Friday, October 24, 2008

If You Mention It, They Will Cum

I can't in, uh, good faith link him directly, but I can link to The Editors linking him, and by him, of course, I mean rebbe Dennis Prager, who worries:

The sexual confusion that same-sex marriage will create among young people is not fully measurable. Suffice it to say that, contrary to the sexual know-nothings who believe that sexual orientation is fixed from birth and permanent, the fact is that sexual orientation is more of a continuum that ranges from exclusive heterosexuality to exclusive homosexuality. Much of humanity--especially females--can enjoy homosexual sex. It is up to society to channel polymorphous human sexuality into an exclusively heterosexual direction — until now, accomplished through marriage.
The persistent male conviction that lesbianism is more prevalent than dude-on-dude action is, how-you-say, perfectly reflective of a desperate insecurity in the masculine psyche. Otherwise, what strikes me most about this sort of writing is how Prager pivots from a reasonable and mature view of the actual nature of human sexuality to an insane and alarmist declaration that It Must Be Controlled. The dogmatic insistence that sexual "orientation" is biologically predetermined and innate, and that because it's inherent it must not be used as a basis for discrimination, has always struck me as farcically reductionist, an argument for determining a just social order by cataloging those things which cannot be helped and agreeing not to pay attention to them.

But sexuality isn't the same as race (well, even race isn't the same as race), and though it, like all human behaviors, has genetic and hormonal antecedents, it is not mere biological determinism that causes me to suck cock. Predilection is not identity. Human sexuality does exist on a spectrum; its characteristics and emphases change even within the individual over the course of a lifetime. Some people have very stable sexual interests; others "oscillate wildly," as goes the title of The Smiths' song. The fight against discrimination based on sexual identity is categorically confused: sexuality doesn't constitute an identity. It constitutes a portion of the totality of each autonomous individual identity, and the reason not to discriminate against those whose sexual tastes and practices diverge from your own is not that minority sexualities constitute a protected class, that like the color of one's skin, the angle of one's wrist is genetic and, goddamnit, queers are people too. It's simply that fucking is none of your fucking business.

For divines like Dennis P., though, moral autonomy in the absence of demonstrable harm to others is just crazy talk. They perceive themselves as agents of heavenly authority, and they believe that they're compelled to enforce their deity's moral injunctions on others here on this earth. Ultimately Prager et al. are making a very tired argument about sin and free will, claiming that in sexual behaviors and practices there are right and wrong choices, good and evil ones. (Their god is extremely punctilious in these matters.) You have the freedom to choose, but you must choose correctly. The proper action is determined in advance by the formal, scriptural strictures on morality and good conduct. God created the tree in your garden; don't eat the fruit.

Religious moralists interestingly see sin as infinitely more alluring than righteousness. They are beset by temptation. Prager sounds like some of the more extravagant queens I know as he proclaims that straight men everywhere are going to be swiftly and easily turned. Ooo, girl, he says he's straight . . . Truly, though, gay sex is much less popular, and while exposing The Children Who Are The Future to early and frank talk about homosexual variants of sexual practice will bless them with much less consternation about that time in seventh grade when you and your buddies jerked off together to that porno you stole from Billy Baron's house down the street, it will not, in fact, turn the nation into a bathhouse . . . to my chagrin.

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

OT, but IOZ, fess up, you did this to this poor girl, dinncha?:

http://wonkette.com/403779/a-childrens-treasury-of-ashley-todd-updates#more-403779

Heightening the contradictions, right?

IOZ said...

She's just lucky that the dolphins swam her to shore.

Montag said...

...crazy talk. They perceive themselves as agents of heavenly authority, and they believe that they're compelled to enforce their deity's moral injunctions on others here on this earth.

i thought there might be an underlying, perhaps latent, concern that we aren't reproducing enough. people i disagree with are always on about how this group or that group will eventually outnumber "us" if we're not careful. and the army always needs new recruits. plus it all dovetails nicely with moral injunctions against birth control and abortion as well.

i believe there is too many of "us." we need to breed more gays. that's why i'm bringing my kids up queer. and i'll have them askin and tellin just to keep out of the army.

Leonard said...

The dogmatic insistence that sexual "orientation" is biologically predetermined and innate, and that because it's inherent it must not be used as a basis for discrimination, has always struck me as farcically reductionist, an argument for determining a just social order by cataloging those things which cannot be helped and agreeing not to pay attention to them.

