Thursday, March 27, 2008

The Evidence of Absence

To my knowledge, I had never read Megan McArdle until her latest, flailing attempts to justify just which sorts of past rightness and wrongness can be instructive and just which sorts should drift into our collective forgetting led her to pen some of the most curious paragraphs ever written:

Obviously, there are people who were right about the war for the right reasons, and we should examine what their thought process was--not merely the conclusions they came to, but how they got there. Other peoples' opposition was animated by principles that may be right, but aren't really very helpful: the pacifists, the isolationists, the reflexive opponents of Republicans or the US military. Within the limits on foreign policy in a hegemonic power, these just aren't particularly useful, again, regardless of whether you are metaphysically correct.

"It won't work" is the easiest prediction to get right; almost nothing does. The thought process that tells you something probably won't work is not always a good way to figure out what will, even if you were right for the right reasons, as I agree lots of people were. That's why libertarians have a great track record at predicting which government programs will fail (almost all of them) and a lousy track record at designing ones that do work.
Of course, you can understand what that first excerpted paragraph is trying to do: it's trying to draw situational limits on valid political thought. There are Republicans; we are a hegemonic power; ergo, we must argue in a world where the somewhat more militant political faction in America eggs the nation on to various aggressive foreign wars in a futile effort to maintain the current alignment of global power as the Washington consensus imagines it to be. Those are narrow straits indeed in which to argue, and since most serious and sincere opponents of the Occupation oppose it as part and parcel of a larger moral, political, and intellectual opposition to the American hegemonic project soi-même, it has the added (dis)advantage of invalidating pretty much all but the tepid, procedural opposition of certain players in Democratic politics. That is the natural goal of those who were wrong and who will not admit contrition or atonement into their universe, who wish to remain "respected" participants in the conversation. Failures of implementation or failures of design don't necessarily undermine principles. If the problem with the invasion and occupation was bad execution, then Megan McArdle and the rest of the wrong-stop train can continue the debased conversation that sees war as one more Six Sigma event, with no more moral import or actual, human toll than the production of cell phones or new processes for the Outside Sales Department.

The second paragraph then proposes a vast swath of straw men whose argument against butchering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, destroying their physical nation, sending millions into internal and external exile, and embarking upon the long-term occupation of a nation a half a world away was, in McArdle's goofy estimation, really just a variation on Murphy's Law. That is probably a pleasant fantasy for someone who principally objects to the view that the Iraq "project" was inherently doomed because that view lacks some requisite, Roccoco complexity. "Almost nothing [goes right]." Well, I guess. Doesn't it depend on the meaning of "nothing"? In any case, those like myself who said not simply that the invasion of Iraq would fail to achieve either its stated or its actual goals, but that it must fail to achieve them, were not arguing from some universalist principal of incompetence, but rather from the rich recent history of commensurate projects and their innate tendency to fail. Indeed, one of the most common charges levelled against war opponents by jingoes was that our historical analogizing was irrelevant. "Iraq is not Vietnam." "Iraq is not Algeria." "Iraq is not Afghanistan and the Soviets." Etc. And of course, Iraq turned out to be all of those things, and more--it could no more be otherwise than I could fly by flapping my arms. The people supporting invasion and occupation were the ones proposing that Iraq would be a single, vastly distant historical outlier, totally devoid of precedent or context, and those who thought that the mere incompetence of the administration, or its untrustworthiness, were substantive arguments against invading were almost universally people who wished (and still wish) to hedge their bets just in case it all worked out. McArdle says that only this latter sort are worth talking to because they were right for the right reasons, but the opposite is true.

People who supported the invasion of Iraq were fatuous, bloodthirsty, ahistorical, immoral, politically naive, callous, unthinking, reprehensible morons--to the man. The proper attitude is contrition, silence, and contemplation. Making a gaudy spectacle of having "supported" something so awful, even if only to show how smart you were to change your mind when you noticed things going south, is disgusting.

69 comments:

Professor Coldheart said...

since most serious and sincere opponents of the Occupation oppose it as part and parcel of a larger moral, political, and intellectual opposition to the American hegemonic project soi-même

Really? We're in the majority? Because every time I ask someone, "Which color of the War Party are you voting for this year, red or blue?" I get a dirty look.

IOZ said...

