Kevin Drum does me a favor by exposing, if accidentally, the hypocrisy and incoherency of the liberal case for intervention and wholly contingent defense of self-determination.
I supported the independence of Kosovo, for example, and I'd argue that circumstances there fully justified it. No liberation movement is ever pristine, the KLA among them, but Milosevic's treatment of Kosovo's Albanian population was simply bloodcurdling. There's just no comparison with South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which may have chafed under Georgian rule but suffered nothing in the way of Kosovoan levels of violence and ethnic cleansing. Russia's persistent provocations in the Caucasus may have been partly inspired by anger at Western support for Kosovo's independence, but it's implausible to argue that the cases are really parallel.This account of the series of events leading to Russia's invasion of Georgia is argument-serving, but even were that not the case, the ethical rubric laid down here is awfully strange. South Ossetia may have "chafed under Georgian rule," but since there were no concentration camps, grin and bear it. That rule essentially obviates every independence movement of the last three centuries, going right back to our own American Revolution. Well, the counterargument might go, there is also a difference between seeking political self-determination and mere ethnic nationalism, but that, I contend, is a distinction without a difference, a privileging of arbitrary affiliation over cultural inherency, and a self-serving rationalization to justify one's own historic rebellion without committing to any consistent defense of the right of people to decide who will rule them and how.
None of which is to say that Mikheil Saakashvili was smart to let the Russians to goad him into giving them an excuse to invade. He wasn't. But that still doesn't mean that we have to blindly follow identical policies in every region. Maybe independence for Kosovo could have been handled more smoothly, but it was nonetheless pretty strongly justified by events on the ground. Russia's tit-for-tat demands for South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence aren't.
In any case, here the point is moot, because South Ossetia didn't secede; it didn't embark on a war of independence. There may or may not have been some geurilla activity in the region, and it's certainly true that the Russian habit of issuing Russian passports to ethnically Russian Georgians was a calculated provocation, but the precipitating event of the current conflict was the decision by Georgia's foolish and corrupt president to stage an internal invasion of the territory, and that blunder was in turn encouraged by our goofball American policy of pledging to defend free peoples (read "pro-American") here, there, and ev-er-ee-where, although we lack the desire, will, or wherewithal to do so.
As for the idea that we cannot just go around supporting independence movements willy-nilly because that would be "an admission that people of different ethnicities shouldn't really be expected to live together"--isn't it about time to admit that, perhaps, they shouldn't? Why, for instance, is it more morally admirable or politically practical for culturally and linguistically Russian people to live in an enclave within another, culturally distinct nation, rather than exist either independently or within the body of the Russian nation itself. Why is the multi-ethnic nation-state unit more desirable to liberals than the monoethnic, autonomous enclave? What imperative prevents us from allowing that through conquest, cooperation, and migration, the tribes will change, coalesce, break apart, adapt, adopt, etc., as they have for all of human history?
The liberal has no real replies to these questions, except to resort to a bowdlerized Hobbesian argument about perpetual warfare and misery in the absence of centralized authority. That argument is profoundly ahistorical. Warfare surely occured prior to the nation-state, prior to the age of empires, prior to large-scale societies, prior to agriculture. We are a violent species. But it was no more prevalent in any prior epoch, and certainly the more modest resources of smaller social networks made it impossible to wage war on the scale of the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. Likewise, most of the ethnic conflicts of the last several centuries have occured not where autonomous ethnic groups lived in near proximity, but where colonial and imperial meddling had forced them into political power-sharing arrangements within cobbled-together nation-states.
For those who want to write in response that talking about the massive devolution and dissolution of nation-states is preposterous and unrealistic, I reply in advance: yes, that's true. But no more preposterous and ridiculous than "national governments can and should treat ethnic minorities with respect and fair-mindedness." Because from the Cherokee to the Ainu to the ethnic Albanians, we know how well that's been working out.
