Well let's continue the series.
Why is a third-party, violence-by-proxy guarantee of the diffuse individual ownership of parceled land and goods, called "property," not called "social engineering"? What is the innate legitimacy of such a system? The answer: such a system provides the conditions necessary to achieve the greatest general welfare and prosperity. The follow-up: doesn't that open the door to other schemes to promote welfare and prosperity? Where's the deontological line?
Libertarianism isn't really a philosophy that repudiates coercion. Libertarians believe in government, albeit government strictly curtailed and circumscribed. (Question: by whom? For how long?) Obviously their outlook owes much to classical liberalism. But why is it obvious that securing private property rights is within the legitimate purview of state responsibility, whereas, say, guaranteeing gender equity in the workplace is not? Well, you say, the former is far less intrusive. Preventing the expropriation of property through theft or intimidation is a much less subjective matter than determining what constitutes gender fairness. Is it?
Libertarians believe in a justice system, albeit a limited one. (Limited by whom? For how long?) Defining murder is easier than defining securities fraud. Outlawing armed robbery is different from regulating a stock market. How much easier? How different?
Once you begin to justify a state, the line between what is and isn't in its compelling interest blur. Establishing some entity, some agency, whose purpose is to establish and maintain a base-level social order for the provision, at least pursuit, of general welfare and prosperity (personal or otherwise) is social engineering. Why not just advocate for anarchy? Why not advocate for a system in which no third-party collective, no state entity, has coercive authority over anyone.
Well, you say, then someone will just gather up a gang and establish a . . .
Which may be true. But if that's the case, what's the bright distinction between chartering a gang and knuckling under to one?
Thursday, November 20, 2008
Liberalism. Libertarianism. Anarchism.
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Anarchy,
Libertarianism
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I'm not sure I understand your final question (otherwise the post is the kind of writing I that warrants frequent visits here).
But...if I am understanding you correctly, are you advocating a state of endless gang warfare-because if one does not want to knuckle under one gang, that means that one has to form or join one's own. I'm not sure that is very appealing to the average person-especially in an overcrowded urbanized world where it's hard to get away from enemy "tribes." There is still plenty of coercion of various types in Neil Stephenson novels.
Is Somalia really the best social structure? (I understand that Somalia also reflects generations of Western Colonial interference, but...)
What is the difference between deontology and ethics? I wonder. They call it deontology (well, deontoloji) in Turkish medical schools, and it somehow includes medical history.
As for your 'gang' issue, I think the argument would be that when governed by certain selection rituals, the coalition of interests in state-gangs is broader than in anarchy-gangs. That distinction might be less material to an elitist though!
and people look at me funny and respond (aghast!) with a certain level of disdain and sorrow when I refer to myself a slave. sheesh, at least I know what I'm talking about. work harder, fools!
fuck that shit.
now when you say ownership and when you say property rights - what you mean is protection of these rights by an outside agency - usually a government with a big stick.
who fucking cares about the distinction anymore? can I go now? are you done talking?
But why is it obvious that securing private property rights is within the legitimate purview of state responsibility, whereas, say, guaranteeing gender equity in the workplace is not?
Ooh, that's an easy one: because in each case, the proposed action is to the benefit of the libertarian in question. It's no more principled than, well, just about any other political philosophy - it's just an elaborate rationalisation of selfishness.
If a libertarian were to admit that the cause of liberty requires him to give up his existing social and economic privileges, I might start taking him seriously.
the coalition of interests in state-gangs is broader than in anarchy-gangs.
Is it? Is it necessarily?
if I am understanding you correctly, are you advocating a state of endless gang warfare
And how, exactly, would that differ from what's gone on throughout the entirety of human history? The gangs are generally larger now, and much of the warfare is ritualised, but it's still the same dynamic.
Necessarily: no. Mazarin's France was obviously a state. You're discounting the selection rituals I take it.
All gangs have selection rituals. Thank you sir, may I have another.
"anarchy gangs"
Which is a total misnomer anyway, because it assumes the non-anarchist definition of anarchy -- like when a non-anarchist observer decries the emergence of "anarchy" when multiple political factions compete for power immediately following the dissolution of a region's government.
They're not really "anarchy gangs," so much as non-anarchists responding to the vacuum of power by trying to re-establish a new hierarchical power structure. Government by other means (or the violent process of establishing government by other means) is not anarchy (or, at least, not anarchism).