"serious and sincere opponents" is a small, small group indeed.

nate said...

"disgusting"-- and there you've defined McArdle. Nothing more about her needs be said. Or read.

Keifus said...

That was excellent.

cb said...

After reading a post like this, all I can say is "Thank you."

Thomas Daulton said...

The proper attitude is contrition, silence, and contemplation.

I hope you're not holding your breath waiting for those things, because you're going to be waiting a long, long time. These people take their cues from their President, the one who was literally, physically incapable of saying the words 'shame on me' : "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice -- well, don't get fooled again." Contrition is simply not an entry in their vocabulary banks, it's like they are Daleks or something.

Montag said...

The people supporting invasion and occupation were the ones proposing that Iraq would be a single, vastly distant historical outlier, totally devoid of precedent or context...

I just came.

Anonymous said...

Might I add greedy to your modifiers of "morons"? To echo a thoughtful American preacher "the chickens will come home to roost."

drip

John B. said...

Great post IOZ. Very nicely stated.

Druff said...

those like myself who said not simply that the invasion of Iraq would fail to achieve either its stated or its actual goals

Great post, but I wonder: You don't think the current situation in Iraq is truly "mission accomplished" for the Regime in all the important ways?

Anonymous said...

Yeah, those ugly pacifists really aren't very "helpful".

Who IS this person?!

Dewd, I think you were channeling Billy Joel back there when all the fun started. Ya know:
You may be wrong
I may be right
But it just might be a lunatic you're looking for.

Way to fire all of your guns at once!

Mike

Chaf said...

People who supported the invasion of Iraq were fatuous, bloodthirsty, ahistorical, immoral, politically naive, callous, unthinking, reprehensible morons--to the man. The proper attitude is contrition, silence, and contemplation.

Next time you're in San Francisco, I'd like to buy you a beer.

Anonymous said...

"You don't think the current situation in Iraq is truly "mission accomplished" for the Regime in all the important ways?"

i'm aware that you weren't asking me, but george bush's ideal iraq would be producing 20 million barrels of oil per day, while exxon and lukoil would be bathing in investment returns. as it happens, exxon and lukoil still profit (political instability without end in such an important oil-producing area has inflated prices to absurd heights).
an intractable civil war in the nation with the second largest oil reserves in the world is not what these oil barrons were going for.

Ash said...

"The people supporting invasion and occupation were the ones proposing that Iraq would be a single, vastly distant historical outlier, totally devoid of precedent or context..."

Not that I ever supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq but is that statement of yours actually true? Are there not historical examples of invasion and occupation which work? The US gaining Texas, California, and whatnot after the invasion of Mexico and occupation of Mexico city comes to mind.

Anonymous said...

bad fuckin' ass! please write a book... a big fucking book!

Druff said...

as it happens, exxon and lukoil still profit (political instability without end in such an important oil-producing area has inflated prices to absurd heights).

Right. So tell me again why the oil companies would rather have the oil spigot wide open? And what is your vision of the orderly Iraq that allows this to occur? You don't think a real, functioning Iraqi government would threaten our grip on that country's resources at all?

Fledermaus said...

"It won't work" is the easiest prediction to get right; almost nothing does.

What the hell does she mean by this? Plently of plans work. I'm planning on going home on the bus and making tacos - I'm pretty sure that plan will work. I may put in season 2 of BSG while I eat - I'm pretty sure that will work as well.

Now if I was planning on playing a round of golf on the moon - that plan is likely not to work. And people would be right to tell me so. So I wonder what Megan would think if I boldly charged ahead with the moon/golf plan, derriding those who tell me it won't work as suffering from "Fledermaus Derrangment Syndrome"?

Peter L. Winkler said...

McArdle and her ilk believe the US owns the world, everyone else is just renting.

John Onorato said...

That is one great post. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

People who supported the invasion of Iraq were fatuous, bloodthirsty, ahistorical, immoral, politically naive, callous, unthinking, reprehensible morons--to the man. The proper attitude is contrition, silence, and contemplation.

Absolutely. With ostracism from the rest of us. Instead, they get "jobs" as media lampreys.

I don't think McArdle will ever grok how goddam loathsome it is to see so many Beltway war enthusiasts doing so very very well.
-- sglover

BugBoyBlog said...

