said...

while producing a slightly more symmetrical structure that increases entropy just a little bit more efficiently than its predescessor.

There is also independent support for this:

This is exactly what occurred with our evolutionary leap.

Besides being predicted by the referenced physics, this is also empirically observed to have be the case when we lept from apes to harness fire... and beyond... ... ...

puppylander said...

well, as it goes, our conclusions are not so far apart. in essence, we're converging on what i'll call "permanent flux".

in any case, what davies writes about in the nytimes is not novel. his essay simply demonstrates that all his years of schooling never included intro to philosophy.

his last sentence, "until science comes up with a testable theory of the laws of the universe, its claim to be free of faith is manifestly bogus."

q.e.d. after all, the validity of testable theory implies the validity of empiricism--empiricism itself requires a kind of faith. so where does that leave us?

island said...

Ain't that the sad truth, ideological predispositioning makes for a pair of glasses that are pre-directed toward a pre-decided reality.

I think that's what you're getting at, and my answer is that the absolute exists behind the crap that we *necessarily* can't get completely off of the lense.

No arrow flies perfectly straight, but one flies more directly than the rest, and like Einstein said:

Few are those who see with their own eyes, and feel with their own hearts.
-A. Einstein

I have no clue what to do as I cannot even reason with physicists:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2007/11/o_pangloss.php#comment-652543

puppylander said...

i take back my last comment here. reading your post at that link, i'm no longer sure you and i are really on the same page.

island said...

Then you couldn't have read much of this thread, since I said most of the same things here.

puppylander said...

well, i was led to think there was something to your earlier comments because you eventually wrote: the unattaianable **goal** of the universe is absolute symmetery....

the gist of that statement is that there is no "goal" or "purpose" except the tautological kind.

this presents a puzzlement because you seem urging both that there is a purpose and that there is not a purpose.

island said...

Well, I don't see anything tautological about my statement, and I thought that I'd made it obvious that I think that there is real purpose in nature, so I guess that's the problem that I have understanding your point.

puppylander said...

yes, and what i mean is that if you really think about the "purpose" that you posit,

1. it's something of a non sequitur (in that it doesn't really answer what davies is asking about why the universe is as it is); and

2. it's rather tautological to suggest that entropy (a quality of the universe) is also its purpose. (iteratively, "why does the universe purport to entropy?" leads us to question-begging if we take your view.)

island said...

1. it's something of a non sequitur (in that it doesn't really answer what davies is asking about why the universe is as it is); and

More like... 'Why any of this?' I *can* use my "roughly"-complete and testable theory to answer why the universe is as it is, but I cannot imagine that anyone ever will come up with an explanation for why there is a "ball" that's rolling perpetually downhill in an effort to to make itself absolutely round. I can see why this would be a good goal, but I can't answer why.

I do not believe, however, that anyone is justified to ask, 'why something instead of nothing', becuase there is no evidence that "nothing" is a real condition. This comes from the false assumption that the world originates with first cause, but that's not even necessary, much less, is there any proven reason to believe it.

2. it's rather tautological to suggest that entropy (a quality of the universe) is also its purpose. (iteratively, "why does the universe purport to entropy?" leads us to question-begging if we take your view.)

I didn't though. I said that absolute symmetry, or absolute thermal equilibrium, (which is not an observed quality of the universe), is the unachievable purpose of the universe. The arrow of time points the direction of this goal, but an absolutely uniform dissemination of energy is only way to get there, so it ain't gonna happen since the imbalance is inherent.

puppylander said...

same difference.

at least we agree that davies is asking a weird question.

island said...

I think that's his weird Templeton-like way of saying that there is a very natural expectation for a dynamical structure principle that explains why the forces are configured the way that they are, rather than some other way.

It's only when you start believing without any real justification that a multiverse is THE answer that you start practicing religion.

They only have "good reason to believe* if they could qualify that with a valid theory of quantum gravity or a theory of everything.

But they can't and won't, and there are plenty who "believe" in the multiverse... trust me.

Maybe Paul just needs to learn how to speak American... he's new here... ;)

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