41 comments:
I haven't seen an example of a monoethnic enclave that looked like a cooler place to live than, say, Hawai'i or Vancouver.
I'm not even going to take a swat at political practicality or moral admirability. Just from an esthetic standpoint alone, though... I'd be much happier not to have to live in the New English Free Province of Italianirishlandia.
Shorter Kevin Drum: "Kosovo's pair of Jacks beats South Ossetia's pair of sixes."
Paul makes a good point. I can't imagine being stuck in a mini-state that is 100% German-English of a particularly dull Midwestern subset. Bleh. I still remember my mother's second husband, from some godforsaken prairie Indiana farmtown, complaining about the ethnic neighborhoods in San Francisco ( I did not drive him through the Castro...the poor old farmer would have keeled over then and there).
Brian-Happy to live in a Squabbling, Perhaps Disfunctional Multiethnic Concoction called "California."
Hyphenated Americans equating their own dessicated cultural identities (thanks, great-grandma) with those under discussion: funny. Dudes, your ethnic identity is "White American," and your desire to buy cheap yummy noodles in a charming Chinatown is charming, but irrelevant.
I'm sorry, I wasn't listening.
he said we're charming.
As a liberal, i have no response to these abstract questions. But I will say this: Ossetians aren't culturally or linguistically Russian, but, if anything, Iranian.
Alright, Ioz....You do have a point.
But...said desire to buy said noodles (and not in no Chinatown) is by no means irrelvant to MY life. Cause "White American" food (e.g., bland food products made from commercial packaged mixes) sucks.
Besides, as a good libertarian, isn't your vision more Neil Stephenson's The Silver Age than dismembered Yugoslavia?
dudeman, I know which neighborhoods here in Philthy not to drive my bike around in . . . and though I got no beef with anyone in those `hoods, the Do Something's! are more than ready, willing and able to intervene with various social programs, education, curfews, police crackdowns, etc. this aggression will not stand, man! fucking Quakers.
it's audacious to weigh and compare various conflicts and then assign value and attempt to marginalize one and promote the other. there is nothing benevolent or good in any of it. quit pretending to know better.
Even Shorter Kevin Drum: *drool*
"We are a violent species. But it was no more prevalent in any prior epoch, and certainly the more modest resources of smaller social networks made it impossible to wage war on the scale of the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries."
Pinker disputes this. Specifically he points to anthropological and historical data says there was more violence (per person) in past epochs... "Life in a state of nature is nasty, brutish, and short, not because of a primal thirst for blood but because of the inescapable logic of anarchy."
Diamond Age, not Silver Age.
Not sure I buy Pinker's arguments. All of the "crimes" he lists are indeed prevalent under the so-civillized rubrics of the Modern State. The State may hide or obfuscate or excuse the crimes, but the elites involved running in the State certainly understand what is going on-same as it ever was.
Torture? Still plenty of bullfighting, catfighting, dogfighting going on. Plus, modernity gives us new mechanisms for exploring our savagery-pay per view Mixed Martial Arts, anyone? So...not sure.
But, maybe I should be more sympathetic to his arguments? As romantic as they are, I'm not sure a mosaic of violently self-defined little ethnic enclaves will be all that peaceful. I would like that to be true, but...is that realistic. The Diamond Age was a fantasy novel, after all. One that assumes violent competition and "successful cultures" stomping out the less "successful."
Oh, If it's Franchise-Organized Quasi-National Entities we're talking about, then I'm all for it. You can always get good noodles at a Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong.
Well, this isn't quite a response to IOZ, but for what it's worth, multiethnic empires are more viable than most little ethnic enclaves. Just ask the ancient Persians or the Ottoman Turks. That's no statement as to the humanity of those powers, but in terms of war machines, the breakaway model doesn't work. Once the Westphalian, UN-type system wears down (which is to say, once the US is no longer able or willing to use its facade to justify its monopoly on reconstructive warfare), you'll see those little powers snatched up by the empires, the way the game was always played.
