Friday, January 30, 2009

The Occasional, If Regrettably Necessary, Restatement of Principles

I am not a liberal. This is not a liberal blog. Please don't harbor illusions that underneath my writerly contempt for Democratic politicians there is some softness for so-called progressive ideas.

I am not interested in fixing American. The idea that it can be fixed proceeds from false premises. It rests on mythic assumptions about the noble experiment in self-government. Even at its most harshly critical, it assumes as true that America is, was, or can be "a force for good in the world." I am not interested in providing would-be activists with an intellectual framework through which they can . . . activate more successfully, efficiently, effectually, intelligently. I'm interested in America as a biologist is interested in the living things he studies. That's not a flawless metaphor--it suggests Jonah taking cell samples from within the giant fish, but there it is, nonetheless.

You may believe that through participation in the political process, you can ameliorate some condition of life in this country or world that you consider regrettable or unjust. Or, you may believe that through some action outside of the official political arena--protest or revolution or what have you--that you can do the same. That's fine, but it's presumptuous. What makes you think you'll do any better? I am interested in the brutal absurdity of our condition, but unlike the existentialists, I've got a sense of humor about it. Life is short, but inevitable. Look, I'm here. Can't help it. Might as well have a laugh at the expense of the powerful. They can afford it.

109 comments:

Dear Leader said...

I think it was either Tolstoy or Tears for Fears who said, "“Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.” I think of that more and more these days.

And in light of your recent posting on squishy totalitarianism, let me just say unequivocally the only form of government I can support in both good conscience and deed is a total dictatorship controlled by me.

Christopher M. said...

Really, dude, I'm not sure why you bother with drama like this. You're an anarchist, yes, I get it. As an anarchist, you either don't recognize or don't care about whatever marginal progress liberals manage to achieve through various forms of political engagement, and liberals, being liberal, either don't recognize or don't care about the structural nature of oppression and state control that remains constant no matter how many liberals they put in office. There's no real communication taking place here; you don't need to periodically restate your principles because the portion of your readership for which you're restating them is never going to comprehend them, anymore than a jellyfish could understand the rules of cricket were you capable of explaining them to one.

IOZ said...

I'm still waiting for some nice jellyfish to explain the rules of cricket to me.

A Squirrel said...

That is probably your best and most concise restatement of principles.

The energy people expend pretending things can, or could, make sense is mind-blowing.

SteveB said...

I guess I'm the jellyfish Christopher is referring to, but if you're going to link approvingly to a blogger who says "your participation is meaningless," then it seems to me that you're going beyond saying "Don't count on my help in your project to improve the world" to saying "Your project to improve the world is impossible." If you don't want an argument, then stay off my turf, man.

The idea that it can be fixed proceeds from false premises. It rests on mythic assumptions about the noble experiment in self-government. Even at its most harshly critical, it assumes as true that America is, was, or can be "a force for good in the world."

Actually, I want to "fix" America in the same way that you'd have a dog fixed. That is, neuter it so it isn't a force for anything in the world.

stillnotking said...

Yeah, but what should we do, IOZ? What should we [i]dooooooo[/i]?

bill said...

Yeah, IOZ? With great insight and culinary skills comes great responsibility.

Montag said...

i changed my underpants this morning. nobody can tell me that's meaningless.

bill said...

Montag -- surely it's not meaningless to your loved ones. Who are undoubtedly legion.

IOZ said...

Your project to improve the world is impossible.

Also, I do believe this is my turf. So, you know, uh, get off my lawn.

Anonymous said...

George Carlin: "If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem."

SteveB said...

Once you've loudly announced that you're going to do fuck-all to bring about change, I don't see how you or your followers get a vote in what gets counted as change.

By my standards, LibDems have set the "change" bar at a shockingly low level, but here's the thing: There are more people like them than there are people like me. I feel like that should count for something.

romerocker said...

So what I'm hearing is that you're a liberal gayz who likes to cook. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. Now how do jellyfish play cricket?

Anonymous said...

Once you've loudly announced that you're going to do fuck-all to bring about change, I don't see how you or your followers get a vote in what gets counted as change.


hehe, this is funny. quit while you are not completely underwater.

Anonymous said...

The IOZ Bureau of Redundancy Department, that's either existentialism or Mandelbrot illusion.

alexi de sadesky said...

Why is this steve b guy trying to save the world again?
Steve heres a special edition foodie friday for ya: dry out some papaver somniferum, crush em up, pop em in your tea. then add a dash of dimethyltryptamine, a drip of honey and voila! After a cup of this your grotesque thoughts on the spirit of our times will be culled and we can get on with our lives.