Anyone who has studied history to any reasonable degree, particularly military history, could plainly see that the Iraq war was doomed to failure. While it might be instructive for those who were wrong to follow the logic of those who were right, it isn't obtuse or complicated to understand.

Further, why can't libertarians design government programs that work? Because it is very difficult to make government programs for the simple fact that the laws of economics and politics make it so.

It takes an enormous amount of failure for a government to "go out of business," so all the political bandying, the special interests and the shear difficulties inherent in bureaucracy mean that the checks and balances provided by the marketplace simply cannot exist.

You're welcome to follow that logic.

paolaccio said...

The US gaining Texas, California, and whatnot after the invasion of Mexico and occupation of Mexico city comes to mind.

Does that seem an analogous situation to you? I mean, the great pharoah Menes also had enormous success in the upper Nile valley a few millenia ago, so obviously some invasions end well.

All snark aside, I don't get how your counterexample is relevant to the point IOZ was trying to make.

Tyler DiPietro said...

"The US gaining Texas, California, and whatnot after the invasion of Mexico and occupation of Mexico city comes to mind."

There should probably be a distinction between assimilating conquered territory into an extant nation-state and erecting a totally new one in a foreign country. Nation building has a rich history of failure, even if you only look at its most recent examples (e.g., the British and American empires). Conquest, however, has shown itself to be all too successful.

Anonymous said...

"The people supporting invasion and occupation were the ones proposing that Iraq would be a single, vastly distant historical outlier, totally devoid of precedent or context..."

"Not that I ever supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq but is that statement of yours actually true? Are there not historical examples of invasion and occupation which work? The US gaining Texas, California, and whatnot after the invasion of Mexico and occupation of Mexico city comes to mind."

Not to put words in the mouth of this most eloquent blogger, but I believe you misinterpreted this passage. He was saying that those who supported the war insisted you couldn't predict how it would go (unless you were predicting fabulous success of course) because Iraq had no historical precedents which could guide us. We had never faced such an existential menace as Saddam Hussein therefore nothing that occurred before could give us any useful lessons. (Except Chamberlain appeasing Hitler of course, that always applies.)

Anonymous said...

Greenwald at Salon sent me here.

Glad he did.

Thanks

Tim said...

Very eloquently written and a joy to read, thank you.

"The people supporting invasion and occupation were the ones proposing that Iraq would be a single, vastly distant historical outlier, totally devoid of precedent or context"

The failure to include even a token hat tip to historical precedent in the run-up to this occupation is really one of the most significant flaws in the cheerleading in my estimation.

With all the other reasonings that turned out to be false, and demonstrably so, it was that history absolutely dictated the plan would fail and yet it was still undertaken that goads me the most.

rowan said...

Greenwald fans here, IOZ? Oh my. Don't let money change ya.

nick said...

People who supported the invasion of Iraq were fatuous, bloodthirsty, ahistorical, immoral, politically naive, callous, unthinking, reprehensible morons--to the man. The proper attitude is contrition, silence, and contemplation.

I don't consider myself (too) idealistic, and yet I am still kind of dazed at the audacity of these people who have the spectacular nerve after 6 years of being incredibly fucking WRONG about goddamm nearly EVERYTHING having to do with Iraq telling us that they can decide what the right way to be right is.

It's kind of spectacular, if infuriating. You kind of have to admire it. But I hate it, and thank you for this response to such disingenuous tripe.

Anonymous said...

rowan- what's wrong with greenwald? incidentally, he also has great coverage of war "experts"

Christopher said...

I remember back in 2003 having a conversation with my dad, where he predicted that there would be no WMDs and the whole thing would be a massive clusterfuck.

I in turn, predicted that no matter how badly the war turned out, war opponents would not get the slightest bit of credit, no matter how accurately they predicted the course of the war.

Hey, if nothing else, it's fun to be right.

Anonymous said...

We had never faced such an existential menace as Saddam Hussein therefore nothing that occurred before could give us any useful lessons. (Except Chamberlain appeasing Hitler of course, that always applies.)

Now, now. Remember, for a little while -- I think maybe a week or so -- it looked as though Saddam had a fearsome arsenal of remote-controlled model aircraft. Even Hitler didn't have those. I had high school buddies who'd rig up their R/C models to shoot Estes rockets off a rail on the wing, and that's pretty fearsome shit, there. And remember, balsa is the original stealth aircraft material.

