Thursday, March 13, 2008

The World's Oldest Whatever

As usual for public discussions of supposed vice in the United States, the Eliot Spitzer joint has become fodder for mere legalism. Should or should not prostitution be "legalized"? It is a valid question, but a foolishly narrow one. It will briefly incite competing arguments about relative harms, both psychic and physical, and then nothing will happen and everyone will go home. Of course prostitution should be legal. If I may sell the labor of my body, which I'm pretty sure is the basis of a slaveless economy, then I should be able to sell the labor of my body. The objections on the basis of coercion, human trafficking, abuse of women, and the like aren’t objections to prostitution at all, but objections to sometimes-attendant abuses that ought to be addressed on their own, just as violence arising from, say, the drug trade ought to be addressed on its own. We don’t outlaw schools and post offices (but maybe we should!) because they seem to be magnets for a certain kind of violence.

Really, though, all of this is tangential at best to the more interesting questions of our conception of and relationship to human sexuality. The more fruitful question than, “Should prostitution be legal in society?” is: “What is the reason for the persistence of prostitution throughout virtually all societies in all of human history?”

30 comments:

puppylander said...

to wit, "coercion, human trafficking, abuse of women, and the like" are also sometimes an offshoot of other entrepreneurial ventures.

Anonymous said...

Good question, Monsieur, one which I'm sure will elicit several thoughtful replies.

If I may be so bold as to pose a second, tangential query from one of the (now 307) questioners at the NYTimes' Q (the A is still forthcoming):

"Why are our societal priorities such that we can quickly destroy someone whose actions were largely of personal consequence, while giving a 'bye' to someone whose disasterous political decisions affect hundreds of thousands of ives the world over?"
Posted by Pearl

Why, indeed?

TT

SteveB said...

“What is the reason for the persistence of prostitution throughout virtually all societies in all of human history?”

You know, I've noticed the persistence of something called "farming" throughout virtually all societies in all of human history. I can't imagine why, though.

puppylander said...

stevie b,

isn't that a different kind of ho?

Thomas Daulton said...

Perhaps it's worth noting that gun ownership in the United States remains legal, more or less, because its proponents argue that the "sometimes-attendant abuses" (accidental use by children, heat-of-the-moment crimes, etc.) have nothing to do with responsible, properly-trained, licensed use and ownership of guns. Yet everyone makes precisely the opposite argument about prostitution. And drugs. (While of course, virtually everywhere else in the developed world, people apply the "attendant abuses" argument to guns in order to ban them; prostitution and drugs, though illegal, in many places don't have quite the same social stigma they have here in America.)

Naturally gun proponents point to the role of minutemen in our country's Revolution. But above and beyond that, I think it has a lot to do with our country's general prurient Puritan attitude: violence is a perfectly normal and reasonable part of life, but salacious pleasure must be suppressed, sublimated and controlled.

(Who was it who said, "It's perfectly OK to show a naked woman's body on prime-time TV -- just as long as she's been mutilated")

Perhaps the most basic thing all of our American societal elites have in common, is a deadly, jealous, pugnacious hatred of anyone who's having fun in a way that they themselves don't happen to be.

Ash said...

The most common argument I hear of in support of free access to guns (other than the constitution says so) is if guns are banned only the criminals will have them and I won't be able to protect me and my family.

Reason for persistence of prostitution? It feels damn good and I want some. It doesn't seem to occur just because I want it so...

Anonymous said...

You need tools and seeds to farm, you have to wait to get paid, and the price can vary. Prostitution is low overhead, piecework-priced and cash in advance. It is a pretty obvious way to make a living if you have no resources. And its not much different from most of the alternatives.

drip

IOZ said...

Besides which, if the pimp is taking 50% of the revenue in exchange for his "services," then hell, that's more or less the same bargain that we non-black-marketeers strike with our governments.

Anonymous said...

Prostitution is more lucrative if it is illegal. Sure there are various costs of doing business that an illegal business is going to incur that a legal one won't, and that might cut into profits. But by the same token there are various costs of doing business that a legal business would have to deal with (taxes, licensing fees, government inspections, worker safety mandates, etc.) that an illegal business does not. So those costs are probably a wash in the big picture.

Meanwhile, the illegality of it drops the supply and, to some degree, probably raises the demand (people do love the "forbidden", after all), making it more lucrative.