IOZ said...

Haha. You kids and your "Spirit Molecule" and your cellular mobile telephones and your The World Wide Web. Oh, boy.

Pierce the veil, motherfuckers.

bill said...

Is any of IOZ's charming insouciance in the face of evil attributable to his obviously rather privileged role in our collective tragedy? Maybe all the steelworker ass and fresh herbs on offer in Steel Town have drug our bumptious boy into the Slough of EHH? Maybe he just needs some Hard Knox to get right back to fighting the good fight? And what's w/ the Spirit Molecule?

NutellaonToast said...

What I don't get about you, and everyone else who holds dogmatic views about what can and can't be done, is why you think everything is all or nothing.

Yea, I'm not going to end all evil, but I don't have any pretense that I will. I hope to end some. I'm still laughing too, only at you and you're hopelessness disguised as "acceptance" or "realism" or whatever.

The reason the world sucks is because a lot of people suck and a lot of people don't care. Count yourself in the later, IOZ, if it makes you feel sublime. That doesn't mean you're not being a dick by inaction.

Mocking the overinflated egos is one thing, but mocking the entire concept of doing good is kind of bullshit. That's basically Objectivism minus the self-righteousness.

HAHA, I love the Firefox says that "Objectivism" isn't a word.

Anonymous said...

Mandelbrot? Aren't those sorta like biscotti? I'm partial to the poppyseed hamantaschen myself.

IOZ said...

Haha let's make fun of him for misusing apostrophes!

What I don't get about you, and everyone else who holds dogmatic views about what can and can't be done, is why you think everything is all or nothing.

Why that is the finest stretch of nonsense I've seen in a hot minute. Take note, the rest of you slackers.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I wish to contribute something meaningful to the world, it's just, I'm too busy becoming the change I have been being to become! so I blog. all damn day. this becoming the change I've been being to become business is exhausting, even just sitting here. blogging is about all I can do.

this is a blog, so let's not confuse this for doing anything at all. the good little crypto-catalysts that get caught up here might think, "this is trap! I must not be foiled or distracted by this Monsieur IOZ creature, surely he is not helper!" and yet, here we are. what exactly are we doing? we're arguing!! on the Internet!!! how you liken this to change or progress is quite an intellectual feat. maybe there should be a blogging Olympics? I can't help thinking that it would be the sort of Olympics where everyone leaves with a medal.

BLAWG!!!1!

Mr.Fundamental said...

What I don't get about you, and everyone else who holds dogmatic views about what can and can't be done, is why you think everything is all or nothing.

I guess what I'm waiting for is some evidence that something has changed. like, as a crypto-catalyst, shouldn't you be pointing out all the good stuff that has been going on? is that Monsieur's job? to prove his vision is incomplete? well, duh. NO. that shit's implied, yo.

who's the nihilist around here?

wait, what day is today?

Anonymous said...

So, anyway, give us a good book to read.

NutellaonToast said...

Why that is the finest stretch of nonsense I've seen in a hot minute. Take note, the rest of you slackers.OK, so where am I wrong? You seem to attack any kind of being involved. What do you do to make the world a better place, other than fuck people in the butt who want to be fucked in the butt?

cb said...

writes entertainingly, creates a unique perspective on American politics, and every so often gets bigots riled up, to everyone's amusement. What else do you expect?

ShatteredMonocle said...

yeah really, get off the guys ass.

IOZ said...

Or on it, depending on your stats.

Anonymous said...

That's what he said.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I hope he has someplace he can go.

Anonymous said...

Fine, you don't like America, IOZ. What about Poland?

bill said...

Nutrellaon's charge that IOZ is failing in some duty to make the world better seems a bit overwrought. Why should IOZ undertake such a charge? He has, as have we all, a perfect right to express disdain and wallow in hopelessness. Why not? The odds that anything he (or any of us) does will have the slightest chance of righting the evil state of things to any appreciable degree are astronomical, and he (like us) has only his own allotted span of years w/ which to work; why should anyone presume to criticize how he spends them?

Crusader AXE said...

IOZ is neither liberal, conservative, anarchist or platypus. Not unlike the Stig on Top Gear, some say he gets liquid by sucking the moisture from ducks; others, that he is terrified of ducks. Actually, he enjoys duck and feeds ducks. And, the world continues anon...

IOZ is a gadfly. For all we know, his gay persona hides a Cistercian Nun in Montreal who is sending us subliminal messages via the interweb to become converts to Messianic Catholicism.