Now if you manage some Hindu Kush shit up in the mountains or on a desolate island, sure. But otherwise, you're going to be part of the game. Only being uninteresting and not worth the effort will save you.
And IOZ, are you saying that ethnic loyalty isn't arbitrary? Most of it's founded in as much fact as ideology. In a lot of human history, ethnicity was as simple a question as who your father was.
>for what it's worth, multiethnic empires are more viable than most little ethnic enclaves.
i mean, i'm not sure how many of you guys are anarchists -- i've always assumed notre monsieur is -- but shouldn't the goal be something better?
and pinker is right as far as preneolithic tribes being more violent, but what in the fuck does that have to do with anarchism? we're not anarcho-primitivists, and i'm pretty sure even they have a more organized social model than "random tribes that run around and kill each other whenever they encounter one another". meh.
I don't know what I am....I am a wishy washy minor bureuacrat who's perhaps not interested in the "freedom" of the libertarian dream. Ayn Rand's dream is not very appealing to me (not that I'm saying anyone here is a Randian) Still...there is an appeal to the "Against the State" and the "Mutualist" dreams.
I don't read pinker as seeing "random tribes running around and killing each other." I think he would respond that the warfare was in no ways "random" and was done for similar reasons as we do so today.
for what its worth, i suspect pinker's comment about anarchy is uninformed by anarchistic philosophy, and i think he just intends "anarchy" to mean the absence of a state with a monopoly on ("legit") violence.
RE Pinker:
There is no compelling reason whatsoever to think that a proportional analysis is the appropriate approach to the task of comparing historic violence to the modern variety. In fact, I strongly suspect that it is not.
He also commits the obvious fallacy of defining violence almost entirely in terms of killing. Some of us think that a life sentence in a maximum security prison is a thousand times more barbaric than a bullet to the head.
You know, just for the sake of argument...
the_system
So wait, the US is not always consistent when it intrudes in foreign affairs? It is motivated by self interest? Shocking.
the_system - I could give two shits about whatever Pinker was trying to say, but since you were parsing words -- "some of us..." are wrong. Maybe I, like our fearless leader, am just cranky b/c I'm trying to get my Olympics on and Vlad the Impaler is fucking around just. because. he. can.
- COT
What IOZ said!
Also, unsaid:
What Drum tries to put over about Kosovo/KLA/Serbia is is Grade-Z horseshit.
Ayn Rand's dream is not very appealing to me
Dude!
So wait, the US is not always consistent when it intrudes in foreign affairs? It is motivated by self interest? Shocking.
Shocking indeed. And also not so on either count, as explicated in that document.
"More viable" for whom.
for what its worth, i suspect pinker's comment about anarchy is uninformed by anarchistic philosophy, and i think he just intends "anarchy" to mean the absence of a state with a monopoly on ("legit") violence.
Yeah, I recall in The Blank Skate where he talked about an incident from his youth - a general strike, I think, but I'm too lazy to go check on it right now - that turned violent and chaotic, and he made clear that it had a huge effect on him as far as his views of human nature were concerned.
Er, didn't The Diamond Age end with violent competition where a "successful culture" stomped out the less "successful" cosmopolitan one?
(Not that anyone couldn't be forgiven for ignoring one of Stephenson's endings, and possibly I'm remembering badly too.)
More viable for no individual, certainly. I just mean that multiethnic empires, though they tend to be shorter-lived than the local cultural substrates they attempt to negotiate or alter (for it is culture that tends to create and recreate political reality), are incredibly effective at holding power internally and externally, whereas Balkanized microstates (and I do not use either word in a derogatory sense) tend to be gobbled up by those empires. Now I suppose you could make a claim that the yoke is worn by both master and slave or something, but I'm not an adherent to some doctrine of equivalence. In the long term, cultures may win out (but only when those enclaves are part of a wider network) over the state, but in the short term the state wins. And you can point to many multiethnic empires such as the Ottomans and the Russians as evidence of some inherent cruelty, but I'd say the ancient Persians have a lot on the nationstate; home rule was offered for many, but the military expenses benefited from an economy of scale and thus, the over all cost of war, a perpetual burden, was lower on the citizens as a whole.