(1) Sexual orientation is largely innate. And this is not about dogma (most religious dogma runs the other way, that it's a pure choice). It's the best science can do at this point. The American Psychological Association: "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation". There is clearly a genetic aspect to it.

(2) I do think that "because it's inherent it must not be used as a basis for discrimination", at least for a narrow reading of "discrimination" -- that is, state discrimination unrelated to any compelling state goal. I acknowledge that this is a religious position, containing "ought", not "is". But it does seem to me to essentially summarize the goal of the 14th amendment and a near-universally held tenet of the American faith.

Do you disagree?

(3) I would agree that it is "reductionist" to determine "a just social order by cataloging those things which cannot be helped and agreeing not to pay attention to them." But I don't think that it is farcical -- this is, after all, basically the kernel of progressivism, at least if you add on some concept of "mitigate and equalize". Progressivism is the most powerful and important political faith of our time. Calling it a farce, well, it might be, but they're the folks that like to coerce for their own good, so I'd tread lightly.

Personally, I like the idea of reductionist political philosophy. Because nobody is every going to agree on holistic matters of faith; it's only when you reduce something to the very basics that we can get broad social agreement without coercion.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I think this blog could use some Paulbot types. I mean, all these principled stands just won't stand, man. Balko! has better trolls. fuck, even Protein Wisdom has better trolls.

Progressivism is the most powerful and important political faith of our time. Calling it a farce, well, it might be, but they're the folks that like to coerce for their own good, so I'd tread lightly.

I'd call this statement the best meta mis-understanding of this blog ever. nice one.

pwogwessive's are the one's most in need of a proper rousting. you can substitute an a for the u in there, too.

I wanna recipe!

IOZ said...

Leonard: I'm not sure I'd put the APA and "the best science can do" so close together. It's like bleach after Drano. There will "clearly" be a genetic aspect to it when neuroscience develops a theory accounting for sexual attraction and genetics demonstrates how our genes encode instructions for the relevant neural structures and chemical processes. I happen to believe that genetics and hormonal factors (from the mother in utero, and in our own bodies) "has genetic and hormonal antecedents." Which is why I wrote it.

Having a "choice" in the matter isn't germane to the question of sexuality-as-biology. Sexuality is a complex of human behaviors and physical conditions. That a person "naturally" tends toward a certain mean of sexual behavior without "choosing" it could just as easily be made into an argument that sexuality is purely a matter of social conditioning and early childhood trauma, whatever. You're misconstruing the argument.

And I do not believe that you can achieve "broad social agreement" without coercion.

IOZ said...

I happen to believe that genetics and hormonal factors (from the mother in utero, and in our own bodies) "has genetic and hormonal antecedents." Which is why I wrote it.

Whoops. Cut and paste = bad. Let's try again:

I happen to believe that human sexuality "has genetic and hormonal (both in utero and in our own bodies) antecedents." Which is why I wrote it.

Montag said...

It's simply that Fucking. Is. None of. Your. Fucking. Business.


i doubt i've used the full-stop, sentence-fragment convention correctly here, but oh well.

Anonymous said...

How dare you talk about Dennis Perrin like this?

AlanSmithee said...

IOZ, please give mr fun a recipe. Don't let the poor thing pout too long.

Anonymous said...

Oh, also: what are the words with which you are using to speak, Willis?

Leonard said...

Monsieur, we seem to agree that human sexuality is substantially innate (genetic and/or fixed in utero). But I think we are just disagreeing about whether or not that is "clear".

Well, one man's claret is another man's swill. It's clear to me, at least, maybe not yet to you.


That a person "naturally" tends toward a certain mean of sexual behavior without "choosing" it could just as easily be made into an argument that sexuality is purely a matter of social conditioning and early childhood trauma

What?? This makes no sense. That a person naturally (i.e. innately) does or wants X, is in fact a refutation of the idea that X is "purely a matter of [environment]". If X is caused in whole or in part by Y, it cannot also be caused only by Z.


I do not believe that you can achieve "broad social agreement" without coercion.

I notice you ignored my assertion that there is broad social agreement in America that we should not discriminate (at least absent compelling state interest) based on inalterable, innate traits. Do you think that is not true? That an overwhelming majority of Americans -- 80, 90% -- do not, in fact, believe that? Or do you think this social agreement was brought about via coercion?

Alaya said...

What?? This makes no sense. That a person naturally (i.e. innately) does or wants X, is in fact a refutation of the idea that X is "purely a matter of [environment]". If X is caused in whole or in part by Y, it cannot also be caused only by Z.