Anyway, all this backbiting is unseemly, because it looks like our man Maliki has things well in hand, and it's morning in Basra. Maybe Baghdad, too.
-- sglover

Green Eagle said...

"...all the political bandying, the special interests and the shear difficulties inherent in bureaucracy mean that the checks and balances provided by the marketplace simply cannot exist."

These would be the checks and balances in what business? Perhaps the medical care business, or the oil business, or maybe the home loan business?

It should be obvious by now that deregulating business is just issuing get out of jail cards to thieves. It is time for our government to step on predatory capitalists and step on them hard. Ten thousand people have a greater right to their jobs than one person to his 150 foot yacht.

Anonymous said...

Shorter McCardle: things are more likely to go wrong than not. That's why taxes are bad, because they cause harm and won't likely help anything. But war is different because we're a hegemony so obviously we have to go war. So shut your piehole and let's talk about the surge.

Anonymous said...

damnned good.

NutellaonToast said...

In case anyone cares, here's a shameless plug of our little blog dedicated to making Megan feel the righteous self loathing she deserves. We and critics in her comments actually got her to crawl into a hole and sulk for a short period after she just wouldn't shut up about how brilliant she was even though she totally screwed the pooch on Iraq.

We're not as eloquent as this post, but we use the f-word. Sometimes, we also post pictures of cats.

firemeganmcardle.blogspot.com

Kevin Hayden said...

The only thing that can be added to your excellent analysis is the Smedley Butler point: war is also a racket, a commercial enterprise that many have and will continue to profit from.

Keeping left and right and right and wrong in discussion and debate permits them to toil on, mining profit in the background, with corpses just another sunk cost of the business plan.

That has always been a part of the hawk ideology. They just pretend it's not central to anything, just a principle-free side effect that sensible businessmen exploit because, like Mt. Everest, it's there.

Yet it's really part of the motive of the planners. Armchair sycophants and opponents who make such claims, however, are simply dismissed as unserious and shut out of the discussion.

Anonymous said...

Brilliant, insightful, passionate, and devastatingly logical piece of rhetoric here. Such very effective filters the MSM has, to make sure such things can only be found in the blogosphere...

(I'm another visitor courtesy of Glenn Greenwald's link, BTW. I'm impressed, and think I'll be back.)

Ian said...

The surge was intended to quell a Sunni v. Shia civil war. Its consequence has been to ignite a Shia v. Shia civil war. And they call it success.

P.M.Lawrence said...

In answer to Ash's query about what made "US gaining Texas, California, and whatnot" work, the USA simply generalised John Buchan's remarks towards the end of the chapter on Ireland of his biography of Cromwell: "Any scheme of government based solely on the interests of the resident alien is doomed in the long run to failure, unless by massacre and banishment such aliens are made the bulk of the population". The US refinement was to add large scale immigration to the repertoire, but it still achieved that "bulk of the population" - at least, until now. (Buchan knew whereof he wrote, having been involved with achieving a settlement after the Boer War.)

However, as things now stand, none of these are options for the USA in Iraq.

Anonymous said...

All the gallons of ink spilt in agony over our “involvement” in Vietnam forty years ago has not given us caution and prudence to our foreign adventures. We bounce right back into a gun-ho mode and probably will continue to do so.

I ask myself: is the imperialistic mindset so entrenched in our understanding of other nations, that the imperialistic mindset itself has become the condition by which we understand other nations. Would it be remotely possible for us to conceive of other nations as not somehow subservient to our interests and goals?

At the end you indulge in a bit of name calling, but shooting the finger atthe war swaggering crowd might be just an acknowledgment of your impotence in fighting this imperialistic mindset.

Mr.Fundamental said...

McArdle is seemingly stuck between the nationalistic Republican party that has siphoned off some of the cream from the libertarian movement/theory, and the actual libertarian theory/ideal - or small r republicanism, if you will. these two things should not and do not comport. I think she's a bit muddied and confused in that regard, and her blogging reflects it, painfully so. she's quite tortured herself with these posts!

she's a bit obtuse as well with regards to what is to come. what will we do next time, is what she fails to say, but you can kind of glean from her posts. she is in a position of power, I suppose.