IOZ is not a defeatist because he appears never to have been confused that we can make things better nor does he invest his time in trying. He does what he does, well I suspect, out of a sense balance; more for aesthetic reasons than anything else.

SteveB said...

I guess what I'm waiting for is some evidence that something has changed.

OK, I'll play along:

Here's some legislation that makes it easier for women to sue their employers for sex discrimination.

Here's a change in Medicaid eligibility rules that would open the program up to millions of unemployed people who don't currently receive Medicaid.

Your turn.

Anonymous said...

Don't bother, Steve, Mr. Fun will just disappear in a cloud of Lebowskisms after he's exhausted his repertoire of autistic ramblings.

Anonymous said...

'but unlike the existentialists, I've got a sense of humor'

Hey, Nietzsche seems to have a good sense of humor

mextremist said...

Not until the last liberal is strung with the guts of the last conservative will (US)America be free...

Anonymous said...

Hey, NutsackonToast, does your ass still hurt from the severe kicking it got in that thread where you claimed all Muslims were equally devoted to erasing the Jooz from the face of the earth?

Inkberrow said...

Fair enough. Just so long as IOZ remembers that jaded aesthetes, as opposed to "legitimate" anarchists and existentialists, by definition need---crave---the labels, symbols, and concepts which inspire their reflexively contrarian poses. "Derisive" and "derivative" cover much the same ground in this connection, along with "decadent".

Wasn't Andy Warhol from Pittsburgh as well?

SteveB said...

Nutrellaon's charge that IOZ is failing in some duty to make the world better seems a bit overwrought. Why should IOZ undertake such a charge? He has, as have we all, a perfect right to express disdain and wallow in hopelessness.

Yeah, I get that. Ioz Is Not Helping. Got it. But here's a couple of things I don't understand:

1) Why is it so important to IOZ, and so many of those commenting here, to piss in the soup of those of us who do want to do something to change the world, even in a small way? Chacun à son goût, as they say. You enjoy your roast chicken and I'll try to organize a union at my workplace. Deal?

2) Why is it necessary to maintain, as Ioz does, that improving the world is actually impossible? Isn't the world a different place than it was 20 years ago? How did that happen? The question isn't whether we can "change the world", but whether we can steer the change that's already happening in a better direction. I don't see how any intelligent person can look at history and believe what Ioz is saying.

Anonymous said...

The question isn't whether we can "change the world", but whether we can steer the change that's already happening in a better direction.

to borrow a line from the kiddies: LOL! i am sure you know just the direction too, don't you? you son are colorblind.

Anonymous said...

You enjoy your roast chicken and I'll try to organize a union at my workplace. Deal?

hehehehe. colorblind. that is all.

A Squirrel said...

It seems a many define "nihilism" as "not wanting to change the world".

Jesus. Fuck your lover. Love your kids. Whatever, all that shit. There's more to life than ritual participation in a retarded system. To paraphrase Sartwell, most people can't be educated.

Why is it so important to IOZ, and so many of those commenting here, to piss in the soup of those of us who do want to do something to change the world, even in a small way?

I dunno...it's fun? Nothing personal - it's just a good read. We ain't the ones that are gonna stop you when you try.

A Squirrel said...

...I'll try to organize a union at my workplace.

And good luck. I hope you make a few bucks. Seriously. But I must have missed all the anti-union posts. What do you want, the readership here to come picket with you? Positive energy beams?

Anonymous said...

fuck this. i did not watch my buddies die facedown in the muck so that this little strumpet can sit here and blog all day.

Anonymous said...

SteveB--

I'm on your side on the merits of the issue, but it's cridiculous to argue with IOZ about it. I come here to read his stuff because it's extremely funny and most of his criticisms are accurate and if he wants to pose and posture from his privileged vantage point about the uselessness of doing anything in the political realm (or anywhere? I'm not sure), well, let him. It's part of his schtick. It doesn't seem likely that you're going to change his mind.

Not, btw, that my own efforts to improve the world have done that much, but I think there are a few people who've had more success--obvious ones like MLK and the whole civil rights movement come to mind. But I won't argue that here--I'd probably lose.

Donald Johnson

Anonymous said...

Um, ridiculous, not cridiculous. The "c" is a fossilized remnant of the "completely" that I thought I had deleted.

AlanSmithee said...

Isn't the world a different place than it was 20 years ago?

You mean, are lackwit republicrat drool-cases still voting in murderous corporate-owned thugs while insisting that a new hopey-changey day has dawned in this the best of all possible worlds?

It all reminds me of something Yoko Ono once said to Malcom X in a little cafe in Vienna: "Oh the food's terrible, but the waiter's hilarious."

neal peart said...