Gang rule -- whether of the informal "anarchy gang" variety, or the formal plutocratic one we enjoy today -- can only really be prevented by the emergence of a rather significant population of persons dedicated to a single principal: the refusal to give orders, and the refusal to follow them.
I'm sorry, I wasn't listening.
Preventing the expropriation of property through theft or intimidation is a much less subjective matter than determining what constitutes gender fairness. Is it?
it is because I say it is, bitch.
Gang rule -- whether of the informal "anarchy gang" variety, or the formal plutocratic one we enjoy today -- can only really be prevented by the emergence of a rather significant population of persons dedicated to a single principal: the refusal to give orders, and the refusal to follow them.
A State of Being which is as likely as the creation of the New Communist Man whose perfected nature will enable the wonderous Communist State to flower.
We're hopped up Chimpanzees who LIKE coercing (and being coerced).
It's a better dream than the commie or the anarcho-capitalist or the paeloconservative ones, but...
See, I read this not as an argument for anarchy, but as an argument for throwing up one's hands and accepting the State (and a pretty decent argument at that). You're never going to get a stateless world, because human beings want control over other human beings, and can fairly readily establish control over human beings by controlling more wealth and resources. Those lucky enough to have control of resources - "rich people," let's call them - will always be the ones to run the gangs, because the people making up those gangs need the rich people's resources and it's easier to work for them than it is to rise up in Glorious Popular Revolution. And rich people eventually will want formal recognition of the legitimacy of their gangs, which is why they form governments in the first place. So we really are stuck with government, at least until the species is wiped out. "Anarchy" in this context is just a kind of magical thinking. The most we can do is do what little we can to make the world a more livable place for ourselves and those around us and hope that future gang leaders will be somewhat less greedy and bloodthirsty than they have been in the past.
So, I ask, how does one achieve "gender equity in the workplace" say, for male waiters at Hooters or female roughnecks on drillin' rigs?
Um, "certain" selection rituals. I mean, really! I don't think you've finished what's on your plate young man.
See, I thought you dropped the "certain" on purpose the second time around 'cause you realized it was kind of goofy. I mean, urban street gangs practice rituals ranging from secret-society type initiations to juried democratic selection and removal of leaders. Mafias use heredity like monarchs. I mean, hell, if you look at corner crews within the context of larger drug gangs from the right angle, the whole fuckin' thing looks like the goddamn electoral college.
The most we can do is do what little we can to make the world a more livable place for ourselves and those around us and hope that future gang leaders will be somewhat less greedy and bloodthirsty than they have been in the past.
Or, maybe some of us could try to stop coercing others, and try to stop supporting the coercion of others, and try to stop ourselves from being coerced by others, and then just see where that takes us.
praise the Lord I just found Jesus!
There are libertarians who are also anarchists. They sometimes call themselves "anarcho-capitalists". One such is David Friedman, who explains a stateless emergence of property rights here.
I'm not an anarchist because I look around and see lots of governments and no power-vacuums that stay free of the state. So I conclude anarchy is not a stable equilibrium. I want to fill the power-vacuum with the least shitty variety of government to prevent a shittier one from taking its place. I don't commit the libertarian vice as I concede some governments really are more shitty than others. As long as governmental collapse and replacement seems unlikely, I say keep moving away from East Berlin/North Korea by trimming the State. At the extreme end you could talk about a "State" consisting of me, my shotgun and my yard in which case let the totalitarian dictatorship roll (it's nice when you're the dictator).
Speaking of Somalia, it improved under anarchy. Expecting it to turn into Liechtenstein would be silly though.
Well, urban street gangs are membership organizations, not corporate entities with a geographically delimited catchment area. Ergo the two selection rituals is different. "That blessed word, 'democracy'"...
Cmon, clean plate club!
Aaron, were you even paying attention to the last two seasons of The Wire? they had the Co-Op, man. why do you think Bodie was so upset over Marlo's take over?
also, I was just born here, QED.
Well, urban street gangs are membership organizations, not corporate entities with a geographically delimited catchment area.
Well, that's only half true. True that street gangs don't exactly subscribe to implied consent theory (although they're not strictly membership orgs à la the Masons, or whomever); false about territory. Street gangs, especially as regards entrepreneurial ventures, are highly geographically delimited. Territory and borders are known to the block. Incursions or disputes over borders result in border conflicts. Bam! Your turn!