Oh, and that brings me into the disproportionate military expenditures of smaller nations. I can already hear you laughing, pointing to the United States and its notorious military budget, but I'd say that's a result of culture and political influence rather than necessity. Quite frankly, a large state doesn't need a large military, unless it has purposes other than repelling invaders and maintaining its sovereignty.
If we're doing an ideological A/S/L, I have to say that Rand holds nothing for me. Chambers' demolition of Atlas Shrugged hits the mark, if you ask me. As for what I am... Well, I hesitate to name drop, not wanting to sound like an undergraduate. I've read some shit. I believe that the international sphere is fundamentally without rules or morality and perhaps even causation. I don't take this as reason to love the strong for their strength, however.
I can already hear you laughing, pointing to the United States and its notorious military budget, but I'd say that's a result of culture and political influence rather than necessity.
Building an empire without bombs and guns isn't the easiest thing to do. And that, well, is the point of having those things. Judging by events in this decade (and those prior), they get a lot of use too.
The giveaway in that Pinker quotation is "state of nature." Human beings haven't existed in a state of nature for at least 30,000 years. "Primitive" tribes are still human, still use language and technology and have culture. Hominids were social animals long even before Homo sapiens emerged on the scene, so it's unlikely we've ever really had anarchy in the sense he's applying the word. Wotta maroon.
Oh, certainly, it takes a lot of bombs and guns and yet, all things being equal (though I know they're hardly ever so), a smaller state must devote a greater proportion to bombs and guns than does a larger state. But alas, the United States, most notably but not uniquely, does not have border defense on the mind as it divides the world up into military commands and bristles at the very suggestion that another state would assemble weapons of deterrence.
But for defense, the larger state wins. In fact, it doesn't need to throw its weight around. Its population and abilities are inherently threatening.
Now you might say "But show me a larger state in which conquest and intimidation aren't of interest!" Well that's a human problem, not a problem of scale and I'd say that, large or small, states will hit when they can. Microstates offer no superiority on that point. They're only less violent today because the great powers have insisted on it.
The giveaway in that Pinker quotation is "state of nature." Human beings haven't existed in a state of nature for at least 30,000 years. "Primitive" tribes are still human, still use language and technology and have culture. Hominids were social animals long even before Homo sapiens emerged on the scene, so it's unlikely we've ever really had anarchy in the sense he's applying the word. Wotta maroon.
The human "state of nature" includes language, technology, culture, and more violence per capita than modern state societies, so I'm not sure what your point is. It would be the rise of agriculture and with it state society, about 10,000 years ago not 30,000, that ended the state of nature for many humans, though there are still some hunter-gatherer tribes.
The strike that someone mentioned earlier was a police strike in Montreal that led to a bunch of lootings and riots and chaos. "Anarchy."
"a large state doesn't need a large military, unless it has purposes other than repelling invaders and maintaining its sovereignty" (Cüneyt)
Most of Cüneyt's historical examples are from a pre-modern period, when the majority of the population (peasants, serfs, slaves, women and other two-legged beasts of burden) ruled by any state counted for nothing and did not belong, in any meaningful sense, in any political nation.
For old-time armies, logistics set certain practical limits to size. As late as 1870 a major part of the German troops besieging Paris had to be detached to forage for food, and that was in the railway age. The Persians had to scale their army so that it could live off the land. Modern armies are different.
And in any large state there's always a big constituency that'll benefit from war. In a small state, not necessarily.