I do not doubt for an instant that our nation will do what it feels or thinks is necessary to protect and defend itself, either pre-emptively or in response to provocation. there is not a damn thing anyone can do or say or think that will change this, especially on the internet. there is not a damn thing voting can do to stem it. it's all gallow's humor at this point.

and hell, a libertarian candidate for President? pass the bong, please, whatever it is you are smoking must be good.

all that I ask is that I am not beholden to agree with or love and appreciate any of it.

I do not.

and perhaps we are lucky to have that. I will now, accordingly, fall on my internet sword.

John B. said...

Consider the bong passed....

Robert K. Blechman said...

An excellent review of a truly sickening period of American history. I would add one point.

As bad as all the repurcussions of the Iraq adventure have proven to be, they detract from the one significant contribution of the Neocon agenda, one that we ignore at our peril. The Neocons have demonstrated the recipe for overthrowing the American Republic. That is the hidden, undiscussed issue of recent history.

We may have destroyed Iraq as a nation, but in the process, the Neocons have undermined the United States Constitution, rendered human rights moot, introduced toture as a debatable assertion, silenced the media, stacked the courts, gelded the Congress and crippled the military. The only flaw in their plan was their own sheer incompetance. They were too greedy and too ignorant to succeed in the long run.

Imagine next time, after a brief Democratic resurgence, they come back, and having learned from their mistakes, succeed in establishing their 1000 year reign?

Arne Langsetmo said...

The second paragraph then proposes a vast swath of straw men whose argument against butchering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, destroying their physical nation, sending millions into internal and external exile, and embarking upon the long-term occupation of a nation a half a world away was, in McArdle's goofy estimation, really just a variation on Murphy's Law. That is probably a pleasant fantasy for someone who ...

... was horribly wrong, and deep in their heart should know it.

The whole post is well said, sir!

Cheers,

Ash said...

In my many arguments against the invasion of Iraq the historical precedent of Germany and Japan after WWII were often held up as examples of success. I think, obviously, that those examples would not serve as a guide toward predicting outcomes in Iraq, but, they insisted that they did.

Ash said...

There is also the British Empire to reach to for examples of invasion and occupation 'working' without supplanting the indigenous populations with the invader. My history isn't really that good and I wouldn't try to argue that the Brits went in and fixed a failed State but their presence certainly influenced the culture and subsequent development of the client states. I in no way wish to argue that it is moral to do so, only that it has occurred in history.

Arun said...

Ash,


http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2004/12/pre-british-india.html


-Arun

Erin said...

On the other hand, McArdle makes a good point that perhaps those who opposed the war in Iraq early on could have based their opposition on more than just their knee-jerk reaction based on disdain for war generally. War is sometimes necessary (e.g., the old saws of defeating Hitler, ending slavery). And this war initially succeeded in accomplishing its goal of deposing Saddam Hussein fairly quickly. Many Iraqis clearly were very happy about that. But did anyone opposed to the war intelligently warn what would happen if the US went in without a governance plan? I don't recall that being their message.

C. Fountain said...

"All the gallons of ink spilt in agony over our “involvement” in Vietnam forty years ago has not given us caution and prudence to our foreign adventures. We bounce right back into a gun-ho mode and probably will continue to do so."

The problem is that the wrong lessons were learned from Vietnam. Ask anyone who belives it was a justified intervention why we lost, and they will tell you things like:
"We lost because we didn't have enough troops." or "We went too easy on Charlie." or "Because of those stupid hippies." or some other excuse...
There is never a moment's thought given that maybe it was just a bad idea to begin with. The current incarnation of this, of course, would be McCain who continues to toot his horn that he was 'right' that we needed more troops in Iraq. Of course, again, he never contemplates the thought that we should have had fewer (i.e. 0) troops there to begin with.
Peace be with you.

Anonymous said...

The war is Iraq was a brilliant idea and has been a great success. Many of us have grown rich supplying the military and for those of us who hate liberty, the Patriot Act alone has made it all worth while.

I really fail to see what inspires the nay-sayers. Government grows because nearly all Americans vote for Republicans and Democrats, proof that nearly all Americans despise liberty, property, and peace.

War creates jobs, destroys people who talk funny and wear funny cloths, and gives us all something to entertain us on the TV.