Leonard, you forget the subconscious.

Environment (in combination with some sort of genetic predisposition) pushing someone towards one sexual tendency with no conscious perception of "choice" is entirely consonant with the massive body of evidence saying that conscious human decision making is, well, overrated.

We do what we do because the ego has no fucking clue why we're doing it.

la Rana said...

Well now you've drawn me out of the woodwork again.

What IOZie said makes perfect sense (I'd tell that fag if it didn't). You didn't have any more choice about your own childrearing than you did in choosing your chomosomes. So, uh, right.

As for discrimination, your proposition is slightly less naive than the easily chantable prohibition on all discrimination. Proof in two steps: 1) think of all the human characteristics that are innate/inalterable (hair, eyes, shape, size, senses, muscle mass, age, etc. etc.) 2) realize that you are asking the state to enforce non-discrimination on all of these inalterable characteristics, all of the time.

the_system said...

The American Psychological Association: "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation"

I despise onions. I think they're absolutely disgusting. Ditto country music. I "experience" little or no choice in either matter.

I do not, however, find it necessary to labor under the delusion that my every arbitrary predilection is the manifestation of some biological albatross. Human psychology, including sexuality, is simply not reducible to such causes. It's fair to say that nature generally makes us want to fuck in the first place, and equally appropriate to note that the prevalence of homosexual behavior elsewhere in the animal kingdom does imply that sexual preference is subject to the influence of a biological component. But the action of human biology in these matters is filtered through the funhouse mirror of human minds, and to go much further than asserting banalities is to try and build a fortress on a bed of sand.

The fact that you can't get it up if your partner isn't dressed up like a Wookie, in other words, ain't your DNA's fault.

Christopher said...

Me, I always think of insanity. What do we do with the criminally insane?

If I'm found not guilty of my shooting spree for reasons of mental defect (Fingers crossed, folks!), then they don't just let me back out onto the streets to wander around freely.

The main criteria we (should) use for defining acceptable behavior is harm, not innateness.

fledermaus said...

none the less. Social norms can influence behavior. The Greeks were bunch of buggering old bastards to a certain extent because of the general acceptance, unlike Rome.

TGGP said...

It's usually dumb liberals that use the continuum-not-a-dichotomy-maaaaaaan argument. Of course in a normal distribution the concentration is at the center while in this case it is bimodal with even fewer bis than faggots. And according to Bailey women aren't really one way or the other. That seems consistent with the rate of carpet-munchers being about half that of fudge-packers simultaneously while faux-lesbianism (often to tittilate males) abounds.

I've always found Greg Cochran's theory the only one that seems consistent with evolution. The Red Queen can never make progress because the environment is racing with the same speed she is.

Anonymous said...

"It's simply that Fucking. Is. None of. Your. Fucking. Business.


i doubt i've used the full-stop, sentence-fragment convention correctly here, but oh well."

I think the conventional format here would be "None. Of your. Fucking. Business." but you have the essentials right, as well do you have the essentials of the argument.

The "they can't help it" argument never fails to annoy me, because it tries to excuse a behavior that needs no such thing. My preference of strawberry ice cream to chocolate is of equivalent relevance.

erin4iraq said...

Leonard: Haven't you ever heard not to use the word "clearly" in an argument - as in "There is clearly a genetic aspect to it"? It's the first thing I look for in an opponent's argument because it generally flags a point concerning which the evidence is anything but.

Leonard said...

Erin: no, I have not heard that.

Go read, oh I don't know... wikipedia? It's not like it's so fucking hard any more to pretend to be an intellectual and actually know things, or at least be able to use a search engine and educamate yourself on the spot when you're wondering about whether or not something is clear. "Clear", I mean, to people who know anything and/or to dogs who read wiki.

Your simplistic heuristic for analyzing argument clearly needs some work.

erin4iraq said...

Well let's see, if even a gay person does not agree with that sexual orientation is genetically predetermined, your point may not be so clear.

But because I am feeling magnanimously heuristic today, here's another tip for you. When seeking to persuade someone to your point of view, it's best not to insult them in the process.

That, and you should go fuck yourself because with that attitude you are clearly not getting any.

Brian said...

So..erin4ConsensualSodomy, in the world where the American invasion of Iraq is STILL a good thing, there are gay friends of friends that, when they were a teenager, just randomly "decided" to be gay?

Wow. Sure fits in with the people I know.

erin4iraq said...

