Who Is IOZ?: Rien de rien

Wednesday, April 09, 2008

Rien de rien

The progglesphere is totally delighted that Joe Biden, the regnant Aeolus of an already breezy US Senate, half-got Ryan C. "What A" Crocker to admit that Iraq is not the "central front in the war on terror," which of course leads no one to conclude that we ought to cease our imperial meddling around the globe, but rather that it would somehow be a good idea to put an extra hundred thousand boots just across the border from Pakistan. This in turn has caused some considerable hand-wringing, as no one is certain what to "do about Pakistan." Hey, America, how about nothing?

46 comments:

Anonymous said...: them proggles sure do know how to blog themselves into knots. praising joe biden was the first bad omen.; 2:07 PM
The Promiscuous Reader said...: But ... but ... we have to do SOMETHING!!!!; 2:10 PM
Anonymous said...: I agree, something must be done.; 2:55 PM
Montag said...: Because of our Power, our not doing something, actually creates a gap. A gap in which something else will happen. Then we'd be all, "we could have done something, but now EVERYTHING IS FUCKED!"

Could we live with that?; 2:57 PM
chthulu's mom said...: The children! For God's sake, won't somebody think of the children?; 3:07 PM
Anonymous said...: What is to be done, comrades?; 4:04 PM
erin4iraq said...: IOZ,please clarify: Is it your position that it is never appropriate for the US to act? Are there any circumstances that call for military action in another country?; 4:21 PM
IOZ said...: Oh, lordy.; 4:30 PM
Leonard said...: Yeah, IOZ, yeah! I mean, let's say there's a ticking antimatter bomb over there in some wogland, say, Pakistan. OK? And that it's big enough to blow up the world!!! Are you saying it is not appropriate that we intervene to deactivate it? Huh??? You're willing to consign the entire human race -- including the Children! -- to nuclear immolation? Aha!! Gotcha!!; 4:43 PM
Mr.Fundamental said...: I've learned, and am learning and constantly relearning, over the years I have been bike racing, that it is quite a sublime thing to suffer and be strong. it might be simple, to sit there and take it, but it is not easy. of course, dope helps every once in awhile. team green baby, ride on!; 4:56 PM
nicole said...: I conclude ioz's lack of enthusiasm in shooting people proves that he hates humanity.; 5:35 PM
Brian said...: Erin is right. We must always trust our GLORIOUS LEADERS. Who will always define for us when it is truly right and just for us to bomb another, less worthy, people to shreds. I still vote for Iran. Them Persians EMBARRASED us.

Erin: once again, I even volunteer to contribute $10 to your new charity taking care of the future Iranian victims of the policies you still support.; 7:10 PM
erin4iraq said...: It's a simple question, to which, I presume, you have no response other than to act all exasperated like.

(I have to admit that it's fun messing with you guys.); 7:22 PM
erin4iraq said...: ...well maybe not so "simple," but it's a valid question...; 7:28 PM
Leonard said...: Erin, different blogs attract different commenting-crowds, based on the proprietor. In this case, our proprietor is a snarky dude, quicker of wit than most. His comment section reflects this. It's not a place where a lot of serious argumentation goes on. Rather a lot of be-bopping and scatting. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

If you want my serious answers to your questions, look here.
http://unruled.blogspot.com/2003/02/why-peace-i-love-good-argument.html
IOZ's can be found at this site, I think, but you'll have to hunt it up yourself. I suspect he'd mostly agree with me, though. Note that my post there was written before the Iraq war, and mostly addresses it; you can simply substitute "everywhere except USA and its territorial waters" for "Iraq" and my meaning should be clear.; 8:39 PM
Anonymous said...: erin: "Are there any circumstances that call for military action in another country?"

your question really is: "isn't mass-murder OK every now and then?" you said this was a simple question, and you're right. the simple answer is: "no."; 9:02 PM
Anonymous said...: erinwhatever:
most of us come here for the pie.

uncle buck; 9:06 PM
Mr.Fundamental said...: actually I was thinking you could get a tattoo as a show of empathetic solidarity. Iraq, I bleed and ooze plasma for you. let me show you that I will pain myself for you, permanently scarred. or scared?

or we can blog until it hurts, or until peace overwhelms the unviverse and Jesus comes back. he's going to be pissed when he sees us all wearing gold crosses around our necks.; 9:38 PM
Anonymous said...: "What is to be done, comrades?"

