Everyone should go read Kerry Howely's posts on libertarianism & feminism. Kerry is being sly in the first post when she writes that "For some reason, various libertarian-leaning men are only capable of acknowledging the limiting nature of social norms when those norms result from recent political action." She calls the tendency "extremely weird," which is polite, because what she really means is that it is extremely stupid.
Male libertarians who denigrate the pervading social constraints on women and people of minority racial groups and people with less common sexual predilections--i.e., most male libertarians--do so because their ideology is grumpy and reactionary; it is forged of the same stuff as crybaby conservativism; its concerns with genuine liberty are purely tactical, and entirely personal. These scattershot beliefs, which consist principally of disliking taxes, regretting surveillance, and smoking weed hardly constitute a political identity at all. Sometimes they involve opposition to imperialism abroad; sometimes not. They're the reason libertarianism in general is routinely mocked as a kind of solipsism: it is! A guy like Radley Balko is the rare case who actually goes out of his way to consider the plight of minorities and impoverished people, especially as relates to the drug war, but many, many self-identified libertarians are in fact bourgeois white men firmly ensconced in a patriarchal heteronormative social order that they fundamentally do not wish to change. The seek to remove impediments to their petit bourgeois hedonisms , and they have the vague sense that if the government got its mitts out of business, everything would be fine.
I've largely stopped thinking of myself as a libertarian; obviously the drift of this blog has been toward blow-up-the-world-and-die-laughing anarchism. But a truly minarchical social order requires a revolutionary change far, far beyond that which most internet spouter-offers envision. It would require a deep, abiding alteration in almost every aspect of daily existence; it would require the complete dismantling of the current economic order; it would require redrawn political borders, disbanded militaries, the destruction of whole industries, the wholesale dislocation of huge populations. Even very particular policies that libertarians might seek to ameliorate represent immense alterations in our extant society. Freeing the majority of the 2 million prisoners in our penal system requires more than deciding to decriminalize marijuana. It requires a wholesale restructuring of our jurisprudential understanding, a change, from top to bottom, in the way that justice is delivered, from beat cops to DAs to judges to jury selection to the appeals process . . . and so on.
Feminism's challenge to our bedrock assumptions are to be embraced, not dismissed, by anyone actually dedicated to the radical change that such libertarianism envisions, but most soi-disant white male libertarians don't actually contemplate radical change. They contemplate the one part of their anatomy that once connected them directly to a member of the second sex.
Are we to think that a hypothetical future world in which there is absolutely no government and no coercion (as traditionally defined by libertarians) but in which most women choose to spend their days jobless, giggling, and stripping (without pay) in front of males to get their attention and approval is in some way unlibertarian? It may be offensive. It may be stupid. It certainly doesn’t sound feminist to me, and maybe it’s even a bad idea — but it’s free,says Todd Seavey, to whom Howley has been responding. To which one is tempted to reply that future hypothetical counterfactuals, or whatever, do not a counterargument make. This is libertarianism as practiced by Glenn Reynolds, full of joyous Barbarellas, nanobots, and manly men doing manly things, like shopping for gadgets and dreaming of meeker, more compliant chicks.
53 comments:
hey man, that's not fair. I so totally watched The Wire.
I saw Ms.Howley's second post earlier today and was like: right on. and this post definitely got me right between the eyes.
of course, as for my day job. . .I'm wedged firmly in the ass crack of the patriarchy. the only thing that separates a civil engineer from the army corps, really, I suppose, is a salute. I don't know whether to help dismantle it from within, or just let it be and move on to something else. can you dismantle something without causing a stir? some of the stuff that I hear on a daily basis, well, I've definitely said "don't listen to him, he's an asshole." it's like: she's not your kid sis, bro. she's got her PE, too. champ.
blogging is definitely the cure.
society is not the issue here dude
Are we to think that a hypothetical future world in which there is absolutely no government and no coercion (as traditionally defined by libertarians) but in which most libertarian males choose to spend their days chowing down on my massive man-tool (without pay, except maybe for me) to get my attention and approval, is in fact unlibertarian? It may be offensive. It may be stupid. Maybe it's even a bad idea -- but it's free.
I'll have to read Seavey, but it sounds as if what he doesn't get is that, whatever a hypothetical coercion-free future world may hold, we do not live in such a world now, and the burden of proof lies on those who want to claim that women go jobless, giggling and stripping now as a free, uncoerced choice.
I enjoy burkhas freely, and like to be forcibly reminded to wear one when I forget...
many, many self-identified libertarians are in fact bourgeois white men firmly ensconced in a patriarchal heteronormative social order that they fundamentally do not wish to change.
