Thursday, February 19, 2009

I Will Fight No More Forever

It cannot be emphasized enough that those who are arguing against criminal investigations for Bush officials are -- whether consciously or implicitly -- arguing that the U.S., alone in the world, is exempt from the laws and principles which we've been advocating and imposing on other countries for decades. There is simply no way to argue that our leaders should be immunized from criminal investigations for torture and other war crimes without believing that (a) the U.S. is and should be immune from the principles we've long demanded other nations obey and (b) we are free to ignore our treaty obligations any time it suits us.

It's just as simple as that: one must embrace both of those premises in order to argue for a bar against criminal investigations.


-Glenn Greenwald

Well, Mr. President, I would say that General Ripper has already invalidated that policy.

-Air Force General Buck Turgidson
God Bless You, Professor Chomsky. I think it's fair to say that both (a) and (b) from Glenn's above-quoted post have long been US policy, premises. Just ask these picturesque Lakota Sioux!



I mean, yes: it is the practice and de facto policy of the United States to impose obligations on others by which terms of mutuality the US itself does not abide. This is not new, and it will persist until America's power relative to other nations decreases sufficiently to make treaty obligations . . . obligatory. Well on our way, one hopes.

It is, however, worth remembering that this nation, these United States, was created by the most successfully prosecuted series of genocides in history, against which the Turks or Germans appear as mere amateurs, despite the bigger numbers. Our forefathers didn't attempt to eradicate one people or one nation from the Earth; they did eradicate many nations and many peoples from the Earth, from one end of a continent to the other. So let us not wring our hands too long over our traduced values and traditions. Ever thus to deadbeats.

118 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is why I read this blog.

TGGP said...

To be fair, the bulk of the deaths were unintentionally caused by English fishermen, which is why Plymouth was fairly depopulated when the pilgrims arrived and the Mound-Building People disappeared without every coming in contact with palefaces.

IOZ said...

I was talking about post-Revolutionary western expansion. I think that we can take earlier plague depopulation as a given, even if I do think that Charles Mann may have somewhat overstated his case.

Anonymous said...

Our forefathers didn't attempt to eradicate one people or one nation from the Earth; they did eradicate many nations and many peoples from the Earth, from one end of a continent to the other.

Can you humor me and tell me who you mean? I'm not saying we didn't---I just don't know who you mean since you say for the "creation" of this country. I thought we only killed off the Indians. You mean there were others and who were the "nations"?

Anonymous said...

You mean there were others and who were the "nations"?

facetious?

IOZ said...

I don't think it was facetious, 2nd anonymous. I believe we have a jen-you-wine case of Theyalllookthesametomeitis.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 2:52 pm is why I read this blog.

-COT

Anonymous said...

Do not treat the entity of the united states, nor of other countries, as a discrete actor. Also, if you have access to it (via jstor etc.) read Anderson and McChesney - Raid or Trade? Good look at western expansion models.

IOZ said...

I've known some discreet actors in my time, but you can usually figure it out by keeping your eyes on the hips.

wavydavy said...

OK, fine, they all look the same to me, too. (Thought I would pre-empt the snark.)

I absolutely 100% agree with you that the USofA carried out the most successful genocide in recorded history against the Native Americans.

But, seriously -- who are these "many nations and many peoples" who were "eradicated"? Prior to the arrival of the white man, I was not aware that there were ANY other peoples here besides the Native Americans.

I would greatly appreciate some snark-free enlightenment. Really.

LA Confidential Pantload said...

Yes, wavydavy, even as all white men are part of one White Nation, so are/were all Native Americans part of one Native American Nation! You can look it up! All that Navajo and Apache and Lenape and Creek and shit - they was just funnin' ya!

paul from the clue-by-four said...

Fill in the blanks:

They took the whole Indian ________
Locked us on this reservation
Though I wear a shirt and tie
I’m still part redman deep inside

Cherokee ______, Cherokee tribe
So proud to live, so proud to die


What is this "snarkfree" of which you speak?

Gen. Jack D. Ripper said...