Blaze as fuck.; 11:09 PM
erin4iraq said...: Leonard - Thanks for the link and the serious answer. I can dole out snark with the best of them, but I meant that question and I appreciate your input.

After reading your blog, I would only add that, curiously, many Iraqis I have gotten to know (and others whose blogs I have also frequented) have expressed gratefulness (still) that we invaded Iraq and deposed Saddam. Whether or not we should have done so is clearly water under the bridge at this point (as infuriating as that may be). What I try to advocate now is that the US do whatever it can to promote some lasting good out of this mess.

Brian, I do not support invading Iran. The book Children of Jihad provided me a much better sense about what is going on politically in that country, and put Ahmadinajad's Anti-american rants in perspective. It also gives a reason to hope that the upcoming generation of Iranians will reject their repressive society and government and find their own way to freedom as they come of age.

I think, to some extent, the same is true of Iraq. Based on communication with people who know a lot more about Iraq than you or me or any American, there are many Iraqis who have a similar hope about the younger generation in their country. And those people do not want the US to end its presence in Iraq before that group has a chance to get a political foothold.

And Mr. Fundamental, if I didn't think tatoos were so tacky, I might take you up on the idea.

I anticipate you all will say that caring about Iraq or trying to do anything to improve life for Iraqis is nothing more than self-important, deluded blather. You may have a point, but I can't imagine doing anything more worthwhile.

So thanks again for the input and abuse. I will be more snarky next time.; 1:31 AM
Anonymous said...: erin,
deposing saddam was good? how about funding the coup that brought him to power? how about selling him chemical weapons to use against his own people? abandoning the shi'ite uprising after the first gulf war and allowing him to stay in power for another decade?

you say you are only "caring about Iraq or trying to do anything to improve life for Iraqis," but even a cursory glance at the history of american (or european) involvment in the middle east inevitably leads to one of two conclusions: 1) we are really really bad at helping people; or 2) helping people isn't now and never has been part of our agenda.

further, you seem to think that the choice facing the people of the middle east is between violent extremism and pro-western moderation. this is a fundamentally imperialist foundation on which to base your analysis. indeed, the only way for the iraqis to "find their own way to freedom" is to LIBERATE THEIR OWN LANDS BY KICKING US THE FUCK OUT.

finally, i do believe that you've conversed -- in one form or another -- with iraqis who "have expressed gratefulness" and who "do not want the US to end its presence in Iraq". you present this, though, as if there are no iraqis who feel otherwise (perhaps they're not on your blogroll). i can't imagine that the families of the MILLIONS of iraqis we've displaced, detained, or killed share their disposition.; 2:01 AM
almostinfamous said...: not to mention, you know, the whole of the iraqi resistance movement...; 2:08 AM
Anonymous said...: oh yeah, them too; 2:13 AM
Christopher said...: It also gives a reason to hope that the upcoming generation of Iranians will reject their repressive society and government and find their own way to freedom as they come of age.

It's always worth remembering that the current repressive government came into power as the result of a popular revolution directed against a repressive government which we installed.

So... really, the Iranians already shook off their oppressive government and found their way to freedom as they came of age. Sort of. Not that it's perfect, but post-revolutionary America wasn't exactly pudding and cream for women or religious or ethnic minorities either.

On a similar subject:

The book Children of Jihad provided me a much better sense about what is going on politically in that country, and put Ahmadinajad's Anti-american rants in perspective.

I'm not sure they need to be put into perspective.