A number of internet "libertarians" are orthodox conservative Republicans who think that calling themselves libertarians makes them sound like daring freethinkers.
...And doing so gets them laid.
Ioz -
Your cynical "anarchism" tells those of us with less-limited perception that - like those deluded fools who subscribe to libertarianism, objectivism, catholicism, etc. - you have been deeply hurt.
You may find, as the unselfish, unconditional spirit of Aloha spreads through the Obama Nation, that eventually even persons like yourself will feel connected with their fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters, after all - and part of something bigger than themselves.
With best wishes for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,
Fannie Farmer (Mrs.)
Ahaha. That's awesome.
Dear Ioz,
It's obvious to anyone who reads your blog that you've suffered so much disappointment and agony and terrible terrible troubles that you've given yourself over to the dark spirit of anarchy.
But won't you walk into the light of Obama? Come, feel HIS healing presence. HIS wonderful warmth - the light and love that is Obama will fill your heart with warmth and light. I promise! Just walk into the light, Ioz.
Walk into the light.
blow-up-the-world-and-die-laughing anarchism
Oh, come on. Max Stirner? Really? I'm so disappointed.
Hank Hill: We of the Order of the Straight Arrow call upon the spirit Wematanye, protector of the sacred ground that brings us cool water to drink and energy-efficient clean-burning propane gas for all our sacred heating and cooking needs. Wematanye says, respect the earth! She's ours, by God, our taxes pay for Her. Also, it says here you gotta love all Her creatures. Let's see...oh, here we go: Though we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you're gonna recommend us to the spirit in the sky, with liberty and justice for all. Wematanye is with you, and with Texas. Amen.
many, many self-identified libertarians are in fact bourgeois white men firmly ensconced in a patriarchal heteronormative social order that they fundamentally do not wish to change.
That might be because many, many self-identified libertarians are not only bourgeois white men firmly ensconced in a patriarchal heteronormative social order, they are also BWMFEPHSOs who have led lives that are both very sheltered and very comfortable. They have no experience either of "others" or of misfortune. They therefore consider such a state to be, in a way, natural, and so to come about naturally; hence the superficial intellectual attraction of Libertarianism.
Many of them are also intelligent and well-educated, at least formally. All I can figure is that they lack imagination.
Dear Mr. Ioz -
I just started reading your super sweet blog (you can thank Glenn Greenwald for that) and I was just wondering if you are seriously an anarchist.
It just seems to me that you've had your share of the liberal culture, and have had access to lovely sources of education and knowledge. I can tell by the way that you use words and soforth. So why would you want to see the social order that created your smartness go down in flames?
Are you one of those people that just kinda hates people and therefore astutely observes how hypocritical and pathetic people tend to be?
If so, that's cool.
But c'mon... There isn't an itty bitty part of you that was all happy that Obama got elected?
Well, anyhow, you're on my firefox bookmark tab now, next to THE HUFFINGTON POST, so i'll be checking in every now and then. Please be sure to shock my progressive sensibilities with your raw unvarnished truth and your caution to the wind attitude.
Ciao!
Right on.
Hey, I resemble those remarks!
Mr. Seavey may have Stirner on his side:
"The State cannot give up the claim that its laws and ordinances are sacred. At this the individual ranks as the unholy (barbarian, natural man, "egoist") over against the State, exactly as he was once regarded by the Church; before the individual the State takes on the nimbus of a saint. Thus it issues a law against dueling. Two men who are both at one in this, that they are willing to stake their life for a cause (no matter what), are not to be allowed this, because the State will not have it: it imposes a penalty on it. Where is the liberty of self-determination then? It is at once quite another situation if, as e. g. in North America, society determines to let the duelists bear certain evil consequences of their act, e. g. withdrawal of the credit hitherto enjoyed. To refuse credit is everybody's affair, and, if a society wants to withdraw it for this or that reason, the man who is hit cannot therefore complain of encroachment on his liberty: the society is simply availing itself of its own liberty. That is no penalty for sin, no penalty for a crime. The duel is no crime there, but only an act against which the society adopts counter-measures, resolves on a defense. The State, on the contrary, stamps the duel as a crime, i.e. as an injury to its sacred law: it makes it a criminal case. The society leaves it to the individual's decision whether he will draw upon himself evil consequences and inconveniences by his mode of action, and hereby recognizes his free decision; the State behaves in exactly the reverse way, denying all right to the individual's decision and, instead, ascribing the sole right to its own decision, the law of the State, so that he who transgresses the State's commandment is looked upon as if he were acting against God's commandment -- a view which likewise was once maintained by the Church."