The same analysis holds true for drugs. And for gambling. Unless you're the one who holds a monopoly on the vice in question, it's in the supplier's best interest for vice laws to exist because it increases the money they can make on the enterprise. The sad thing is that we had a case study in this country in the 1920s that pretty much showed exactly how the economics of blanket prohibitions on vice work, yet we consistently ignore those lessons.

paolaccio said...

This is too much of an echo chamber. There was more blood in the water over at Greenwald's place.

Also, "Eliot Spitzer joint has become fodder?" Ah, the felicity!

Anonymous said...

As a possible answer to IOZ's question: "Prostitution has persisted throughout virtually all societies because there is a universal human desire to feel better at someone else's expense."

Amanda over at Pandagon has the compelling thesis that prostitution is really serving the john's sexual desire to treat a person like shit. (http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/13/ask-for-facts-get-the-facts/) She points to the relative success of Sweden (compared to, say, Amsterdam) in reducing the attendant abuses like human trafficking by decriminalizing the sale of sex, but criminalizing its purchase.

In other words, in Amsterdam where prostitution is legal, a lot of johns don't get off on the legal stuff, where prostitutes have to be treated nicely. So they go to places that are black market even in Amsterdam, and the unsurpervised, unsafe black market which legalization was meant to destroy, instead flourishes.

Anonymous said...

No one who writes for Pandagon should be taken seriously.

Evil Government Employee said...

IOZ said...
Besides which, if the pimp is taking 50% of the revenue in exchange for his "services," then hell, that's more or less the same bargain that we non-black-marketeers strike with our governments.


Hey....I resemble that remark.

Leonard said...

What is the reason for the persistence of prostitution throughout virtually all societies in all of human history?

Surely you are not so naive. But perhaps some reader is, so: evolution.

The Promiscuous Reader said...

"But perhaps some reader is, so: evolution."

Lenny Dahling, that's no answer at all, because it's the answer to everything, and therefore to nothing. It's like saying that Jesus is the answer. And given J-Boy's reputed fondness for hanging around with women of ill-repute, he might just be.

Jolly said...

Well, a few people made good points about the prostitution system here in Amsterdam being imperfect.

Fortunately, the prostitutes in Amsterdam are nevertheless far safer and better off than their illegal counterparts.

stephanie g said...

What is the reason for the persistence of prostitution throughout virtually all societies in all of human history?

Because the average man is far hornier than the average woman and is willing to pay resources in search of sexual satisfaction. Women who are in search of sex have no problem satisfying their desires. This is why the few male prostitutes get paid to mostly service other guys.

Now, the reason for this is indeed evolution, an important result of which is the fact that a woman's egg is large, alone, and motionless while a man's sperm are many, small, and highly mobile, and that the price of pregnancy for a male is low yet very high for a woman. Further elucidation can be found in many books on this topic, my favorite (so far anyway) being Matt Ridley's The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature.

Anonymous said...

stephanie g writes:
"Women who are in search of sex have no problem satisfying their desires."

Could you elaborate for us (this one anyhow) unsatisfied males?

Thanke yee

Anonymous said...

I actually followed that Pandagon link above, and poked around the site for the first time in years. My only reaction is, What the fuck was Edwards thinking when he hired that nincompoop?!?! Maybe we ought to give the Rube Goldberg primary system more credit. Sure, we're left with dross, but at least Benito, narcoleptic Fred, Edwards, and Church of the SubGenius Romney are gone.

"Women who are in search of sex have no problem satisfying their desires."

Could you elaborate for us (this one anyhow) unsatisfied males?

You need to listen to more country music. Nobody looks bad at last call....
-- sglover

Baka Gaijin said...

I'm the "anonymous" who posted the Pandagon link above. I was getting sick of being mistaken for other people (it's not the first time I've posted here).

Jolly, the fact that legal prostitutes are treated well in Amsterdam is irrelevant-- the point I was making is that, perversely, the existence of safe, legitimized prostitution in Amsterdam has not reduced the numbers of unsafe, abusive prostitution-- and, somewhat counterintuitively, it looks like legalization may have even increased these numbers.

As for the others who dismiss anything from Pandagon out of hand: I didn't put the link in order to solicit judgment about the Pandagon's overall worthines; I did it to back up my argument. I haven't seen anybody actually address the argument, only its source (and then, not in any meaningful way).