The Founding Fathers well understood that no foe, near or far, must be allowed to steal our precious bodily fluids. Occationally through our history some have come close, and the leaders of the day quickly recognized the threat, and smote them. Today is no different.

Anonymous said...

"But, seriously -- who are these "many nations and many peoples" who were "eradicated"? Prior to the arrival of the white man, I was not aware that there were ANY other peoples here besides the Native Americans."

ugh, baudrillard, you were right. you magnificent bastard, i read your confusing book. i have lost all ability to differentiate between sarcasm, snark, and earnestness (and the various sub-levels thereof). the internets are a confusing place.

for reals wavydavy, if you truly do not understand this many brown man idea...check out the life stories of andrew jackson or william henry harrison. those dudes knew the many brown idea well.

Alaya said...

God DAMN. This is some comment thread you got here, IOZ.

But great post. I'm starting to think all discussions of our nation's great founding principles should come with an asterisk of GENOCIDAL RACIST HYPOCRISY.

cb said...

"But, seriously -- who are these "many nations and many peoples" who were "eradicated"?

List of North American Indian tribes (via wikipedia):
* Aleut
* Inuit
o Inuvialuit
o Inupiat
* Yupik
* Ahtna (Ahtena, Nabesna)
* Anishinaabe
o Oji-Cree (Anishinini, Severn Ojibwa)
o Ojibwa (Chippewa, Ojibwe)
* Atikamekw
* Bearlake
* Chipewyan
* Cree
* Dakelh
o Babine
o Wet'suwet'en
* Deg Hit’an (Deg Xinag, Degexit’an, Kaiyuhkhotana)
* Dena’ina (Dialects: Outer Inlet, Upper Inlet, Iliama, Inland, Kachemak Bay, Kenai, Susitna River)
* Dogrib
* Dunneza (Beaver)
* Gwich'in (Kutchin, Loucheaux)
* Hän
* Hare
* Holikachuk
* Innu
* Kaska (Nahane)
* Kolchan (Upper Kuskokwim)
* Koyukon
* Mountain
* Naskapi
* Sekani
* Slavey (Dialects: Hay River, Simpson Providence, Liard, Fort Nelson)
* Tagish
* Tahltan
* Lower Tanana
* Middle Tanana
* Upper Tanana
* Tanacross
* Tasttine (Beaver)
* Inland Tlingit
* Tsetsaut (extinct)
* Tsilhqot'in (Chilcotin)
* Northern Tutchone
* Southern Tutchone
* Yellowknives
* Achomawi (Pit River Indians)
* Antoniaño
* Atsugewi
* Bear River
* Cahuilla
* Campo
* Chemehuevi
* Chukchansi
* Chumash (Dialects: Roseño, Purisimeño, Barbareño, Inezeño, Ventureño, Obispeño, Santa Paula, Cruzeño, Emigdiano Allilik)
* Chilula
* Chimariko
* Coast Miwok
* Costanoan - see Ohlone
* Cupeño
* Diegueño - see Kumeyaay
* Esselen
* Fernandeño - see Tataviam
* Gabrieliño - see Tongva
* Giamina
* Huchnom
* Hupa
* Ipai - see Kumeyaay
* Jamul
* Juaneño
* Kamia
* Karok
* Kato
* Kiliwa
* Kitanemuk
* Klamath
* Konkow - see Maidu
* Konomihu
* Kumeyaay (Diegueño)
* Lake Miwok
* Lassik
* Luiseño
* Maidu
* Mattole
* Mesa Grande
* Migueleño
* Mission Indians
* Miwok (Me-wuk)
* Modoc
* Mohave
* Monache
* Nakipa
* Nisenan
* Nomlaki
* Nongatl
* Ohlone (Divisions: Karkin, Ramaytush, Chochenyo, Tamyen, Awaswas, Chalon, Mutsun, Rumsen)