Like Balko, I do want to end the drug war being waged against the poor and minorities (though I only imbibe alcohol myself). My taxes pay for the cops and prisons, and a lot of real estate in a good location (in inner-cities) would be far more valuable if it were not the site of a low-level warzone. Rather than winding up in jail or cemeteries these people should be cogs in the machine of capitalism. There'd be far less call for immigration if this surplus labor force were not being diverted (some of them might go into the new legalized drug industry, but I expect Pfizer, Anheuser-Busch and Phillip Morris to run things a lot differently). There are plenty of other areas where I favor Kevin Carson's "left" policy prescriptions, but for entirely vulgar reasons.
Also, Seavey is right that feminism is not necessarily libertarian (modern feminism seems completely comfortable with the State shaping society to its preferred vision) but he seems to have a double standard in imagining that feminism must therefore contradict libertarianism. They're concerned with different issues, so one could easily be both a libertarian as well as a feminist or sexist chauvinist pig. It's a big tent because we're a small and dislikable enough group that we can't afford to be choosers rather than beggars (although a great many act like it anyway).
Oh, and I don't dislike surveillance. I welcome the Transparent Society. I want targeted advertisements that don't waste my time with shit I'd never consider buying. Right now my hotmail account is convinced I'm a woman so all the articles it suggests are just an annoyance. As silly as it sounds, I expect better from Microsoft.
There's a discussion going on at my blog about the government vs social pressure and how it relates to marriage. I would unambiguously plug it but I should warn readers that there's also the distraction of several commenters ragging on the village lefty as a synecdoche for his hated kind.
It's almost like these comfortable white guys are the heirs to a political tradition developed by comfortable white guys who fought a revolution for their personal freedom while enslaving Africans and stealing land from Indians.
The only one who I can think of that pictured a survillance society in the terms we are talking here seems to be Samuel Delany, in the novel Triton. In the environment of the Triton (moon of Neptune) colony, every thing is recorded, and you can view a random 10 minutes of the record at any time...from wikipedia "(it)supports one of several human societies independent from Earth, which has developed along radically libertarian lines in some ways: though a representative government exists, it has virtually no power to regulate private behavior, and citizens may choose to live in an area where no laws apply at all. Technology provides for a high degree of self-modification, so that one can change one's physical appearance, gender, sexual orientation, and even specific patterns of likes and dislikes."
U. K. LeGuin's 'anarchist' society in The Dispossessed is perhaps the most honest view of a anarchist (or anarcho-syndical) society.
And dear old R. A. Heinlein's novella "Coventry" is his most honest view of a 'anarchy': it turns into a shithole really fast.
...should be "an 'anarchy'"..it's early..
Great post, IOZ, but changing the social order through legislation (Fair Housing Act, Title IX, etc) does restrict liberty, though, doesn't it? And to be fair, this is largely the type of thing that modern feminism is associated with.
IOZ,
I am in your camp on this one and one reason I often resist telling people that I am a libertarian is the negative associations with the assholes you mention (obliquely).
I agree with Ms. Howley's complaint that social norms can be as (if not more) freedom denying as any law but aside from killing all the humans I don't really know how one addresses the issue without rule of law (as freedom-limiting as it is). Custom is not done away with from reasoned argument, it is evolved away over time or so inhibited by men with guns that it withers on the vine a bit more quickly.
One pattern I have discerned in the posts here is that the coherence of the argument varies inversely with the average word length -- when the logical chain is strained, you resort to vocabulary as a smokescreen.
While, yes, the Libertarian Party did arise from a group of economically-disgruntled Republicans in the 1970's, I can tell you from personal experience that in the 1970's and early 1980's the party was a heady and varied place. In San Diego, at least half of the activists were gay. Then the plague hit. And gay libertarians had more pressing issues -- quite understandably.
But is is a damn big leap to go from that priority shift to whining that the libertarian movement is "heteronormative". Which is also a stupid word.
Male libertarians who denigrate the pervading social constraints on [designated oppressed groups] do so because their ideology is grumpy and reactionary
No, they do it because their ideology is extremely specific in distinguishing between "social constraints" and physical force, particularly the force of law.
Of course, you're right that most libertarians are simpleminded, self-involved people secondhanding ideas they have not fully considered. But that's true of all ideological groups, not just libertarians.
Me, I've written off the words "free" and "freedom" to the left-liberals and statists. So y'all can go on all you want about how you are not "free" if some eevil white man lays down a heteropatriarcoblanconormative guilt trip on you. And I'll agree! We do that shit all the time!