Corporate entities, or corporations, are just as much memberships organisations as urban street gangs, the main difference being that corporations are recognised as legal entities by the state.
urban street gangs are recognized as legal entities as well, usually at hearing.
RICO!
A 'catchment area' means everybody in it has rights of access. Ergo different selection ritual, Blood.
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
1. anarchy = social engineering.
2. To be born is to be ruled.
QED
PS: IOZ--your post is dead. solid. perfect.
a. That's not really the definition of a catchment area;
b. if it were, it would define no state, society, civilization, or culture since the advent of agriculture, not even my favorite, the Harappa Culture
Volley.
what are you a civil engineer? 'catchment area'? go delineate your watershed area, and then come get my plate!
"But if that's the case, what's the bright distinction between chartering a gang and knuckling under to one?" According to Mao, it's not a dinner party.
Yeah, Somalia's got anarchy, and they're lovin' it:
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-update-yo-ho-ho-and-a-tanker-of-crude/
Why is a third-party, violence-by-proxy guarantee of the diffuse individual ownership of parceled land and goods, called "property," not called "social engineering"?
You could call it that with some justice. But it's really a matter of the spin on the words.
Let's consider the word "engineering". It has several connotations, but let's just focus on two.
First, to engineer sometime is to design it with an outcome in mind. Typically a specific outcome. So, we'd happily talk about designing a bridge as engineering. We'd be less likely to call, say, Jackson Pollock painting another "masterpiece" by dropping paint off a ladder as "engineering a painting".
Property will and must exist in some form, private or public or a mix, in any imaginable human society. The more private ownership is, the less the state can plan. Thus, private property as an institution "engineers" the society only in a very broad sense. By comparison, the Communist states really did engineer all sorts of things via the public ownership of everything. For example, Stalin engineered a dramatic reduction in the population of Ukraine.
Second, to engineer something is typically a centralized process. So, we'd happily talk about the process of programming blogger.com as "software engineering". We'd be less likely to call the process of using blogger "engineering the blogosphere".
Private property is not centralized, so the social results that spring from it (people creating wealth and living their lives in incredibly diverse manners as they see fit) are only in a hazy sense "engineered". Whereas, in a command economy many things are engineered. When you start talking about the state implementing social goals, you're into engineering again.
As for why social engineering in its modern sense is anathema to libertarians, it is because libertarians seek to minimize the state. They do this exactly because of the coercion inherent in the operation of the state.
Some of us seek to do away with the state altogether, eliminating it and governing men by other means. Others think the "nightwatchman" state is the desired end. I am with you, in believing the nightwatchman state to be unstable. But nonetheless, it still will enforce private property rights, because as I said above, property (in some form) is a necessary institution in every imaginable human society. Even anarchy is incoherent without private property; so called "left anarchists" who advocate no ownership at all are deluded both in thinking it possible, and in not realizing how unstable it would be if they somehow managed to minimize owned things. Mere anarchy is not stable.
So, there's a bright line one can easily draw between private property and state-enforced gender quotas: a state with property cannot necessarily be reduced in size (thus, coerciveness), because property cannot be abolished. But a state which enforces gender quotas can be reduced in size by abolishing them. Because this reduces coercion, it is an end sought by most libertarians.
Note that in anarchy, it is at least conceivable that some protection agencies would enforce gender quotas. They do what the market for government services demands. How many customers would pay for enforced gender quotas -- hard to say, but I cannot say for certain it would not be profitable.
This is one reason I am an anarchist, not a minarchist. Although I do not think gender-quotas would be one, it is possible to imagine many other far more likely uses of coercion by government that would, in fact, be popular enough that people would pay extra to get them.
Leonard, some private property is likey in any state. But native Americans managed to get by without a 3rd party enforcing property rights pretty well. Or at lest with a much more strict definition of property.
But any property enforcement regime is subject to subversion by those who possess vast amounts of property, the elite we'll call them. It is also subject to overreach from that state you so fear. Just try to use a 1950s image of bugs bunny in an ad. Despite the fact that the creator of the image is long dead, you won't get far. All property is theft (thank you Robert anton Wilson). Show me one state that enforces property rights impartically and without favor and I'll shred my passport here and now and move there.
You are right that anarchy is not a stable state. But that is because it is not a system of collective organization, it only explains why things are the way they are, it doesn't offer socital solutions. If you want to see an anarchist state first you need a bunch of anarchists, and they' re in short supply these days
In the end, as I understand it, anarchists refuse to be controlled by other peoples rules, but they can see the merit in collective enforcement of some rules, a prohibition on murder for example.
