Now Juan Cole is a smart guy, but he may want to stick to what he knows rather than venting sanctimonious outrage at Sarah Palin who, though generally out of her depth in her coming-out party, managed to say at least one true thing as regards foreign policy. Cole:
The scariest thing in the [interview] was this exchange:Okay. Dude. Article 5 of The North American Treaty:'When Gibson said if under the NATO treaty, the United States would have to go to war if Russia again invaded Georgia,But look at the video below. It is the alacrity with which she says "perhaps so" that is so alarming. He asked her specifically about having to go to war with Russia over Georgia and she said, "perhaps so!" As though a war with a nuclear power was just the most natural and expected thing in the world.
Palin responded: "Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help.
[...]
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.So in other words, if Georgia were to become a signatory to the North Atlantic Treaty, and Russia again invaded, the question of whether or not we'd go to war with Russia is best answered thusly: "Perhaps so."
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
Of course, that very answer is why Georgia will never be part of NATO, no matter what Dick Cheney, John McCain, and Jesus Christ arisen himself have to say about it.
23 comments:
Too true. McCain would never go to war with Russia because that would be reckless, irresponsible, and insane - and a U.S. president would never do anything like that!
i'm sure i'm not the only one who thought "two posts about John Cole in one day???"
then i actually followed the link. i've been fooled by those too-similarly named bloggers so many times....
...and i'll stick around long enough to say that i'm not really sure what you're chastising (this) Cole for. or rather, it seems like what you're ripping him for is not supported at all by your quote.
looks to me like he's outraged (faux or not) by Palin's seeming eagerness in talking about going to war with Russia. unless he's a fan of putting Georgia in NATO, i don't see where he deserves your "should stick to what he knows" attack. Georgia not being in NATO and not likely to be joining it anytime soon, it makes sense to be a little scared by a potential president being like: "Yeah, we may have to fuck Russia up" -- full stop -- without adding a bunch of qualifiers about how that's not actually going to happen. especially since i think Palin's generally allied with people who WANT Georgia in NATO.
when someone who wants Georgia in NATO talks blithely about how that might cause full-out war with Russia, well, that's kind of talk a foreign policy expert should probably call out.
again, maybe i'm missing something here. i don't read cole that frequently.
Honestly isn't it time to disband NATO, or at least have the US drop out of it?
IOZ, you are so out of the loop. Which is why we tune in. Loving living off the grid so well. It's the alacrity with with which she got right a finer point of international law that is so alarming. Plus, she's a whore, or something. I mean, am I right, fellas?
Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb… Edward Teller may have been right after all. Too bad he'll never know.
More wine!
Who's the new anonymous?
me.
btw, don't mean to come off too critical b/c as others have said in previous threads, you have been on point all week long. i just didn't get this one.
God, really? You don't get this one?
IOZ is saying that Cole needn't get his panties in a bunch over Annie Oakley ineptly rattling a saber at the Ivans, because they can actually, ya know, fight back and shit (which is not to say the Iraqis can't do so also, mind you, they just can't do it on a scale that makes us go "oh shit, we shouldn't done that"). The Russians can seriously fuck us up, and Vlad knows it, and furthermore, he knows that even if by some bizarre circumstance Georgia does get into the dork parade that is NATO, we still ain't attacking Russia, even if Vlad takes a shit on Shakalakaboomstickiv after judoing the shit out of him. The US don't bomb nobody what can bomb us back, ya dig? We may be big, dumb savages, but we're also into self-preservation.
OT, IOZ, but I recall you being a Billmon fan - did you know he's back posting again?
But IOZ, everyone knows Georgia provoked Russia into attacking...
"...including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."
There's always the 'out' clause. These treaties aren't written by total dummies.
bobbyp
Oh, fuck off, Anonymous #2 at 12:17 AM. IOZ doesn't need to hide behind the skirts of his commenters; he's a big boy.
Anon #1: what IOZ meant to say is that since starting a war with Russia would be insane, there's no way that a U.S. President would do it, because U.S. Presidents will always and ever behave in perfectly sane ways. They would never, for example, nearly reduce the world to nuclear ash over a tiny island in the Caribbean, for instance.
IOZ knows the score, see. He knows, with his perfectly oracular foresight, exactly how it's all going down, man, and while the news is always Very Very Bad, it's never so bad that it would muss his own delicate coiffure.
Is Juan Cole clean Cole?
What happens when one superpower elects a leader who doesn't understand what MAD stands for?
What happens when one superpower elects a leader who doesn't understand what MAD stands for?
Careful with talk like that! That might imply that the Greater Evil might be evil enough to justify rooting for the Lesser Evil just a bit!
it's not like they count those votes anyway
I don't get it. Since Georgia is not a member of NATO, then the US is not obliged to go to war in its defense if Russia attacks it. So the answer Palin should have given was "Of course not."
If Georgia became a NATO member, that would change, but so far it remains a mere hypothetical, like saying that if Tibet were to join NATO, the US would be obligated to defend Tibet against China.
Palin also considers Georgia a "democratic" country, which I suppose it is if you consider Russia (or the US) to be one. Is it only bad if a larger country other than the US invades a smaller country, unprovoked? I rather suspect that Palin thinks it would be just nifty if the US were to invade, say, Iran; and it's always possible to find "provocations" that demand retaliation.
Whether Palin is as scary as Cole thinks may be debated. I suspect her position is not that far from Obama's, though.
I think it was posed a hypothetical, yeah. Those kinds of things tend to happen when a question starts with the word "if."
And as far as answers go, "perhaps so" is, as noted, certainly a logically consistent answer given the way the Charter is constructed. I mean, is there another reason for NATO... other than getting the US to adopt 7.62mm ammo, that is?
And as far as skirts... not my thing really, though if I were batting for the home team, I'd be glad to have IOZ behind 'em. But not for protection. So gaybait somewhere the fuck else, Chris.
As it is, I'm only here to be annoying, not to defend anyone. LemmeknowhowI'mdoin. kthx
So gaybait somewhere the fuck else
Oh, please. This place rains gay and gendered barbs on a daily basis. Don't claim to suddenly get offended when someone not named IOZ uses one.
I suspect her position is not that far from Obama's, though.
Find me where Obama's said the U.S. should go to war with Russia and I'll agree.
Poor old Christopher. He's a querulous rube waiting in line to get ripped off. It's a known rip-off, but staying the course is socially safe. For comfort, he nags strayers to get back in line. When he's bored with the wait on line, he detects immorality in any breach of the proprieties laid down by the rip-off artists. When he's too peevish to stand it anymore, he excuses his sad, limping vulgarities in the same way as wingnuts who are offended that people take offense at being called "nigger".
For his next sideshow act, he demands divination, and insists that the entrails of sales pitches are the proper medium for finding the will of the gods.
Heh. Chris likes my gendered barb.
Promiscuous Reader et al.,
Go back to the transcript of the interview, and you'll find that the reason Gibson asked this question was because Palin said she was in favor of putting Georgia into NATO immediately before:
CHARLIE GIBSON, ABC NEWS: Are you in favor of putting Georgia and Ukraine into NATO?
SARAH PALIN, GOP VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ukraine, definitely, yes. Yes, and Georgia. Putin thinks otherwise, obviously he thinks otherwise. But…
GIBSON: And the NATO Treaty, wouldn't we then have to go to war if Russia went into Georgia?
PALIN: Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help.
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