* Okwanuchu
* Paipai (Akwa'ala)
* Paiute (Northern, Southern)
* Patwin
* Pit River - see Achomawi
* Pomo
* Rumsen - see Ohlone
* Salinan
* San Clemente
* San Nicolas
* Santa Catalina
* Serrano
* Shasta
* Sierra Miwok
* Sinkyone
* Suisunes
* Tache
* Tachi tribe
* Tataviam (Fernandeño)
* Tipai - see Kumeyaay
* Tolowa
* Tongva (Gabrieliño)
* Tsnungwe
* Tubatulabal
* Wai-lakki
* Wappo
* Washoe
* Whilkut
* Wintu
* Wintun
* Wiyot
* Valley Miwok
* Yahi
* Yelamu
* Yana
* Yocha Dehe
* Yokuts
* Yuki (Ukomno'm)
* Yurok
* Abenaki
* Accohannock Maryland
* Algonquian lower Saint Lawrence River
* Anishinaabe (Anishinape, Anicinape, Neshnabé, Nishnaabe) (see also Subarctic, Plains)
o Algonquin Quebec, Ontario
o Nipissing Ontario
o Ojibwa (Chippewa, Ojibwe) Ontario, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota
+ Mississaugas Ontario
+ Saulteaux (Nakawē) Ontario
o Ottawa (Odawa) Ontario, Michigan
o Potawatomi Ontario, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin
* Beothuk
* Caniba
* Chicora Eastern NC & SC
* Chowanoc in North Carolina.
* Congarees in North Carolina
* Piscataway-Conoy
* Coree in North Carolina.
* Eno. North Carolina
* Erie
* Etchemin Quebec (Maliseet)
* Fox
* Hatteras
* Ho-Chunk Wisconsin
o Winnebago Wisconsin around Green Bay, now Nebraska
* Honniasont Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia
* Hopewell Ohio and Black River region
* Huron/Wyandot Ontario south of Georgian Bay, now Oklahoma and Wendake, Quebec
* Illinois Illinois
o Miami Indiana, now Oklahoma
o Peoria Illinois, now Oklahoma
o Wea
* Iroquois New York
o Cayuga
o Mohawk – Kahnawake, Quebec
o Oneida
o Onondaga
o Seneca
o Tuscarora
* Jaupin or Weapemoc. North Carolina.
* Kickapoo Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Mexico
* Keyauwee, North Carolina
* Laurentian/St. Lawrence Iroquoians
* Lenni-Lenape Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, now Ontario and Oklahoma
o Munsee
o Unami
o Unalachtigo
* Loup A
* Loup B
* Lumbee
* Machapunga in North Carolina
* Maliseet Maine, Quebec, and New Brunswick, Canada
* Mascouten
* Massachusett Massachusetts
o Ponkapoag
* Meherrin
* Menominee
* Mingo Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia
* Mahican
* Micmac
* Mohegan
* Montauk New York
* Nanticoke
* Narragansett Rhode Island
* Neusiok North Carolina
* Neutral
* Niantic
* Nipmuck Massachusetts
* Nottaway North Carolina
* Ocaneechee
* Pamlico
* Pasquotank
* Passamaquoddy Maine
* Pee Dee (tribe)
* Penobscot Maine
* Pequot
* Petun
* Pocumtuk
* Pokanoket Tribe of the Wampanoag Nation - Rhode Island and Massachusetts
* Poospatuck New York
* Potawatomi, Michigan
* Potoskeet North Carolina
* Powhatan Virginia
* Quinnipiac Connecticut, eastern New York, northern New Jersey, Long Island

Hammonasset, Mattabesec, Mattatuck, Menunkatuck, Meriden (tribe), Mioonkhtuck, Naugatuck (people), Nehantic, Paugusset, Podunk (people), Potatuck, Totoket, Tunxis, Wangunk, Wepawaug

