SOBCHACK: You know, pacifism is nothing to hide behind dude. Take our situation with that camel fucker in Iraq.
THE DUDE: I'm just saying he's got emotional problems, man.
SOBCHAK: You mean . . . other than pacifism?
Needless to say, I look down my long, Mediterranean nose at religions of all sorts, and in particular the Western monotheisms (if you can really call Christianity monotheism, which I rather doubt) that have for so many centuries bathed so much of the world, literally and figuratively, in blood. And yet when I read these sorts of bland ecumenical encomiums, chastizing believers for actually believing, I find myself on the side of the dogmatists. Liberal religion, as it's now known, has at its gaping, vacuous heart a black hole of infinite incoherency, for it posits that "belief" as an abstraction, that the capacity "to believe," supercedes all content of belief. Thus do I choke on my yogurt when nice ladies like Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite avers:
The Pope seems to think that he and Mr. Allam had previously been “in opposition to one another,” merely because they were not of the same faith. That “opposition” has disappeared, apparently, simply through the sacrament of baptism into the Catholic faith.One can imagine the hours Thistlethwaite spent chewing on that pig-ear, but I will tell you, faggots and faggettes, that Uncle Ratzinger does happen to be the supreme pontiff of a church whose motto is "the one true faith." Nearly every Christian sect posits itself as the real source of human salvation, and although neither Islam nor Judaism is quite so big on salvation, they both take their respective "no other gods beside me" pretty damned seriously.
This is unexpectedly revealing. At a deep level, the Pope is saying that it is the faiths themselves that are in opposition, not individuals who may be of different faiths.
And shouldn't they? After all, the religions of the book propose themselves as singularly revelatory, and the idea that two distinct divine revelations are not "in opposition is batty. The Pope believes that he is the representative of the true god on Earth. So while on the one hand we may expect him to speak politely of Islam, how do we expect that he would also consider the content of the Muslim faith to be anything other than heresy and heathenism? And vice versa.
25 comments:
Amen, Brother Ioz.
This kind of "religion" is promulgated by comfortable, middle aged, Volvo driving residents of places like Bethesda and Sewickley. It is vapid. They pick and choose and selectively read the Bible as much as Fred Phelps. I PREFER their reading, of course, but that does not make it any truer.
So what? So they prefer their religious beliefs to be squishy and tolerant rather than fire-breathing and venomous. More power to 'em, I say.
IOZ makes a mistake common to a lot of atheists: he assumes that the fundamentalists are the sole authentic form of their religion because they're the ones who keep asserting that they're the sole authentic form of their religion. Well, bullshit. I'm no Christian, but I know full well that theism isn't going away any time soon, and as long as it's going to be around I'd rather promote the squishy feel-good types, who're less likely to try to harass me and mine (and are less likely, for that matter, to get into bloody scrapes with other theists). You can call it vapid as much as you want, I'll call it "less likely to produce dead people."
Chrissy M:
I think you've mistaken your own palpable confusion for IOZ's post. For instance, nothing you wrote directly relates to what he wrote. Hot tip.
What is interesting about Christianity is that its history is so bloody. Theologically speaking, it should all be virtual warfare.
I believe the only correct response is:
what the fuck does this have to do with Vietnam, Walter?
well, there's no literal connection, but...
what the fuck does anything have to do with Vietnam!
I want to hear the Pope recite this.
The christians almost exterminated the jews in Europe, the Jews and the jews and Arabs in the middle east are at a stand still but the god of the jews has a slight edge. The christians and the moslems in the M/E and south asia are at a stasis (if you include the christian occupying armies). The hindus and moslems are at a draw in south asia. If this is one god, he has some issues. If its more than one, it's too soon to call a winner.
drip
he assumes that the fundamentalists are the sole authentic form of their religion because they're the ones who keep asserting that they're the sole authentic form of their religion.
I believe he's actually saying that they're the ones who take it seriously enough to engage with what it actually tells them, not with what they would like it to be.
The thing is, Christopher, perhaps all the people who drive around with "Coexist" stickers on their cars, where the letters take the form of various holy symbols (yin-yang for the O, cross for the T, crescent moon for the C, etc.), should recognize that this itself is a thoroughgoing secular ideal, and if that's what they want to be the supreme law of the land, good on 'em - just fucking say so, and stop trying to pretend that Jesus didn't really mean it when he said "Believe or burn!" in one instance after another, and so on.
But being a nation of morons who have internalized the idea that it's a terrible thing to be openly godless, we have this amusing spectacle of people trying to pretend that holy words mean whatever they want them to mean, and they can just sweep any contradictions under the rug. And yet we're the nihilistic narcissists for refusing to entertain the notion of an invisible man in the clouds.
I'm as atheist as you get, and I still think monotheism deserves the respect of being openly called an opponent, without being patronized as an ally who just doesn't know it yet (and thus needs you to read their mind for them, the poor dears).
While I agree with the general sentiment expressed in this post (remember that commandment 1 is no gods before me, murder clocks in at 6). Wasn't it only a week or so ago you were shocked that the Harvard virgin didn't know the definition of "literally"? I mean even if "much of the world" only refers to 1% of the land mass, you'd still need more than just a hecatomb or two. Maybe a Gigatomb.
Figuration not your strong point, eh dearie?
Scriptures
n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.
I'm back, having forgotten in my haste to mention the most important thing: without its exclusive claim to being the way, truth and life, there really isn't a damn thing to recommend Christianity to anyone.