John McCain says we can keep this fun going for maybe 100 years. Obomba says we can maybe do Seria. It's a win win world, no matter who you vote for as long as we ignore the wacky nutcases like Ron Paul.

Go Troops!

Anonymous said...

Looks like erin picked the dumbest strawman Meagan mustered. Jesus Christ.
Okay, first of all there was plenty of information about the recent history of Iraq available in 2002, but the most important things to be gleaned from it were
1.) Saddam had managed to kill off or imprison anyone who could remotely threaten his power, religious leaders making up an important sub-set of this group.
1a.) The one uprising that had any chance of success was squashed because the U.S. allowed Saddam's helicopter gunships access to the skies with the ostensible no-fly zone in place after the Gulf War, which cleared the decks of anyone capable of leadership.
2.) Iraq had been created by the British in order to take advantage of ethnic animosity between the Shia, Sunni and Kurds with the Sunnis on top making the national government weak so it could be subjugated to the requirements of empire more easily.
2a.) The Shia bristled under the Sunni minority and very rarely were given positions of power at the national level.
3.) The Kurds had existed fairly autonomously since '91 since the no fly zone in the north kept Saddam's forces from having any meaningful in the Kurdish area.
What happens when you introduce a power vacuum to this situation? The calculus isn't that hard, but if you're having trouble, scroll down for the answer:














Civil War. I was saying this in 2002 to anyone who would listen. Jesus Christ, it wasn't very difficult to figure this out.




As for the goal of the war, I thought it was dealing with WMD or establishing democracy or making things right with the people who were gassed or as a test of preemptive war or whatever. I don't rightly recall since the raison d'etre was changing on a weekly basis. It's not the anti-war side's fault that you missed the obvious.

Arun said...

But did anyone opposed to the war intelligently warn what would happen if the US went in without a governance plan? I don't recall that being their message.


"I think that the proposition of going to Baghdad is also fallacious. I think if we were going to remove Saddam Hussein we would have had to go all the way to Baghdad, we would have to commit a lot of force because I do not believe he would wait in the Presidential Palace for us to arrive. I think we'd have had to hunt him down. And once we'd done that and we'd gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and his government, then we'd have had to put another government in its place.

What kind of government? Should it be a Sunni government or Shi'i government or a Kurdish government or Ba'athist regime? Or maybe we want to bring in some of the Islamic fundamentalists? How long would we have had to stay in Baghdad to keep that government in place? What would happen to the government once U.S. forces withdrew? How many casualties should the United States accept in that effort to try to create clarity and stability in a situation that is inherently unstable?"

That was a younger and much much wiser Dick Cheney in April 1991.

Arun said...

Bush the Father in 1998:

""Had we gone into Baghdad -- we could have done it, you guys could have done it, you could have been there in 48 hours -- and then what? Which sergeant, which private, whose life would be at stake in perhaps a fruitless hunt in an urban guerilla war to find the most-secure dictator in the world? Whose life would be on my hands as the commander-in-chief because I, unilaterally, went beyond the international law, went beyond the stated mission, and said we're going to show our macho? We're going into Baghdad. We're going to be an occupying power -- America in an Arab land -- with no allies at our side. It would have been disastrous."

P.M.Lawrence said...

Ash, the British method, as first developed in India, then applied elsewhere, e.g. in Northern Nigeria, was not occupation but indirect rule through local rulers advised by British residents in support of targeted occupation of key areas. Eventually Sir Reginald Coupland refined it into the "dyarchy" system with a British-style civil service under the local rulers, staffed and run by locals with British advisors alongside them at each level until they learned the job. This was implemented in Iraq in the late '20s/early '30s, where a tribal ruler with his own tribe's support was brought in and set up as a constitutional monarch. In particular, local customs and agendas were respected wherever that was consistent with overall control; there was no "nation building" effort at making the country over. (The civil service idea isn't a contradiction of this; it was originally developed in response to local conditions too, then transferred back to Britain, not imported from Britain.)

That approach tapped into an existing support base and drew on it, which is very different from what the USA is doing, which is setting up a puppet government according to its own agenda for which the USA has to provide nearly all the support. It isn't tapping into more local support than it gets that way. It also helped that Britain generally only went in in response to power vacuums or to stop yet other outsiders moving in; it was often clear to locals that the alternative to British rule wasn't independence but some other even worse overlord, out of the frying pan into the fire. For instance, people in northern Burma could compare their lot with that of their counterparts over the border in China - and China had been Burma's overlord before. But a self-described superpower prevents such alternatives being realistic.