Well put.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I can't bench my own weight but I can pedal my bike above threshhold for more than an hour. it hurts but it always feels good when I stop.

I don't see what the problem is. did someone piss on your rug? you can pee all over this place. I mean, just look at the mess I've left.

SteveB if you get a blog and make it good I might add it to my RSS feed reader. probably that won't happen though, judging by your politics. Sarwell is offering up an opportunity for you to erase, from your notes, the distinction between state and subject; it's what you've always wanted. and yet here you are, trotting out your useless arguments, silly legislation, and distinction.

get a clue ya putz. you have no idea what you mean.

J said...

Given what you've said here, IOZ, and I don't necessarily disagree, why don't you give more of your blogging time to literature, music, etc., rather than to the unedifying spectacle of our totalitarianism?

IOZ said...

In Re: the civil rights movement, let us recall that great African-American activist, Richard Pryor: White folk went out an got themselves some new niggas. The Vietnamese.

Rinse. Repeat.

Anonymous said...

It's increasingly clear to me that IOZ has never been knocked the fuck out.

SteveB said...

I must have missed all the anti-union posts.

When IOZ said "Your project to improve the world is impossible," what "project" did he think I had in mind? Some Digbyesqe "more better Democrats" program? It's not my fault if some people's conception of the American Left ends at Daily Kos.

What do you want, the readership here to come picket with you? Positive energy beams?

Look, this discussion didn't start with me coming here to recruit for Union Summer. It started with IOZ sticking his nose in my business, by telling me that what I was trying to do is impossible.

Social change isn't your game? Fine. Then how about not offering up ridiculous, easily-refuted opinions on the subject?

Oh, and if Mr. Fundamental is still paying attention, here's an expansion of the SCHIP program to provide health coverage to 4 million uninsured children.

SteveB said...

Donald Johnson:
Yeah, I understand as well as anyone that this site is an elaborate piece of performance art, and arguing with IOZ makes as much sense as arguing with Stephen Colbert.

It's just that, every once in a while, the guy breaks character and seems to want us to take him seriously. And I think "seriously" means telling someone when you think they're wrong. When that happens, the regulars here all run back and hide behind: "Hey, what's the big deal? We're just here for the laffs!"

If IOZ would stay in character and be completely ridiculous all the time, we wouldn't have these problems. But, more often than not, the guy actually makes sense, and then I get all confused. Maybe emoticons would help.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to hear more from Anon 9:15, please.

LA Confidential Pantload said...

IOZ,

Any of your prior posts draw this many comments? It's kinda depressing that a blawg statement on the efficacy (or lack thereof) of politics to effect social change would draw such a big response. I would think Foodie Friday is more worthy. Or at least buttseks.

Anonymous said...

Regarding Vietnam as a replacement for lynching--I think we could have done both. It would have been entirely within our character. When we saved fascist South Korea from commie North Korea in the 50's, we bombed the entire peninsula flat and according to Curtis LeMay, killed over a million people and all that time they were still practicing apartheid in the Aemrican South, so yeah, it is possible for us to bomb and chew gum and oppress people domestically simultaneously. But MLK took lynching off the list of respectable activities.

And SteveB--I understand the temptation to try and strike up a sincere conversation about improving things (look, I just sorta did it above), but it's a lost cause here. Enjoy the place for what it is.

Donald Johnson

Chris E. said...

SteveB, I sympathize with you. I'm a hopeless liberal myself. But your concept of "sticking his nose into my business" is totally fucked. What do you want IOZ to do, shut down the blog? Shield it from tender, impressionable young minds? Recant everything and pledge fealty to the Party of Moderate Progress Within the Limits of the Law? Your overdeveloped sense of personal affront is just going to get you mocked harder.

Christopher M. said...

I think I called this one in the second comment. Look, SteveB, it's obvious to you that America, at least, is a nicer place in which to live for a lot of people than it was, say, fifty years ago, and that this didn't happen just because the powers that be sat around bored as fuck on their asses and decided to start giving people voting rights and Medicare - it happened because a lot of other people worked for it. That said: IOZ doesn't care about (black people's) voting rights and (poor old people's) Medicare. The stuff he cares about are problems which are rather more intractable - the drug war, the prison state, the empire - because their victims are so marginalized and their beneficiaries are so enmeshed in the power structure of the state that there's jack shit that anybody in power is going to do about them.