It goes back to the reality that there are no rules, only the ability to impose consequences on other people for not following your rules. Of course such efforts are eventually doomed to fail, which is why revolutions exist
Which is all a long way of saying live your life well but don't try to force your will on others. It'd be nice to see the bulk of humanity adopt such a creed but in light of 8000 years of recorded history my hopes are not that high
Leonard is retarded.
blogger is responsible for what the large majority of the blogging world looks like, how it acts, how bloggers interact with each other, and with commentors, so on and so forth. blogger has helped engineer the blogosphere because its forms and parameters and functions have helped define what a blogger can do, thus helping to define what blogging is. ever get lost in a subdivision? what, was that out of the hands of the engineers and planners? THINGS JUST HAPPEN Leonard says. JUST LET THEM HAPPEN. HE WILL FORCE YOU TO LET THEM HAPPEN.
I thought I was an incurious bastard at times. you take the cake Leonard, you really do.
Okay, let's recap. You concede my point ("street gangs don't subscribe to implied consent theory") then insert a red herring ("geographical"). I respond that the point (obviously) wasn't about all geographical delimitations of a gang's range, the point was about whether everybody within the geographical range participates in the selection ritual. You respond that a catchment area isn't about rights, which is true, except in this case, where the data-gathering exercise is specifically about rights, namely right of participation in the selection ritual. I think this is also fairly obvious, so assume that you're just trying ineffectually once again to play the down on my side of the field.
But your argument is really a dog, don't you think? I mean, it matters whether every individual within the territories ruled by the "Israel" gang gets to select its leaders or whether it's just "Israeli citizens." The two scenarios are going to come up with a pretty different distribution of resources. And that's really the only difference we're talking about. "Gang" just means that services in the hood are concentrated.
Your serve.
Uh, brother, it was you who inserted the geography. You used the term, and a catchment is an explicitly geographical concept: it has to do with the provision of some service within a defined territory. I think you've lost the thread of your argument on this one.
Dude, that's silly. Sure a catchment term is a specifically geographical concept. But that doesn't mean it's equivalent to all geographical concepts! A clinic with a catchment area of the Pittsburg metropolitan area does not have the same selection ritual as a gang infirmary serving all Nortenos in the Pittsburg metropolitan area. And, dare I say it, that may be a substantive distinction.
This is so totally obvious I presume youse just pretendin to be a doofus. But it's time for me to do some work.
Who said "it's equivalent to all geographical concepts"?
A clinic and a city have much less in common than a city and a street gang. The gang has a delineated territory, a governance structure, approximations of legal structures and elections, systems of taxation, accorded rights and privileges. True, they don't offer universal franchise, but neither did most democracies for most of their history. I think you're just being tendentious. No one is claiming there are no distinctions between an extortative violent gang and an advanced continental post-Republic; but there are intense, serious structural similarities that are worthy of note and instructive to considering the way state power operates.
Mr Fun, the question is not one of absolutes. It's not does blogger.com have any effect on the blogosphere. (It does.) The question is do they have a stronger effect (notice the "-er") on how the site blogger.com works, as versus the entire shape of the blogosphere.
Stop thinking in absolutes. It makes you look stupid. My post was about the meaning of a word. If you cannot discuss fine shadings of meanings, you can't add to that discussion.
I might also note that large parts of how bloggers act have little or nothing to do with blogger.com. Back in usenet, we did much the same stuff: endless arguments, often including the guy who knows what he's talking about (me, in this case), vs the snitty rock-thrower (you). In fact the design of blogger.com originally was away from that; it was web logging. Only gradually did they engineer in support for comments; before they did, people just worked around them to get them via outside sources. Thus, the "engineers" actually followed the people, not vice versa as you suggest.
Tendentious: well, yes. I knew misspelling Pittsburgh would bring you to brass tacks!
I guess my point is that to make your parallel work you need to abstract from precisely the social details that are meaningful. The issue to be resolved is whether states are simply a mechanism for extracting resources for a narrow coterie. And my answer is, "state-ness" or "anarchy-ness" may not ultimately have much to do with how resources are distributed.
That is a matter of the selection process--taking each "democratic" system on its own terms mind you--and like all communal norms will vary from place to place. It's not at all obvious to me that anarchy per se would make a good distribution more likely than state organization, though admittedly the baseline is quite low.