Our President is constantly making raving anti-Iranian speeches. In addition, he is says that they're developing nuclear weapons, and has started to use the exact same rhetoric he used to lay the groundwork for the Iraq invasion.

Given that, would it be ethical for Iran to launch a first strike against us, before we attack them?

If they did, it would be more justified then the Iraq invasion, because the claim that we are able and highly willing to use weapons of mass destruction against them in the immediate future is completely true.

But somehow I don't think that many Americans would see it that way.

I think one of the central points of this website is that we Americans need to stop thinking that our super special awesomeness justifies... well, anything.

We ought to realize that we do not, in fact, have some kind of moral authority that gives us the right (Or even the ability) to act as an international Batman, cruising around and violating the rights of bad guys, but only if they really deserve it.

Maybe we should try fixing some problems that don't require us to murder people. Believe it or not they do exist.

Incidentally, I first discovered this blog because I came to complain about a post that James Wolcott linked to. But then I read the rest of the blog and understood what Mr. Ioz was saying, and realised I didn't disagree with him as much as I thought I did.; 4:13 AM
Mr.Fundamental said...: freedom is just another word.

they want a Republic like ours? for rizzle?

then they're idiots.; 8:18 AM
Anonymous said...: they want a Republic like ours? for rizzle?

then they're idiots.

They may just want to drop some bombs of their own. The West seems to have had a really good time of it. I mean, would you want to be left out?; 8:47 AM
Anonymous said...: sounds like some chick around here really needs to get laid - by either sex.

group sex is also highly recommended for our young miss "erinwhatever", with much passing of the sacred bong.

grumpy gus; 8:57 AM
nicole said...: Generally, the smartest thing to do in any circumstance is "nothing". It's amazing how many of these supposedly Gordian problems just solve themselves given time and patience.

America has a mania for solutions. It comes from our belief that we are the best, most enlightened, blessed by God, most perfect so-and-sos in the world, and the world is just starving for our wisdom. Go to any right wing blog, or even left-wing blog, and you'll get a lecture about the "city on the hill", the "genius of the Constitutional system"...as if we were the only semi-enlightened republic that ever existed in human history.

Combine this solutions mania with two other American traits -- our intolerance of difference and our capacity for violence -- and you have a disaster in the making.

What to do about Pakistan? Iraq? Iran? I'm reminded of Kurt Vonnegut and his Trafalmadorians. The Trafalmadorians were an interstellar race that had space travel, but rarely used it. Part and parcel of Trafalmadorian culture were comedies based on conceited Trafalmadorians traveling to some unwary world and teaching the dumb natives the genius of the Trafalmadorian way of life, only to find out that they weren't as smart as they thought they were. The Trafalmadorians knew that they had certainly not achieved enlightenment, and were quite aware of their own failures and frailties, and were not going to force those frailities upon the unwary.

I'm more Trafalmadorian than American. For you see, it takes great strength to do nothing. When Jesus talked about turning the other cheek, I don't think he was talking about masochism, but about having the inner strength to believe that the first option one thinks of in a crisis -- hitting the guy right back -- is probably not the best one. The Zen koan says that the sharpest sword is the one that is never used. Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread, and the actions of the past five years in Iraq are a testimony to human foolishness writ large.; 10:06 AM
Corner Stone said...: that we invaded Iraq and deposed Saddam. Whether or not we should have done so is clearly water under the bridge at this point (as infuriating as that may be).

To all the Iraqi peoples -
Even though at least one person from every family in Iraq has been killed or murdered in the last five years, I say unto you:
Bygones Bitches!; 3:02 PM
erin4iraq said...: corner stone - no, obviously that's not what i mean. all i am saying is that continually debating whether we should have invaded doesn't do anything to address the situation in iraq today; although, admittedly, understanding where we went wrong should be a helpful deterrent to invading iran; 9:14 PM
puppylander said...: they (in iraq and elsewhere) aren't small children who need you to nanny them. besides, what in the gosh heck tarnation do you know better than they do, you meddlesome kid?; 8:49 AM
erin4iraq said...: What? How is becoming informed about a situation and trying to do something to help nannying or meddling? If they don't want my help, they can certainly tell me. I don't need your permission.; 11:04 AM
puppylander said...: oh for crying out loud, elle wood. parse your language.