* Ramapough Mountain Indians New Jersey
* Santee of South Carolina
* Saponi Virginia and North Carolina
* Sauk
* Schaghticoke Western Connecticut
* Secotan
* Sewee
* Shakori, North Carolina
* Shawnee Ohio, West Virginia, Pennsylvania [most ended up in Oklahoma]
* Shinnecock New York
* Sissipahaw
* Souriquoian
* Sugaree
* Susquehannock
* Tarrantine (Tarranteen), see Abenaki, Micmac
* Unquachog
* Waccamaw
* Wampanoag Massachusetts
* Wappinger
* Wateree
* Wawenoc
* Waxhaw in North Carolina and South Carolina
* Wenrohronon Pennsylvania and New York
* Woccon
* Wyandot/Huron Ontario south of Georgian Bay, now Oklahoma and Wendake, Quebec
* Bannock
* Chemehuevi
* Gosiute Utah
* Kawaiisu
* Koso (Panamint)
* Mono
* Northern Paiute California, Nevada, Oregon [Burns-Paiute], Arizona
* Southern Paiute (Kaibab)
* Paviotso
* Pima
* Shoshone (Shoshoni) Nevada, Wyoming, California
* Timbisha
* Tohono O'odham
* Ute Utah, Colorado
* Washo Nevada, California
* Cayuse Oregon
* Celilo (Wayampam)
* Upper Chinookan (Dialects: Clackamas, Cascades, Hood River, Wasco, Wishram, Kathlamet, Cathlamet, Multnomah)
* Columbian (Dialects: Wenatchee, Sinkayuse, Chelan)
* Coeur d'Alene Idaho
* Colville Washington
* Upper Cowlitz
* Flathead (Selisch or Salish) Idaho and Montana
* Klamath Oregon
* Klickitat Tribe Washington
* Kootenai/Ktunaxa British Columbia, Montana, Idaho
* Lower Snake (Chamnapam, Wauyukma, Naxiyampam)
* Modoc California, Oregon
* Molala (Molale) Oregon
* Nez Perce Idaho
* Nicola Athapaskans (extinct)
* Nicola people
* Nlaka'pamux aka the Thompson people
* Okanagan (Siylx), BC & Washington
* Palus (Palouse)
* Pend'Oreilles (Kalispel) Washington
* Rock Creek
* Sahaptin people
* Sanpoil (tribe)
* Secwepemc (Shuswap) British Columbia
* Sinixt (Lakes) British Columbia, Washington, Idaho
* Spokane Washington
* St'at'imc (Lillooet)
o Lil'wat
o In-SHUCK-ch
* Tygh
* Tygh Valley
* Umatilla Oregon
* Upper Nisqually (Mishalpan)
* Walla Walla Oregon
* Wanapum
* Wasco Oregon
* Yakama Washington
* Ahantchuyuk - see Kalapuya
* Alsea
* Applegate
* Atfalati - see Kalapuya
* Bella Bella - see Heiltsuk
* Bella Coola - see Nuxalk
* Burrard - see Tsleil-waututh
* Calapooia - see Kalapuya
* Calapuya - see Kalapuya
* Central Kalapuya - see Kalapuya
* Chasta Costa - see Rogue River
* Chehalis (Upper and Lower) Washington
* Chehalis (BC), Fraser Valley
* Chemakum Washington (extinct)
* Chetco - see Tolowa
* Chinook Dialects: (Lower Chinook, Upper Chinook, Clackamas, Wasco)
* Clallam - see Klallam
* Clatsop
* Comox Vancouver Island/BC Georgia Strait
* Coos {Hanis} Oregon
* Lower Coquille (Miluk) Oregon
* Upper Coquille
* Cowichan Southern Vancouver Island/Georgia Strait
o Quwutsun
o Somena
o Quamichan
* Lower Cowlitz Washington
* Duwamish Washington
* Eyak Alaska
* Galice
* Gitxsan, British Columbia
* Haida (Dialects: Kaigani, Skidegate, Masset) BC & Alaska
* Haisla BC North/Central Coast
o Haihai
o Kimsquit
o Kitimaat
* Heiltsuk BC Central Coast
* Hoh Washington
* Kalapuya (Calapooia, Calapuya)
o North Kalapuya
+ Yamhill (Yamel)
+ Tualatin