But I'll fight for "liberty".
blow-up-the-world-and-die-laughing anarchism
So, I take it you're not a schemer...
A stupid word, oh no!
imagine that, upsetting libertarians on a blog. it's like the new mouse trap. LOL.
You know those kids who would hit you, yell "No punchbacks!" and then actually get mad when you hit them anyway? Well, libertarians are those kids grown up.
To take the most obvious example, there was slavery, and all that bad stuff, and then post-Reconstruction lynchings and of course the "social pressure" that encouraged all blacks to be out of town by sunset, and then segregation and Jim Crow, etc. etc., but man, the Voting Rights Act? That shit is INFRINGING OUR LIBERTY and MUST BE REPEALED.
On second thought, maybe "grown up" is the wrong phrase.
This is a really good post. But you've been on a roll lately.
You're writing off freedom, Leonard? The word itself? But you'll fight--oh yes, I'm sure you're fighting right now--for "liberty." Fuck, is that concept any more real?
Why do libertarians always seem like the guy who's ten minutes behind on the conversation? And they always think they're ten minutes ahead.
just whatsoever you do, do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT drive slow in the motherfucking fast lane. people please.
Jesus Christ, that Seavey post was hard to handle.
"We will be far freer once feminism, like all egalitarian, anti-freedom philosophies, is relegated to the ash heap of history. But if it triumphs, let all true libertarians at least go down fighting against it, like men."
Is this philosophy by numbers? Invoke Marxism to denounce an idea as wrong without even proving it wrong? And that "ash heap" grandstanding is pure rhetoric. It's like they made an intellectual philosophy and no intellectuals showed up.
I fucking hate that these are supposed to be the pro-freedom guys. You know, I can watch South Park and accuse liberals of being Stalinists too. Well, I couldn't bring myself to vote for Ron Paul, so maybe they do have something I don't.
I HAZ A ANARCHY
So I guess this idea that pressure from "the state" is somehow completely different from other social pressures is semi-widespread in libertarian thought?
Frankly, the idea strikes me as absurd. The state is merely a collection of people; it's the most powerful social group. Even if you smash it, you're still going to end up with some social groups being more powerful then others, given that most libertarians don't seem to care much for the idea of equality.
Somehow, when the most powerful social group is called the Stockgrowers Association, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, they have more of a right to oppress others then if they call themselves The Government?
I really, really don't get it. It seems to be an insistence that a rose by another name really does smell different.
Christopher,
while I agree with you and Kerry Howley that social groups have immense power to pressure individuals to act a certain way, surely you must see that there is a fundamental difference between the nature of a citizen's relationship with the state and with other social groups, mainly because of the state's monopoly over the legitimate use of force.
"there is a difference between a person's relationship with the state and with other social groups, because of the state's use of force."
/correction
Rabia, there's a difference, but it ain't fundamental. It's circumstantial, and prone to change. It's historically changed.
And what's more, I've got to dispense "legitimate." Legitimacy doesn't determine power; it's the other way around. But we all know that. If legitimacy meant power, then you'd admit social influence was as important as the use of violent coercion.
But there's a limit to the "use of force" argument, because if there was no social control, then it'd be impossible for the rulers to call on others to pull the trigger.
Coercion does not end with the state. Distinctions? Sure. Essential divides? Not in my view of things.
You know, there are a sizeable bloc of libertarians who think that virtue is important, and that the culture has a role in encouraging virtue. But the libertarian who believes in virtue recognizes that the government can't make people moral. A virtuous act and a virtuous life must be a free act and a free life. Granted, people have different ideas about what is and what is not virtuous, especially since the sixties. Feminism unfortunately, at least prominent strands of it, has gotten itself entangled in promoting the right to be promiscuous. Well, everybody may have the right to be promiscuous, but that doesn't make promiscuity morally right. Even if you think that traditional modesty and conservatism towards sexuality and the consequences associated with unrestrained sexuality (e.g. abortion, to name only one) is stupid and wrong, there is a logic to the traditional mores and social norms. The fact that some of us still respect those traditional mores doesn't make us any less libertarian.
Or anarchic, as the case may be.
It's also noteworthy that the father of anarchism is Zeno, who was also the father of stoicism. Stoicism, which advocated detachment from the pursuit of externals, did so for the sake of real and inner freedom. The notion of self-government starts with the individual's government of his own appetites and passions. The more people govern themselves, the less need (or perceived need) there will be for external government.