"if they don't want my help, they can certainly tell me."

the fact that someone would need to tell you to mind your own business is itself proof of meddling.

res ipsa loquitur.; 12:16 PM
erin4iraq said...: woo. latin. impressive. did you get a black's law dictionary for christmas?

seriously, you make no sense whatsoever. if bloggers minded their own business, blogs would not exist. and by the way, mind your own business when it comes to my life and how i choose to spend it.; 1:18 PM
puppylander said...: more latin, then: non sequitur.; 1:26 PM
IOZ said...: Yeah, nothing says, "Don't go!" like a roadside bomb. If only my ex had left a few laying around, I'd know how much he still really loved me.; 1:58 PM
Anonymous said...: "if bloggers minded their own business, blogs would not exist."

if only, dear; 2:42 AM
jack kevorkian said...: sounds like some chick around here really needs to get laid - by either sex.

People like you are really too stupid to live. Please go suck an exhaust pipe. Hurry.; 8:51 AM
erin4iraq said...: IOZ - It depends on which Iraqis (or non-Iraqi insurgents) you are going to listen to and try to support. Roadside bombers who are motivated by hatred and whose goal is chaos and power based on fear; or educated Iraqis who love Iraq and want to see it as a unified country with a secular democracy. As examples of the latter, take a look at http://twentyfourstepstoliberty.blogspot.com and http://baghdadtreasure.blogspot.com; 11:08 AM
Anonymous said...: erin,
so... mass murder? that's still the solution you're advocating, right? that we should continue killing lots of iraqis on their own soil because, if we stopped, lots of iraqis would die?

i mean, obviously it would have to be GOOD mass murder, targeting only those who really deserve to get killed. it's not like we're the bad guys, after all.; 4:33 PM
erin4iraq said...: We are at an impasse. I understand that sometimes war is a necessary evil; you don't agree (evidently). Of course I am not advocating mass murder, but I am advocating doing what we can to protect and help Iraqis that are seeking to restore order to their lives and to find a way to peacefully coexist with other Iraqis and their neighbors. Whether that requires military action by Iraq or the US entirely depends on those opposing a stable Iraqi society.

And of course you know that pacifism only works when others protect your right to be a pacifist. Unless you don't mind being a dead pacifist.; 9:29 PM
puppylander said...: "military action by Iraq or the US entirely depends on those opposing a stable Iraqi society" ergo "advocating doing what we can".

more latin, still: quod erat demonstrandum.; 10:52 PM
puppylander said...: addendum: gandhi had it coming.; 10:57 PM
erin4iraq said...: touche'; 1:30 AM
Anonymous said...: thank god for wars. otherwise, pacifists wouldn't be have a right to be pacifists.

oh, and the iraq needs our tanks and our bombs, otherwise iraqis wouldn't be able to "peacefully coexist".

but it's definitely not about oil. no sir. that would make people like erin useful idiots. and that cannot be.; 1:36 AM
puppylander said...: the point, of course, is that there's a case to be made (and ioz has been making it for a long while now) that u.s. military (and not least, non-military) action prevents iraqi stability.

moreover, morally, the fact that they have something that we want doesn't justify doing something to get it. (re: what we want... whether something so banal as oil, or something more ethereal, like an assuagement of guilt or the fulfillment of an overweening sense of responsibility.) unilateral action necessarily implies a disregard of the senses and sensibilities of others.

at best, iraq is like a well-intentioned carjacking.; 8:59 AM

Wednesday, April 09, 2008

Rien de rien

46 comments:

Axis Mundi

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