The Promiscuous Reader said...

erin: "But did anyone opposed to the war intelligently warn what would happen if the US went in without a governance plan? I don't recall that being their message."

Is this the sort of thing you mean?

http://chomsky.info/articles/20030313.htm

I can probably find more if you like. Evidently you, like most supporters of Bush's aggression, weren't paying attention at the time. For what it's worth, though, knee-jerk opposition to war is not a bad thing. Even granting that slavery could only have been ended by war (in the US, that is -- it was stopped in England without it), or Hitler and Tojo (another messy question), the burden of proof lies on the advocate of violence, not on those who oppose it.

SpaceGhoti said...

Why did we go to war? Our primary justification was WMDs, those pesky Weapons of Mass Destruction (almost typed Distraction) that annoyingly failed to ever turn up. So they neocons claimed they got shipped to Syria before we got there. I think if Syria had access to WMDs, they would have used them by now. Lots of grudges in that region, and far too many short tempers.

Since the WMD argument failed, the neocons switched to "bringing democracy to the Iraqis." Democracy was an afterthought. Remember this. Also remember: the first thing our forces secured were the oil fields. That's right, those beautiful fields of black gold that were supposed to pay for the war within a few years. The ones that aren't producing anything five years later.

There were so many reasons not to go to war, the primary reason being this: you never, ever resort to violence until you have exhausted all other options. We not only failed to exhaust all other options, for the most part we failed to even try them. The people who tried to point all this out to the American people got shouted down and ridiculed within the media.

Do not tell me there were no good reasons not to go to war. There were a lot of good reasons not to go. Just ask Hans Blix, if you can find him. But everyone was so focused on 9/11 and the continued assertion that Hussein was somehow behind it that too many people in important places wanted to back the Bush/Cheney plan for occupation.

Do you know why Rupert Murdoch is buying out so many high-powered media outlets? Because in the end, control of information is how you win any war, foreign or domestic. Murdoch has supported the neocon movement for over a decade, and is my choice for the person most single-handedly responsible for the triumph of conservatism, and the descent into its inevitable stupidity that we currently enjoy.

wmr said...

Actually, they did have a plan for governance after the war, but it was so lame that it never got off the ground and has now disappeared down the memory hole.

In a word, Chalabi.

Archaeopteryx said...

What an excellent post. Thanks.

Erin said...

I assumed when I posted my prior comment that it would elicit examples of pre-war warnings about the eventualities of invading Iraq - so thanks. But still, my point remains that those who oppose war should learn something from McArdle's post - If you want to persuade an opponent, try facts, logic and reasoning, not ad hominem attacks.

The Promiscuous Reader said...

So, let's see, erin: McArdle wrote that "Other peoples’ opposition was animated by principles that may be right, but aren’t really very helpful: the pacifists, the isolationists, the reflexive opponents of Republicans or the US military." Those who oppose war, in other words. She considers them (us) not "particularly useful", and brushes them aside like a dead fly. She has no interest in trying "persuade an opponent" of the war, even those who do "try facts, logic and reasoning". The people she seeks to engage are those who support war, and she wants to help them how to figure out how to make it work. The "ad hominem attacks" were directed, in those glorious days of 2002/2003, by the supporters of the war at the opponents of the war, because they (the supporters) had no facts, logic and reasoning on their side. Capisce?

Erin said...

Capisce. But I recall quite a few ad hominem attacks flying from the left as well. The result has been that the common narrative about how we got into this war is that (generally) those opposed to it opposed it on the basis that war is never a good idea - period. Those who supported it believed the facts were that Iraq had WMD's and that Saddam was certainly not someone to trust with such toys. (And I assume you'd agree that if that had been true, the world would certainly have been justified in taking them away.) If the anti-war activists had tried reasoning with proponents about the risks involved in invading the country and toppling Saddam, the narrative might be different. So rather than dismissing McArdle's point, I think we could all learn something from it - that is, that the wisest decisions tend to be based on a full understanding of one another's position, not by painting the other side with a broad brush. Verstehen Sie?

Mikee said...