This doesn't mean that I think people should make a habit out of condemning the habits of others. Everyone should be allowed to pursue happiness in their own way. The traditional view is that sin is its own punishment, and we should tolerate others doing what they believe will make them happy, even if we think what they're doing is a mistake. But that doesn't mean that those of us who are revolted by, e.g., prostitution, must pretend that our revulsion is purely subjective. It doesn't mean that we should try to overcome our natural reluctance to marrying a woman who has been a prostitute, or that we shouldn't try to instill in our daughters values that are the direct opposite of prostitution-values.
Cüneyt, I didn't use the word "legitimate" in a moral sense, I meant it in more as acurrent description of the status quo. i.e. that the state is the only actor that has a monopoly of violence universally accepted by its citizens. And this definition, to me, means that the coercive powers of the state ARE fundamentally different to the coercive powers of any other group as long as the state is able to maintain its monopoly of violence.
I do see your point about power changing hands from the state to another group. A good example is in the case of the northern areas of Pakistan where the Taliban is basically creating an alternative to the state. But that is a situation in which a group is competing with the state's monopoly of violence. But once the Taliban take over that part of the world, they will be the state.
I have some ideas for scrapping the whole system and starting over. They are crazy, but less crazy than most such ideas (which is not saying much).
http://seasteading.org/
cb, libertarians reject collective responsibility and inherited guilt. That's for those awful nationalists that are always killing each other. And the most hard-core libertarians (which sometimes call themselves "voluntaryists" or "agorists") reject voting period. It's really the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that tends to get their goat. Barry Goldwater voted against it (but nots the CRAs of 1957 and 1960) even though he had personally integrated his family's stores, ordered the integration of the Arizona national guard before Truman integrated the army and been a member of the NAACP because he didn't think the government should be able to tell people how to run their own private businesses. If you actually believe in the value of democracy (which I don't except as preferrable to outright civil war) there are of course different reasons to be averse to the Voting Rights Act.
Very true. And that's why I said that, while your point is valid, it's not absolute. The state changes hands and personnel regularly. It is fluid. And what's more, it is influenced by other power groups that do not directly threaten the use of power. You are right to make a distinction between the implement and its wielder, but take into consideration the whole of the state's relationships.
You speak accurately; I just don't want us to lose sight of the fact that influence does exist, and it is as powerful as the ultimate power structure, that of the state, for it affects the state as well as the individual. We can't just hand-wave influence off as some lefty obsession and castigate the state for its weaponry while we ignore the domination of home, hearth, and hamlet. Social pressures exist, too. They are very real. And as Ms. Howley observed:
"Thus, a black man who cannot hold employment by law is unfree, but a black man who cannot hold employment because social custom is such that no one will hire him is as free as any white man. A gay couple who must stay closeted to avoid social ostracism is as free as any hetero couple. A woman who has to choose between purdah and exile from her village is basically living in a libertarian paradise, so long as no one writes the rules down."
Her observations are not so speculative. Power, my friends, is everywhere. That's part of what makes political criticism so damn hard.
Razib has a post on the difference between the fate of natives and slaves in colonial America here. Razib is the man and you should read everything he writes.
Oh, and I meant to respond to Rabia. I didn't know there'd be such a rush.
OMG. WORDS FAIL. IS THIS YOUR HOMEWORK, LARRY?
Much love.
Oh. OK dude. So, like, your saying, revaluation of all values. So, like, dude, we'll all be effing dead by then.
so the old saw that "a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged" we can add "and a libertarian is a conservative who likes his weed and his porn." But not so much his reproductive rights -- I use "his" advisedly here.
cb, libertarians reject collective responsibility and inherited guilt.
I'm well aware of that. Hence my analogy about the "no punchbacks" kid. I find it hilarious the amount of outrage libertarians can muster against the "violence" done to them by the Civil Rights Act, taxes, public schools, etc., while when it comes to actual lynchings, rape, and campaigns of violence and intimidation that happened in the not-so-distant past, they shrug their shoulders and say: "Hey, wasn't me. What's the big deal?"
I also followed your Voting Rights Act link and don't see the relevance. Politicians like to gerrymander districts, so that means poll taxes are okay and "social pressure" in the form of armed thugs at polling stations is acceptable? You're gonna have to explain that one a little more thoroughly.
The propensity of people like IOZ to simply lie about what libertarianism is or what libertarians "really want" is duly noted - it would be nice if this kind of thing would put paid to the idiots who still believe, pathetically, in a leftist-libertarian Popular Front of some kind (guess who gets to play Andres Nin"), but, of course, it won't, since your activist libertarian types desperately want to be accepted by somebody, anybody.
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