Whatever conception you have of meaningful change, IOZ almost certainly doesn't share it, because he doesn't share your priorities, and because you don't share his (to IOZ, non-participation in the political process is a positive good for various, over-idealized reasons). Like a lot of people with fundamentally different priorities, you're interpreting each others' differing values as character traits: you see him as a self-indulgent cynic, and he sees you as a hopeless naif. But both of these rather miss the point. The jellyfish isn't stupid for failing to comprehend cricket: it's a jellyfish, it lives in the ocean, it doesn't have eyes or limbs, what would cricket mean to a jellyfish? Let it go.

SteveB said...

I'm a hopeless liberal myself.

Sorry, but I'm not. Liberal, that is. Or hopeless.

your concept of "sticking his nose into my business" is totally fucked.

People who are actually trying to make social change tend to have strong opinions on whether change is possible. What I don't get is why someone who claims to have absolutely no interest in the subject should bother to have any opinion at all, especially when the opinion he offers is completely insupportable. I'm not interested in football, so am I offering predictions on the outcome of the Superbowl? No, I am not.

Whatever conception you have of meaningful change, IOZ almost certainly doesn't share it.

Yes, I do understand that. And sorry to put so much weight on one quote, but the inscrutable IOZ doesn't give me much to work with:

Your project to improve the world is impossible.

If we're talking about my project, then don't my standards apply? Or is IOZ saying that my project won't achieve his goals?

Let it go.

That's excellent advice; I think I'll take it.

Mr.Fundamental said...

SteveB, if you're so smurt, can you explain to me how the housing crises is anything other than publicly funded housing gone awry? but but but. . .

The Promiscuous Reader said...

SteveB, Why is it so important to IOZ, and so many of those commenting here, to piss in the soup of those of us who do want to do something to change the world, even in a small way?

If it bothers you so much, why do you keep coming here to read it?

It started with IOZ sticking his nose in my business, by telling me that what I was trying to do is impossible.

What, you mean M'sieu flew up to Madison, barged into your home/office and told you that what you are trying to do is impossible? This reminds me of a dreadful joke about an old lady who called the police to report a man who was naked outside her window. When they arrived, they couldn't see anything. "But if you climb up on the toilet tank and really stretch out the window," she told them, "you can see him in his shower!"

That people hold different opinions than you do, even opinions you really hate, is not interfering in your business. Since you're not a liberal, though, this may not be a real problem.

AlanSmithee said...

And what about Scarecrow's brain?!?

Anonymous said...

I'm happy to tell you there is very little in this world that I believe in. Listening to the comedians who comment on political, social, and cultural issues, I notice most of their material reflects an underlying belief that somehow things were better once and that with just a little effort we could set them right again. They're looking for solutions, and rooting for particular results, and I think that necessarily limits the tone and substance of what they say. They're talented and funny people, but they're nothing more than cheerleaders attached to a specific, wished-for outcome.

I don't feel so confined. I frankly don't give a fuck how it all turns out in this country - or anywhere else, for that matter. I think the human game was up a long time ago (when the high priests and traders took over), and now we're just playing out the string. And that is, of course, precisely what I find so amusing: the slow circling of the drain by a once promising species, and the sappy, ever-more-desperate belief in this country that there is actually some sort of "American Dream," which has merely been msiplaced.

The decay and disintegration of this culture is astonishingly amusing if you are emotionally detached from it. I have always viewed it from a safe distance, knowing I don't belong; it doesn't include me, and it never has. No matter how you care to define it, I do not indentify with the local group. Planet, species, race, nation, state, religion, party, union, club, association, neighborhood, improvement committee;I have no interest in any of it. I love and treasure individuals as I meet them, I loathe and despise the groups they identify with and belong to.

So, if you read something in this book that sounds like advocacy of a particular political point of view, please reject the notion. My interest in "issues" is merely to point out how badly we're doing, not to suggest a way we might do better. Don't confuse me with those who cling to hope. I enjoy describing how things are, I have no interest in how they "ought to be." And I certainly have no interest in fixing them. I sincerely believe that if you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem. My motto: Fuck Hope!

P.S. Lest you wonder, personally, I am a joyful individual with a long, happy marriage and a close and loving family. My career has turned out better than I ever dreamed, and continues to expand. I am a pesonal optomist but skeptic about all else. What may sound to some like anger is really nothing more than sympathetic contempt. I view my species with a combination of wonder and pity, and I root for it's destruction. And please don't confuse my point of view with cynicism; the real cynics are the ones who tell you everything's gonna be all right.

P.P.S. By the way, if, by chance, you folks do manage to straighten things out and make everything better, I still don't wish to be included.

-George Carlin

Christopher M. said...