"that's a human problem, not a problem of scale and I'd say that, large or small, states will hit when they can" (Cüneyt)
WTF? How the hell is this not a problem of scale? The reason the Swiss are neutral and have a well-regulated militia instead of a standing army and let the cantons take care of all the things that their constitution does not authorize their federal government to do, is that they are small. The reason the US is an empire with an enormous standing army and a runaway federal government is because it is huge. This is pretty basic. It also means that the certain posters who think that you could save the US by sort of rewinding the tape to some point where things went wrong (Civil War, New Deal, whatever) and give the film a different ending, are wrong. Once you are a continent-sized state, you're going to be what you are now.
Uh, I think Swiss neutrality has more to do with their greater ability to defend than offend, actually. But I'm pretty strongly materialistic, so you'll have to forgive my bias on that.
Larger states can hit more. And, when larger states insist on it, smaller states will tend to be more peaceful. But that's not to say anything of essential behavior. In a world of city-states, it'd be two weeks before various cities were annexing their neighbors. What I'm saying is that the pursuit of power is not restricted to large states; small states often find their means restricted, but their opportunism remains the same.
Ooh, constitutionalism. That old saw. Let me tell you; if Switzerland thought it would benefit from annexing territory outside its borders, it would. Maybe not immediately, for there are those who oppose war (I've heard of such people). But sooner or later, if it thought it could get away with it, it would. Don't confuse lack of options for lack of desire. The weaker are not necessarily better than the stronger.
Oh, and in regards to the statement about pre-modern and modern examples, and large state war constituencies:
You're not making an unfair point. Industrialization has changed culture, to some extent. I do believe that. You can't uproot seventy percent of the population from traditional labor and throw them into concentrated regions and not expect a little bit of a shift. So humanity can be said to have changed. We've been made more vicious, perhaps. Seems to be the case with more concentrated populations of most animals. Why not us?
But I will say this--warfare has always been popular. Perhaps modern man doesn't have the artistry of Tamerlane's men when it comes to building towers of skulls, but we can produce the numbers, and improve on them when appropriate.
Likewise, in even the smallest state you have statism, and patronage of the crown, of what's called the palace economy. And you had the war economy in the ancient world, too. Rome and the Ottomans were able to keep taxes low and bring in cheap labor through constant warfare and successes in warfare. Then the victories stopped coming...
And in any case, I don't see how the essentials of oligarchy and spreading privilege to one's friends and family is more common to large states than small states. Just tell the Athenians that war is more profitable to larger states.
Now, on another point, you might say that if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Once you become an empire that stretches over either multiple ethnicities or regions, you will have bastards who want to use those resources. Sure, you're absolutely right about that. But that doesn't mean that smaller states won't do the same to still smaller states. Advantage will be pressed, whether you're the ruler of a continent or a city. You may have some decrease in warfare from the small states when there are large states concerned about suppressing such conflict. But that's more about large state advantage than inherent peacefulness of small states.
Why did Saddam ask the US for permission to invade Kuwait? Not because he was a (relatively) small state ruler and therefore was less warlike, but because larger states set the legitimacy of conflict in the regions they control. But this says nothing of small states' tendency to war! This dynamic is apparent in classical history up through the oh-so-different "modern age."
Large is a relative term. In a world of city-states, Athens was, relative to Melos, a great power, and acted accordingly.
I never meant that the weaker were better than the stronger, just that precisely because they're weaker, they're a lot less dangerous to the rest of us (the ones that are not our neighbours, anyway).
The big guys are all bastards because they can, and that's reason enough to fear and hate them all.
So Persia acts like a big state to Athens, Athens acts like a big state to Melos... As I said, not a matter of scale. A human universal.
But in a woprld where there are no big bastards, will warfare really decrease? Because the little bastards are still there.
Chambers' demolition of Atlas Shrugged hits the mark, if you ask me.
Ha Ha. Too funny. Jay Vivian Chambers, worshipper at the church of Lenin's authoritarianism, writes 'scathing' review for Skull and Bones pothead's fascist rag.
As for what I am..
Lemme guess. Does it begin with a Z?
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