I have no idea what determines sexual preference/orientation - genetics, hormones, decisions that one makes along the way, or something else. All I am trying to say is that I find it interesting that IOZ questions the genetic predestination position, and that I appreciate his intellectual honesty, and that this Leonard person seems like an arrogant jerk.

Leonard said...

genetically predetermined

Your words, not mine. Apparently you saw "genetic aspect" and read "genetically determined". Or perhaps you think that "innate" means "genetic". (It doesn't.) Please pay attention. I try not to write things that I don't mean. I certainly don't want you doing it for me.

IOZ and I agree, BTW, as far as I can tell. His argument is not that sexuality is not genetically determined, but neither is mine. He and I disagree on the matter of what is "clear". He wants a chemical theory of mind, basically, before he is "clear". I can be clear with just twin study correlations, weak genetic correlations, fMRIs, animal studies, etc. -- stuff that's been done.

I have no idea what determines sexual preference

Yes, that is the problem. You have no idea and yet you are sure I am wrong to think that some level of genetic causation is clear. Clearly, you need to educate yourself a little on this topic, and it just isn't hard what with the web at your fingertips. Which is exactly what I told you.

I admit to some heated language, but hell -- this is fucking IOZ's house. It's fucking this and fucking that all day long in here, because we've got the Big Liebowski on 24/7.

Get some ideas about the actual subject before you mount your high horse and tell me what I should find clear. Meet me with something other than meta-argumentation and I will answer your arguments with more respect.

Anonymous said...

....Yeah! Get some ideas, why don't you! Stupid!

erin4iraq said...

Ok, well what IOZ actually said was: "The dogmatic insistence that sexual 'orientation' is biologically predetermined and innate, and that because it's inherent it must not be used as a basis for discrimination, has always struck me as farcically reductionist . . . ."

He labels the insistence that sexual orientation is "biologically predetermined and innate" as "dogmatic."

He also says "There will 'clearly' be a genetic aspect to it when neuroscience develops a theory accounting for sexual attraction and genetics demonstrates how our genes encode instructions for the relevant neural structures and chemical processes."

I think it's a fair read of that to say that IOZ is at least skeptical about the genetics argument.

But my goal, which you misread, was never to engage you in masterdebating the whole sexual orientation causation issue. My point is more to suggest to you that simply saying something is clear doesn't make it so and assuming that everyone will agree with you because you throw the word into an argument just makes you seem like a preening ass. I mean, "meta-argumentation"?? Sheesh.

Black Sea said...

There is a difference between sexual preference and sexual practice. Most men prefer to have sex with beautiful women ages 18 - 24. Most men are not having sex with such women.

While sexual prefererence may be largely innate, the evidence from boarding schools and prisons (from what I hear) is that lots of people make compromises with reality. This may be what Dennis Perrin was worrying about. Boys who can't get into girls pants may start trying to get into each others.

So far as men believing that women are more receptive to homosexual liasons, this may just as easily reflect male fantasy ans male anxiety. As everybody knows, men are aroused by female homosexuality, although the women they imagine engaged in such activity rarely resemble your run-of-the mill dyke.

Ah well, reality is usually a let-down.

Brian said...

I think you meant Dennis Prager. :) Dennis Perrin may be a blue collar tough guy, but I don't think The Gay Agenda is high on his list of issues. :)

Black Sea said...

I couldn't look at the post while writing my comment. I'm writing from a country (Turkey) where all "blogspot" blogs are now banned by court order. There are ways around the ban, but you lose a lot of feaures when you try to post on your own site, or comment on somebody elses.

My apologies to Dennis Perrin. I'm not at all sure that this comment is going to make it.

mnuez said...

I agree with you and Prager with regards to reality. As for MORality, I can hear both sides of the argument, yours a.k.a "The Libertarian Argument", and the one that Dennis would have liked to make but is too obtuse to. That argument would be that few things are more important to human happiness than successful spousehood and that is best acheived in a world where all sexual pleasures are excluseively reserved for that union.

[ Being however how no one outside of the Islamic and Orthodox Jewish communities even makes that argument anymore (at least not seriously), I can see few reasons for not allowing (or encouraging) any and all sorts of sexual contacts, including with members of one's own gender were one inclined (and were it truly seen as "no big deal", rather than as a lifelong sentence of "being" innately homosexual, I imagine that most everyone would be inclined in one lazy moment or another, just as we've all tried some foreign food found suddenly before us). ]

mnuez