If we're talking about my project, then don't my standards apply? Or is IOZ saying that my project won't achieve his goals?

IOZ is not only talking about his goals, he doesn't recognize that any goals other than his could be meaningfully described as "social change." There's no communication going on here.

Anonymous said...

IOZ seems to think that he has principles. Fascinating.

Miss Devore said...

Life is short and so am I.

IOZ said...

I've never seen so much social change in once place.

Man, I sit on boards and give money to the library and buy from local farmers and always give bums a dime. Whaddarewegonnado?

In the meantime, LA Confidential, this is like catching carp at the Pymatuning Spillway, although I suppose I do understand why this blog might be the nec plus ultra for the please-externally-validate-my-self-satisfied-political-posturing set.

Change you can believe in.

Mr.Fundamental said...

pour me another, homie.

erin4iraq said...

SteveB: It is possible to break the IOZ addiction. Simply ask yourself-why do I care what IOZ thinks about anything?

SteveB said...

Sigh. I know I'm supposed to be taking Christopher M's advice to "let it go", but the deliberate obtuseness being displayed here by people who I know are not at all obtuse is really getting annoying.

I do understand why this blog might be the nec plus ultra for the please-externally-validate-my-self-satisfied-political-posturing set.

For the third time, I am not looking for validation. I'm not looking for your approval, nor am I trying to recruit people to the cause. You said something, and I disagreed with it. I then engaged in what might be called "argument" (you did not, by the way.)

Why do I practice this strange habit of reading blogs where I occasionally disagree with the host's point of view, and then intentionally attempt to engage him in argument right there in his own comment section? Obviously, I must be seeking someone's approval; why else would you bother to argue with someone you disagree with?

Montag said...

if 'x' is true, then 'z'.

IOZ: 'x' is true, ergo 'z'.

SteveB: your assertion, 'z', is a personal affront to me. if you are going to say 'z' about me, you must do so on my terms. my terms are 'x' is false.

IOZ: we could argue about 'x'.

SteveB: no. you said 'z', now take it back!

etc.

in other words, SteveB, "you're out of your element, Donny."

AlanSmithee said...

"...why else would you bother to argue with someone you disagree with?"

It annoy the fuck out of them until they get in a pwoggie-bloggie tizzy, then sit back and laugh at them. Why else?

Jim Yeager said...

The idea that it can be fixed proceeds from false premises

That depends on what you mean by "fixed." If you mean something like "restored to shining-city-on-hill status so that we can resume remaking the rest of the world in our image until we all have ponies," then yes, it can never be fixed.

But if you mean something like "just give us back the 'peace and prosperity' we had during the Bubba years when we gave less than a shit what happened to the rest of the world so long as we had our cheap gas, steady dead-end job incomes, and the same brainless consumerist indulgences we have now but without the nagging guilt"... well, that's within the realm of the possible. And deep down, that's the sort of "security" the bulk of Americans are truly after.

More than anything else, that's the sort of hope which made Obama president. "Change we can believe in" was just a snappy little pretext...

SteveB said...

IOZ: we could argue about 'x'.

Oh, if only.

Anonymous said...

during the Bubba years when we gave less than a shit what happened to the rest of the world

How many thousands of pounds of apathy did we drop on Bosnia?

Cüneyt said...

I'm not expecting you to systematize in the way others want, IOZ, and convert to some nonsense like liberalism or libertarianism or Marxism or this or that or the other.

And what I fear is that the desire for others to posit a system is the desire to reduce others to some kind of platform. I don't think everything has to be reduced to an -ism. But fuck, deconstructionists like you, even when they're very clever, as you seem to be, well, how do I say this? I guess that I'm just at a point in my life where I've found a respect for those nakedly pursuing power for its own sake, because, fuck, at least they seem to believe in something, you know? What's your trajectory? I'm probably missing the point. I don't want you to buy into this or that slogan or party. But I've always preferred your posts where you've stated your opinions and made, well, positive arguments.

Mr.Fundamental said...

no, you retards. it would be like NOT LOVING YOUR WIFE BECAUSE YOU FIND THE INSTITUTION OF MARRIAGE TO BE IMMORAL.

cripes. what is so hard to understand?

puppylander said...

everything you tell me hurts my brain.

G said...

In his post, Ioz didn't actually say positive change is impossible, just that if you have ideas to change the world: "that's fine, but it's presumptuous".

Which isn't quite the same thing.

Of course, then he went on to say in the comments "Your project to improve the world is impossible."

SteveB said...