"If the anti-war activists had tried reasoning with proponents"

There were a lot of good (and by good I mean ridiculous)comments in the above, but this is my favorite.

You can start with Seymore Hersh, and Bill Moyers, then find back issues of Foreign Affairs magazine, then throw in the arguments of every non-coalition ally (e.g. the French) and I'm sure you can find some on Slate. There were reasoned arguments everywhere, but they were being made to the un-reasonable. And weren't given the light of day on any major network or newspaper. And go way beyond the peace-nik I'm against all war broad brush you want to use.

America was/is not up for "reasoned arguments" especially when someone is banging the war drums. If you didn't hear them, it's because you were letting the media dictate your arguments for you and not finding out on your own if anything they were telling you was true - because it wasn't.

Erin said...

OK - maybe I wasn't paying attention then as well as I should have been. But I am now. And so are many like me. So again, if those opposed to the war would stop nursing their anger about Iraq, they would find they have a teachable moment with their opponents. But really, it is so much more fun to use snark.

Anonymous said...

erin, are you fucking with us? Did April Fools come early? Honestly, what country did you live in during the lead-up to this particular war of choice? Because it doesn't sound like America. The America I lived in in 2003 didn't include any pro-war dudes being like "hey, if you'd just TRY and convince us we might could listen". And even if it had, do you really think Bush would have suddenly said "Whoa, maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves here..."?

I can't figure out if you're trying to retcon the actual political atmosphere/dialogue (not that there was one, mind you) of that time period to fit your fantasy that there was a debate to be had, or if you're just a loon with a bad memory.

Erin said...

Or are you guys fucking with me? Obviously, neither side had their active listening ears on in 2003. While I "get" why you are angered with McArdle's dismissive attitude toward those opposed to the war at that time, I think you should take encouragement to see that people who unreservedly supported the invasion of Iraq are now rethinking the process by which they arrived at that position. It just might mean that next time - they ask more questions and listen to the answers. So get down off your high horse and talk with them. Or don't you believe in attempting to peacefully resolve conflicts?

And by the way, you'll notice that not once have resorted to name calling in my posts. As they say, the stronger the words, the weaker the argument...

The Promiscuous Reader said...

erin: "But I recall quite a few ad hominem attacks flying from the left as well." You'll note that those of us who disagreed supplied, like, evidence, in the form of links and quotations that answered your questions. So, why not follow our example and show us some lefty ad hominems?

"The result has been that the common narrative about how we got into this war is that (generally) those opposed to it opposed it on the basis that war is never a good idea - period." Right, and that is a lie, since as we've shown, the opposition to the war took various positions, ranging from strict pacifism to condemnation of aggressive war (which is what this one was) to criticisms of the war plan, and many points along the way.

"(And I assume you'd agree that if that had been true, the world would certainly have been justified in taking them away.)" You know what happens when you assume? Of course, one could also suggest that there are other ways to 'take them away' than aggressive war with its disastrous consequences. But then, I don't think that the US, or anyone else, should have WMDs either. Do you agree that the world would be justified in taking them away from us, say by a multilateral invasion under UN auspices?

"If the anti-war activists had tried reasoning with proponents about the risks involved in invading the country and toppling Saddam, the narrative might be different." In fact, those who opposed the war DID try reasoning with proponents; they were mostly shut out of media discussions, misrepresented (as McArdle, and it seems, you are doing now) and generally ignored.

Erin said...

I really don't have to go back that far to find this gem: "People who supported the invasion of Iraq were fatuous, bloodthirsty, ahistorical, immoral, politically naive, callous, unthinking, reprehensible morons--to the man."

Mikee said...

I guess we resort to name calling, because it seems reasoned arguments fly over your head like a 747. By McArdle saying our "peace" arguments are the wrong way to be right - for thinking people - that's just another way of saying 'you're a moron.' And by you saying we could learn something from her reasoning, shows us that we cannot reason with you as you haven't learned a g-d thing after five years of this b-s.

Sorry to be so blunt. I hope this doesn't hurt your feelings, so you can blame me for not helping you make a good, moral decision.

Erin said...

OK - last comment - I have learned a g-d thing in 5 years; which is my point. Otherwise I wouldn't be spending my time commenting on this kind of blog. And you think I am dense. Fuck. I give up.