+ Tfalati (Atfalati)
o Central Kalapuya
+ Santiam
+ Mary's River
+ Lakmiut
+ Ahantchuyuk
+ Lower McKenzie (Mohawk people (Oregon))
o South Kalapuya (Yonkalla, Yoncalla)
* Klallam (Clallam, Dialects: Klallam (Lower Elwha), S'Klallam (Jamestown), S'Klallam (Port Gamble))
* Klickitat
* Kwalhioqua
* Kwakwaka'wakw (Kwakiutl)
o Koskimo
o 'Namgis
o Laich-kwil-tach (Euclataws or Yuculta)
* Kwalhioqua
* Kwatami
* Lakmiut - see Kalapuya
* Lower McKenzie - see Kalapuya
* Lummi Washington
* Makah Washington
* Mary's River - see Kalapuya
* Muckleshoot Washington
* Musqueam BC Lower Mainland (Vancouver)
* Nisga'a, British Columbia
* Nisqually - Washington
* Nooksack Washington
* North Kalapuya - see Kalapuya
* Nisqually Washington
* Nuu-chah-nulth West Coast of Vancouver Island
* Nuxalk (Bella Coola) - BC Central Coast
* Oowekeno - see Wuikinuxv
* Pentlatch Vancouver Island/Georgia Strait (extinct)
* Puyallup Washington
* Quileute Washington
* Quinault Washington
* Rivers Inlet - see Wuikinuxv
* Rogue River or Upper Illinois Oregon, California
* Saanich Southern Vancouver Island/Georgia Strait
* Samish Washington
* Santiam - see Kalapuya
* Sauk-Suiattle Washington
* Sechelt BC Sunshine Coast/Georgia Strait (Shishalh)
* Shoalwater Bay Tribe Washington
* Siletz Oregon
* Siuslaw Oregon
* Skagit
* Skokomish Washington
* Skwxwu7mesh (Squamish), British Columbia
* Sliammon BC Sunshine Coast/Georgia Strait (Mainland Comox)
* Snohomish
* Snoqualmie
* Snuneymuxw (Nanaimo), Vancouver Island
* Songhees (Songish) Southern Vancouver Island/Strait of Juan de Fuca
* Sooke Southern Vancouver Island/Strait of Juan de Fuca
* South Kalapuya - see Kalapuya
* Squaxin Island Tribe Washington
* Spokane Washington
* Stillaguamish Washington
* Sto:lo, BC Lower Mainland/Fraser Valley
o Kwantlen
o Katzie
* Squamish - see Skwxwu7mesh
* Suquamish Washington
* Swinomish Washington
* Tait
* Takelma Oregon
* Talio
* Tfalati - see Kalapuya
* Tillamook (Nehalem) Oregon
* Tlatlasikoala
* Tlingit Alaska
* Tolowa-Tututni
* Tsimshian
* Tsleil-waututh (Burrard) - British Columbia
* Tualatin - see Kalapuya
* Tulalip Washington
* Twana Washington
* Tzouk-e (Sooke) Vancouver Island
* Lower Umpqua Oregon
* Upper Umpqua Oregon
* Upper Skagit Washington
* Wuikinuxv (Owekeeno), BC Central Coast
* Yamel - see Kalapuya
* Yamhill - see Kalapuya
* Yaquina
* Yoncalla - see Kalapuya
* Yonkalla - see Kalapuya
* Anishinaabe (Anishinape, Anicinape, Neshnabé, Nishnaabe) (see also Subarctic, Northeast Woodlands)
o Ojibwa (Chippewa, Ojibwe) Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Saskatchewan, Manitoba
+ Saulteaux (Plains Ojibwe, Nakawē) British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba
+ Chippewa Cree Montana
o Ottawa (Odawa) Oklahoma
o Potawatomi Kansas, Oklahoma
* Jicarilla Apache New Mexico
* Lipan Apache New Mexico, Texas
* Mescalero Apache New Mexico
* Plains Apache (Kiowa-Apache) Oklahoma
* Arapaho (Arapahoe, Arrapahoe) Oklahoma, Wyoming
o Besawunena
o Nawathinehena
* Arikara (Arikaree, Arikari, Ree) North Dakota
* Atsina (Gros Ventre) Montana