Okay, I wasn't lying about work. Last word, if you want. Cheers.
and what don't you understand about the words "large" and "majority" in my sentence? christ.
the larger point being: you can't say that "less state" is not in any meaningful way just as easily social engineering as is or would be "more state." to ignore the implications and ramifications of less state is half-assed. if you'd prefer that the coercion or influence in play in any human interaction remain within distinct communities or families (the inclusive 'or'), or within the patriarchy (lol), then just say so. don't deny that it exists, or try to minimize or subvert the importance of influence or coercion, just because it's outside the purview of the state. that's just retarded. one man's state is another man's Holy Roman Empire is another man's Barksdale Gang or whatever.
it's like Lenin said. . .
fucking ownership society my ass. own up to your convictions, their results and ramifications. how did we become a superpower?
Fledermaus, property is not theft IMO. Intellectual property, maybe so.
I can believe that primitive tribes can mostly do without third party enforcement of property. But there is still private property operating there, with personal enforcement. (Not to mention the commons, a form of public property, which is how many tribes view the land.) And in fact I would be extremely surprised if any tribe, anywhere, had zero third party enforcement. Even loose tribes have chiefs with some small power to judge. And all people have blood relatives who often intervene on their behalf when it comes to personal disputes.
As for anarchy, I believe that with sufficient institutional structure, anarchy can be stable. But this form has rarely existed, and it is beyond the imagination of most people. What most people call anarchy (where is there no government at all; I refer to this form as "mere anarchy"), they think is the only possible form of anarchy. And mere anarchy is quite clearly extremely unstable. People band together into gangs almost immediately (i.e., within days, if not hours) when it happens.
The huge problem with anarchocapitalism is that there is no obvious path to it from where we are. We can get to mere anarchy easily enough, but it sucks, and it does not evolve into complex anarchy; it re-evolves the state, and often in a much worse form.
you can't say that "less state" is not in any meaningful way just as easily social engineering as is or would be "more state."
WTF? I can't even unpack that. Is English your 19th language?
I CAN'T EVEN TELL IF I'M PARROTING INTELLECTUALS OR NOT.
Or, maybe some of us could try to stop coercing others, and try to stop supporting the coercion of others, and try to stop ourselves from being coerced by others, and then just see where that takes us.
Jail, I imagine.
I keep coming back to what I said in the last post on libertariansim.
I think that most people are pretty darn selfish, so most political "philosophies" are going to be based on selfishness. I know mine is.
The thing is, eventually your selfish desires are going to butt up against somebody else's selfish desires. For example, my desire to avoid dying in the gutter might conflict with your desire not to pay so damn much tax money for government housing.
How do we fix that conflict? Well, one way is to portray my selfish desires as being about life and death matters and yours as being essentially trivial.
This, to me, is the failure of libertarians; they mostly fail to address any human welfare issues that aren't directly related to the right of property ownership, even though people think those issues are important.
That's also where I take issue with the injunction to live without coercing others.
When I hear you say that, my question is, what's coercion? If I'm starving, is it coercion to steal food from you? If I'm starving, is it coercion for you to refuse to feed me?
as an engineer I'm likely predisposed to Leonard's position. . .because show me the problem, and I will take care of it. all this philosophizing and gamesmanship is why I became an engineer. and fwiw, the state is a lousy solution.
the argument that something needs to be done (by somebody! anybody!) really means nothing to me. I deal with crypto-pantheist regulators all damn day (lol - like when I'm not blogging). show me the problem and I can see what I can do. "just because it's not shown on the plans doesn't mean it's going to happen that way; that's not a problem because I say it's not a problem." - I've used that line before. the best plans still do not mean the idiots building it will build it correctly, or not cut corners. just because we're bereaved doesn't mean we're saps!
but yeah, if you're engineering a society, it'd be nice to critique the outcomes. (then again, try and show me how any society fits any model.) of course, if you only deal with specifics, you ignore the basis for any of your actions and their justifications. that is some unexamined shit right there, then.
I'm as much yelling at myself as I am Leonard.
"the best plans still do not mean the idiots building it will build it correctly, or not cut corners."
yeh sure...and as a builder I derive immense satisfaction pointing out to Owners the egregious errors and omissions and downright plain stupidity found in said plans that they paid a small fortune for. When we get the Change Order, we all sing: "Ca-ching!!!!!"
We're all greedy sluts, engineers included.
sweet! I love this country. and the Internet.
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