Actually, the quote that got us started on this discussion included this:

...squishy totalitarianism absorbs dissent because it is a huge mound of goo: there's no real center: it's everywhere all the time: the only conceivable revolution would be to destroy...everything.
...

you still produce the signs of participation, but the systems are so gigantic and the consciousness so formed within them that your participation is meaningless.


So you can dissent, but your dissent is "absorbed" and is "meaningless." I'd say that "Your project to improve the world is impossible" is fairly accurate summary.

ino said...

This is starting to sound like commentary on the Talmud.

erin4iraq said...

G - So are you saying IOZ types out of both sides of his mouse?

Anonymous said...

Hey Steve, let me validate your martyr complex, since no one has actually addressed any affront to you yet despite your queeny shrieking to the contrary: Your project to improve the world is impossible and you are a moron for embarking on any such endeavor.

Allow me to quote another fiction that doesn't get nearly as much love around these parts as it should and is nearly as instructive to our times as Lebowski: There you go again McNulty, givin a fuck when it's not your turn.

Dunc said...

I guess that I'm just at a point in my life where I've found a respect for those nakedly pursuing power for its own sake, because, fuck, at least they seem to believe in something, you know?

And there you have the crux of the problem. I mean, I believe in stuff, but not the point that I'm prepared to fuck somebody else over because of it. Therefore, the people who care about stuff enough to fuck other people over for it win.

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

SteveB said...

Clearly, giving a fuck is the source of the problem, and should be avoided at all costs.

Mr.Fundamental said...

this, apparently, is what happens when you fuck a stranger in the ass.

if you're looking for a religion to preach to the masses, I don't think this is the place. though I do tend to do that on occasion, and rather badly. sucking at something can be fun.

we can't escape our convictions. we can however not be such fucking dicks about them. myself included. this is an awful, awful thread. at least Henley had a laugh about it.

I thought the quote ended, "passionate intention," but I could be mistaken.

Cüneyt said...

Dunc, how about if you passively benefit from a system inherently occupied with fucking over others? Is that different from actively fucking over others?

Of course, I'm dismissing your point unfairly, and there's something to be said for voluntarism and not being so authoritarian, but aggression and power are pretty essential, not only to "the system" or what have you, but to life.

Mr.Fundamental said...

some asshole on this blog once posited that blogging has done to politics what pacifism has done to the martial arts.

my hands are all tied up with this damn keyboard.

what's holding us back?

Cüneyt said...

Video games? Pot? The mortgage? Fear of social upheaval? Television? Fuck if I know. I figure that everyone else has a good reason to accept things the way they are and that I just lack the courage of my convictions.

SteveB said...

Not everyone's being "held back." Here's a college student who saved 22,000 acres of wilderness from oil drilling by posing as a bidder at a Bush administration land auction and "buying" the land out from under the oil companies. I think all the sales have since been nullified by President You-Know-Who.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I think this would be the appropriate time to bring up the concept of the anal jihad: our greatest internal struggle.

They want us to fight but we just wanna get high
Work all day all night tryin to get fly
When I get some money imma buy me some time
I can't fight your war until I'm finished with mine

And I could tell when you're mad at your past
Because you tend to take them turns just a little too fast
I could tell how you pushed your foot on the gas
That you already knew that you was gonna finish last
Slow it down and take a little time
To look up at them clouds with that fake silver lining
Up in a tree knowin damn well you'll never reach the top


sorry, I just can't help myself.

and, you see, if I type any more emPHAtically, I just risk breaking the damn thing.

if I could sear the agitating part of my brain with a hot poker, I would. but whataerwegonnado? I dunno, what's the problem? what isn't the problem?

I'm thinking that an appropriate response to the frustration of blawg! would be to buy a patch of land that fronts a major expressway, raze the site, and erect a giant sign facing traffic that reads: "TREAD LIGHTLY." permit pending.

Dunc said...

Dunc, how about if you passively benefit from a system inherently occupied with fucking over others? Is that different from actively fucking over others?

It's a more-or-less valid point - but what are the alternatives? I'm simply not prepared become one of the bastards actively doing the fucking-over, and I'm not about to kill myself over it or spend the rest of my live in a cave living off roots and insects. I didn't ask to be born into this particular socio-economic milieu, but I'm here now and there's really not a great deal I can do about it. All I can do is try to minimise my adverse impacts on other people.

And yes, I believe there is a difference between passively benefiting from a system and being actively involved in it.

SteveB said...

And yes, I believe there is a difference between passively benefiting from a system and being actively involved in it.