* Blackfoot
o Kainah (Blood) Alberta
o Northern Peigan Alberta
o Piegan (Blackfeet) Montana
o Siksika Alberta
* Cheyenne Montana, Oklahoma
* Comanche Oklahoma
* Plains Cree Montana
* Crow (Absaroka, Apsáalooke) Montana
* Hasinai
* Hidatsa North Dakota
* Iowa (Ioway) Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma
* Kaw (Kansa, Kanza) Oklahoma
* Kiowa Oklahoma
* Kitsai (Kichai) Oklahoma
* Mandan North Dakota
* Missouri (Missouria) Oklahoma
* Omaha Nebraska
* Osage Oklahoma
* Otoe (Oto) Oklahoma
* Pawnee (dialects: South Band, Skiri) Oklahoma
* Ponca Nebraska, Oklahoma
* Quapaw Oklahoma
* Sioux
o Dakota Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Manitoba, Saskatchewan
o Lakota (Teton) Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Saskatchewan
o Stoney Alberta
o Assiniboine (Assiniboin) Montana, Saskatchewan (Fort Peck Indian Reservation is home to Assiniboine and Sioux)
* Tonkawa Oklahoma
* Tsuu T’ina (Sarcee, Sarsi, Tsuut’ina) Alberta
* Wichita (Affiliated Tribes − Wichita, Waco, Tawakoni, Keechi) Oklahoma
* Abihka Alabama
* Adaes - see Adai
* Acolapissa Louisiana
* Adahi - see Adai
* Adai (Adaizan, Adaizi, Adaise, Adahi, Adaes, Adees, Atayos) Louisiana
* Adaise - see Adai
* Adaizan - see Adai
* Adaizi - see Adai
* Adees - see Adai
* Ais Florida
* Akokisa Texas southeast coast
* Alabama Alabama
* Alafay (Alafia, Pojoy, Pohoy, Costas Alafeyes, Alafaya Costas) Florida
* Amacano Florida
* Apalachee Florida
* Apalachicola Georgia, Florida
* Atakapa (Attacapa) Louisiana west coast
* Atayos - see Adai
* Attacapa - see Atakapa
* Avoyel ("little Natchez") northern Texas
* Backhooks Nation (=Pahoc ?) South Carolina
* Bayogoula southeastern Louisiana
* Bidai eastern Texas
* Biloxi Mississippi
* Boca Ratones Florida
* Caddo Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas
* Calusa Florida
* Cape Fear Indians North Carolina southern coast
* Catawba South Carolina
* Chatot (tribe) (Chacato, Chactoo) West Florida
* Chawasha
* Cheraw (Chara, Charàh) North Carolina
* Cherokee North Carolina, Eastern Tennessee; later Oklahoma
* Chiaha
* Chickahominy Virginia
* Chickamauga A Branch of Cherokee in Southeastern Tennessee, Northeastern Georgia
* Chickanee (Chiquini) North Carolina
* Chickasaw Mississippi, South Carolina, North Carolina, later Oklahoma
* Chine Florida
* Chisca (Cisca) Florida
* Chitimacha Louisiana
* Choctaw Mississippi, Alabama, and parts of Louisiana; later Oklahoma
* Creek Alabama; Oklahoma, Georgia
* Congaree (Canggaree) South Carolina
* Coree North Carolina
* Coushatta Louisiana
* Coharie North Carolina
* Cusabo coastal South Carolina
* Eno (people) North Carolina
* Eyeish (Hais, Aliche, Aiche) eastern Texas
* Garza Texas, northern Mexico
* Grigra
* Guacata (Santalûces) Florida
* Guacozo Florida
* Guazoco Florida
* Guale (Iguaja, Ybaja) coastal Georgia & Florida
* Hitchiti Georgia, Alabama, Florida
* Hooks Nation (=Huaq ?) South Carolina
* Houma Louisiana
* Iswa
* Jaega Florida
* Jobe (Hobe) Florida, part of Jaega
* Jororo Florida
* Keyauwee North Carolina
* Koasati