Strip away the supernaturalism and the embarrassing verses like Luke 14:26, Matthew 12:30 & 10:34, 2 Corinthians 6:14, etc., and all you have is a collection of platitudes and vague banalities that amount to saying "Nice things are really nice." The supposed ethical teachings are present in any belief system, often times in more detail and without being backed up by the threat of force from an angry sky-god. The Beatitudes? They fail as prophecy and inspiration (ask the meek and peacemakers how things are for them). I've seen fortune cookies, horoscopes and motivational office posters that had more punch to them.
So I'm forced to agree with some great man who said once that liberal Christianity had "...at its gaping, vacuous heart a black hole of infinite incoherency." How is it that Jim Wallis and Amy Sullivan haven't found the two or three seconds of reflection necessary to realize that?
I've seen fortune cookies, horoscopes and motivational office posters that had more punch to them.
But how many fortune cookies from 33 AD have you eaten with a better fortune than the beatitudes?
In any case, liberal Christianity is not dead, it's stronger than ever. It's just completely jettisoned the Bible and God. But the Calvinist righteousness, the focus on building the Kingdom on Earth, on saving others and being saved via good works, of the virtue of the poor and perfidy of the rich... it's all still around. Whosoever believeth in Global Warming, he shall be saved.
@ Christopher m:
When decent people associate themselves with a monstrosity like Christianity, they help it retain a legitimacy it doesn't deserve, and allow it to continue to flourish when it should be dying a quick and long overdue death. Christianity doesn't need to be reworked into a kinder, gentler compendium of lies and platitudes - it needs to disappear entirely.
But how many fortune cookies from 33 AD have you eaten with a better fortune than the beatitudes?
Buddhism is five or six hundred years older, and makes a much more impressive attempt to deal with the whole "life is suffering" thing without condescending to people by telling them abusrd fairly tales. Hell, even a busybody like Confucius would be preferable, as he was at least this-wordly and pragmatic.
So what do you think about the Quakers, who historically have rejected creedal formulations of their beliefs and yet taken their experiential "faith" very seriously, leading them to refuse to take their hats off to their social "betters," to standing up against war and slavery when virtually no one else was, and to frequently getting beaten up or worse?
"without its exclusive claim to being the way, truth and life, there really isn't a damn thing to recommend Christianity to anyone"
You are exactly right and Paul would agree: "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." I Cor. 15:19. Christianity has no value without the resurrection.
"Christianity has no value without the resurrection."
Well, Tolstoy is today considered a "Christian anarchist," and yet his Christianity (reflected in "The Kingdom of God is Within You"), while mystical, viewed the desire for signs and reliance on an otherworldly reward to be a defection from the true Way, as did arguably Jesus himself.
The bible is, of course, a big pile of contradictory words that can be made to say any number of things.
Personally, given that Muslims worship the same guy as Christians, I think you could craft a semi-plausible argument for mutual toleration that was grounded in scripture.
Please don't ask me to, though.
In any case, I agree with Brian; I'm not convinced that the angry jackasses have any clearer of an understanding of the bible than the hippies, because I'm not convinced it's possible to synthesise the thing into a coherent world view without just flat-out ignoring some things.
That said, how exactly is it interesting that the Pope would consider Catholicism and Islam to be in opposition?
This is unexpectedly revealing. At a deep level, the Pope is saying that it is the faiths themselves that are in opposition, not individuals who may be of different faiths.
What, really? You think it could be because the Catholic church's position has always been that they're in opposition with Islam?
I mean, a Catholic, using history as precedent? WHO HAS EVER HEARD OF SUCH A THING?!
John K. -
Being only a few generations removed from the Old Order Amish in Lancaster County, I do have a soft spot for them and the Quakers. Mainly, I don't have a quarrel with them because they tend to mind their own business and walk the talk.
...as did arguably Jesus himself
"Arguably" being the key word there. Personally, I'm with Earl Doherty in thinking that it's likely there never was an individual that all this is based on; rather a composite of various savior-gods. People can do their utmost to turn this story into an epic poem symbolic of all the great themes of human existence; I don't care to stop them. I just hope they don't mind being mocked occasionally, and I hope they aren't discouraged by the knowledge that the vast majority of believers don't want to hear that shit; they just want to see their family and friends again and not have to be afraid of death in the meantime.
Refiguration
Perhaps I just wanted to use the word Gigatomb.
Although I love the irony in defending incorrect usage of the word "literally" with the excuse that it was meant figuratively.
Apologies for the picking of nits, I actually do enjoy most of what I read here, it's just that the snark is a bit contagious.
Arguing about Religion - Western or Eastern, Northern or Southern - is a lot like arguing about...Vietnam.
"Ve vant da mooney Lebowski, or, ve fock yoo ahp".
Amen to that brother.
Mike
The word "literally" wasn't the one used figuratively. Speaking of nits. Cf. Metonymy.
Let's try that again.
The super-reductive liberal coexisters don't bother me all that much--calling it a coverup for secularism sounds right, but I can think of worse ways that spiritual impulses (and pressures) could be dealt with. Traditions can be hard to shake too.
And anyway, saying that all of the divine books are equally valid really isn't much different from saying that they're all equally wrong.
Did you see that the Pope has announced there are more Muslims in the world than Catholics! That's what happens when the Irish, Polish and Brazilians, etal, get a semblance of an economy.
Over here in Old Europe, the Catholicism fruit is definitley withering on the vine. That can be taken quasi-literally if you watch the mass let out in my neighborhood; nothing but gray-heads and walkers. They still hype the First Communion, and we still get Ascension as a public holiday, but there's no fervor behind it.
Most of my friends here in Europe are appalled that the Americans still "believe" that crap about Jesus/Mary/heaven. The ones that still go to church only do it for effect and tradition, not because they believe. But I think that has a lot to do with being so close to the Shoah, and realizing there ain't no one but ourselves looking out for us.
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