Sure, but there's another option: be actively involved in changing the system for the better. Which is where this discussion started out, actually.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I actively work and seek to destroy and subvert the system, any chance I get, but I realize that even that goal or direction is folly. it presumes too much about what is going on, my part in it, and what my impact is. yelling at the television always makes me feel better.

IOZ said...

90+ comments are Changing The System for the Better.

Cüneyt said...

Well, Dunc, if you'll allow me to take a single line of your response out of context and push it into a completely different discussion...

I didn't ask to be born into this particular socio-economic milieu, but I'm here now and there's really not a great deal I can do about it.

Then, by that rationale, there is one more reason for this crowd to disapprove of Barack Obama.

While George W. Bush merely perpetuated aristocracy, Obama expanded it! What do you think, sirs?

Mr.Fundamental said...

90+ comments are Changing The System for the Better

I don't see how the Defeatists will ever win.

SteveB said...

Can we get to 100? Yes we can!

Freiheit said...

Clearly, giving a fuck is the source of the problem, and should be avoided at all costs.

Rule #2: Liking anything is bad.

Dunc said...

Sure, but there's another option: be actively involved in changing the system for the better.

Look, I'm a fully paid-up member of two major human rights NGOs and a political party with elected representatives in the Scottish Parliament, I contribute to a number of charities, and I think several commenters here may have drastically misinterpreted my position.

I've no objection to doing good and worthwhile things on the grounds that they're good and worthwhile. I just don't have any confidence in my ability to forecast the long-term systemic consequences, and I'm somewhat sceptical about the whole concept of "changing the system from within" - in my experience, people who try that usually end up being far more changed themselves. As the Buddhists have it, you must take responsibility for your actions rather than trying to ensure specific outcomes, but I don't expect you to understand the distinction.

Well, Dunc, if you'll allow me to take a single line of your response out of context

It's not like I can stop you, is it? You're perfectly welcome to interpret, re-interpret, decontextualise, fold, spindle, or mutilate my remarks in any way you like. (This is a perfect illustration of the point I'm trying to make above.)

Cüneyt said...

As far as actions and outcomes and the fog that shrouds so many long-term concerns, Dunc: I get what you're saying, and wholeheartedly agree.

Dunc said...

Fuck me, there's something you don't hear every day... ;)

hv said...

IOZ says:

It rests on .

This is a very important point and insight that needs to be repeatedly emphasized.

The Enlightenment belief that people and states can be trusted to behave in a moral, rational manner if only people could choose their own leaders has proven to be a spectacular failure.

And yet, liberal nationalists and good pwoggies continue to indulge in the fantasy notion that the underlying institution is pristine and all they need is better leaders, i.e., more and better Democrats. This is not only spectacularly naive, it is deeply dangerous and counter-productive because it sustains the status-quo and prevents the emergence of a real consciousness and awareness of the need for a real change.

The collapse of the Catholic power-structure and of religious tyranny in Europe is a good analogy. It took centuries but people finally came to the conclusion that investing the Catholic church and other religious power-structures with that much power over people would inevitably lead to vicious abuses of power by the Catholic church and by religious institutions. It didn't matter how wonderful the teachings of Jesus may or may not have been, and it didn't matter how wonderful an individual Pope/religious leaders may be or not be, just like it doesn't matter how wonderful the American constitution in theory may or may not be, or how wonderful and well-meaning some American leaders may or may not be: the fundamental point is that human beings are deeply flawed, violent and corrupt, and they will inevitably abuse the power of an institution and state to dominate and subjugate other humans.

I'm not sure what the "solution" is, but I know it isn't to continue to have blind faith in the violent, murderous, sociopathic institution of the modern Western, techno-cratic war-machine of an imperial state, regardless of how lofty its founding principles are, and regardless of how well-meaning one or two of its leaders may be.

Sometimes, lack of faith in an institution isn't "cynical" but a rational choice based on reason and evidence and based on examining a long and bloody and violent track-record. Just like with the Catholic church and with the hold religious power-structures had upon people once a time, it wasn't until people grew fed up of the constant abuses of power by religious hierarchy and broke free of the hold those religious institutions had on them that the cycle of violence, tyranny and abuse by the Catholic church ended.

It is going to take the same kind of raising of consciousness and breaking free of the hold of the fallacious "mythic assumptions about the noble experiment in self-government", regardless of the evidence and track-record, for a similar positive development in human affairs.

hv said...

Hmm.. sorry.. seems the quote I had at the beginning of my post didn't post correctly. Here is the quote again:

IOZ says:

I am not interested in fixing American[sic]. The idea that it can be fixed proceeds from false premises. It rests on mythic assumptions about the noble experiment in self-government.

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