Amanda's contention-- which I find compelling based on the facts she presents-- is that prostitution exists mainly for the gratification of men who want to abuse women (or gay men). She allows that there may be rare cases of men who really just can't get laid another way; and Happy Hookers who are satisfied with their part in the transaction and aren't being exploited. But the numbers show-- even in places where prostitution is legal, like Amsterdam and Nevada-- that in the vast majority of cases, prostitution mainly serves as an outlet where they can feel superior to another person by humiliating her/him. And I believe that's why it keeps on showing up in human societies-- because it's part of humanity's colorful, often contradictory nature to enjoy feeling dominant over another human being.

I posted the link because I didn't want to just list somebody else's argument. Please engage me on the merits of the argument, not of the merits of a particular website.

IOZ said...

Hooked one!

la Rana said...

HAHAHA

cb said...

Baka -- more support for your argument here: http://tinyurl.com/qb4u

But your arguments have been engaged, such as it were.
Of course prostitution should be legal. If I may sell the labor of my body, which I'm pretty sure is the basis of a slaveless economy, then I should be able to sell the labor of my body.
See? You should be able to sell your body, b/c that's the basis of a slaveless economy! It's so simple! So all this talk about "sexual slavery" is really completely wrongheaded, because what's really slavery isn't being smuggled to another country on false pretenses and being forced into involuntary sex to earn money for your kidnappers -- no, what's REALLY slavery is NOT being allowed to do that!

(From the link above: 80% of women in the brothels in the Netherlands are trafficked from other countries; 75 per cent of the women in Germany's prostitution industry were foreigners from Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay and other countries in South America; "The sheer volume of foreign women who are in the prostitution industry in Germany casts further doubt on the fact that these numbers of women could have entered Germany without facilitation. As in the Netherlands, NGOs report that most of the foreign women have been trafficked into the country since it is almost impossible for poor women to facilitate their own migration, underwrite the costs of travel and travel documents, and set themselves up in "business" without outside help.")

cb said...

Of course, I am somewhat unfair to our host in the quote I pulled, as he goes on to add: The objections on the basis of coercion, human trafficking, abuse of women, and the like aren’t objections to prostitution at all, but objections to sometimes-attendant abuses that ought to be addressed on their own.
But since baka's contention was that prostitution entails the abuse of women (which the evidence cited supports), and legalization increases trafficking (again, also indicated by the evidence), one might point out that calling these abuses "sometimes-attendant" is similar to saying that US intervention "sometimes" results in needless civilian casualties.

IOZ said...

The confusion between state and individual actors seems to be proliferating on my website. I'm going to have to try harder. Which sucks, because I just got some really good bud.

By the feminist critique of prostitution, like the feminist critique of pornography, has always interested me in its exclusion of the largest per capita consumers of both, a demographic to which your host most jazz-fingeringly belongs.

Aaron said...

“What is the reason for the persistence of prostitution throughout virtually all societies in all of human history?”

Um, the continuing reality of sexual reproduction? If we reproduced meiotically, we'd be paying someone to cut us in half.

Aaron said...

Well, 'mitotically.'

Keifus said...

Besides which, if the pimp is taking 50% of the revenue in exchange for his "services," then hell, that's more or less the same bargain that we non-black-marketeers strike with our governments.

Hmm, I wonder how the ratio is working out with the ole employers...

Risotto looks great, by the way.

Baka Gaijin said...

I don't quite understand. Where is the confusion between state and individual actors here?

As for feminist critiques of porn/prostitution, I don't think there's just one. There seems to be a bit of disagreement there. They do tend to judge things from the perspective of what would be good for women though-- feminists are funny that way. Sorry, is it true that jazz-handed men are the biggest market for sex for sale? I didn't know. Still, I don't get how that really effects anything we've been talking about.

But, I really am a bit thick sometimes. I feel like I'm just missing your point... Please speak slowly with monosyllabic words, and I'll do my best to follow!

JSN said...

I think the main thing is that we need to expand the list of labels for "wrong."

Currently we have civil and criminal.

I think the victimless crime set should get its own label, social.

I'm not sure how it would all pan out, whether or not we'd need a separate cop force (probably not) but I do think the penalties for social crimes like drugs, gambling, prostitution and pornography, is properly "shame," rather than fine or jailtime.

Spitzer was so shamed he quit his job. There's nothing in the New York State Constitution or law that prevents a criminal from being Governor, except maybe you can't do it from jail, and I'm not even 100% sure of that.

Social crimes are the list of things that a majority of our representatives (assuming american form of gov't) judge we shouldn't be doing, but don't hurt anyone.

Somehow I got the idea from Montesquieu, generally, at least he discusses shame that way.