* Koroa
* Luca (tribe) Florida
* Lumbee North Carolina
* Manahoac Virginia
* Mattaponi Virginia
* Matecumbe (Matacumbêses, Matacumbe, Matacombe) Florida coast
* Mayaca (tribe) Florida
* Mayaimi Florida
* Mayajuaca Florida
* Meherrin North Carolina
* Mikasuki (Miccosukee) Florida
* Mobila (Mobile, Movila) Alabama, western Florida(?)
* Mocoso Florida
* Monacan Virginia
* Monyton (Moneton, Monekot, Moheton) (Siouan) West Virginia, Virginia
* Mougoulacha southeastern Louisiana
* Nahyssan Virginia
* Naniaba Alabama
* Nansemond Virginia
* Natchez Mississippi, Louisiana
* Neusiok (Newasiwac, Neuse River Indians) North Carolina
* Nottaway
* Occaneechi (Siouan) Virginia
* Oconee Georgia, Florida
* Ofo
* Okchai (Ogchay)
* Okelousa Louisiana
* Opelousa Louisiana
* Osochee (Oswichee, Usachi, Oosécha)
* Pacara Florida
* Pakana (Pacâni, Pagna, Pasquenan, Pak-ká-na, Pacanas)
* Pamlico (North Carolina)
* Pamunkey Virginia
* Pascagoula Mississippi coast
* Patiri southeastern Texas
* Pee Dee South Carolina, North Carolina
* Pensacola Florida panhandle
* Quinipissa southeastern Louisiana
* Rappahannock Tribe Virginia
* Saluda (Saludee, Saruti) South Carolina
* Santee (Seretee, Sarati, Sati, Sattees) South Carolina (≠Santee Sioux)
* Santa Luces Florida
* Saponi
* Saura North Carolina
* Sawokli (Sawakola, Sabacola, Sabacôla, Savacola) Florida
* Saxapahaw (Sissipahua, Shacioes) North Carolina
* Seminole Florida, Oklahoma
* Sewee (Suye, Joye, Xoye, Soya) South Carolina coast
* Shoccoree (Schockoorees ?) North Carolina (also Virginia?)
* Stegara
* Stuckanox
* Sugeree (Sagarees, Sugaws, Sugar, Succa) South Carolina
* Surruque Florida
* Suteree (Sitteree, Sutarees, Sataree) North Carolina
* Taensa
* Tawasa Virginia
* Tequesta Florida
* Terocodame Texas and Mexico
o Codam
o Hieroquodame
o Oodame
o Perocodame
o Teroodame
* Timucua Florida, Georgia
o Acuera Florida
o Agua Fresca Florida
o Arapaha Florida
o Itafi (or Icafui)
o Mocama Florida, Georgia
o Northern Utina Florida,
o Ocale Florida
o Oconi Florida, Georgia
o Potano Florida
o Tucururu Florida
o Yufera Georgia
o Yustaga Florida
* Tiou
* Tocaste Florida
* Tocobaga Florida
* Tohomé Alabama
* Tomahitan eastern Tennessee
* Topachula Florida
* Tukabatchee (Tuk-ke-bat-che)
* Tuscarora North Carolina, Virginia (later Niagara Falls, NY)
* Tuskegee
* Tutelo
* Tunica Mississippi
* Utiza Florida
* Vicela Florida
* Viscaynos Florida
* Waccamaw South Carolina
* Wateree (Guatari, Watterees) North Carolina
* Waxhaw (Waxsaws, Wisack, Wisacky, Weesock, Flathead) South Carolina
* Westo Virginia, South Carolina
* Wetumpka (Wee-tam-ka)
* Winyaw South Carolina
* Woccon
* Yamasee Florida, Georgia
* Yazoo
* Yuchi
* Acoma
* Ak Chin Arizona
* Apachean
o Chiricahua
o Jicarilla
o Mescalero
o Navajo (Navaho, Diné) Arizona, New Mexico
o Western Apache (Coyotero Apache) Arizona
o Apaches Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma
* Aranama (aka Hanáma, Hanáme, Chaimamé, Charinames, Xaranames, Taranames)
* Coahuiltecan Texas, northern Mexico
* Cochimi Baja California
* Cochiti
* Cocopa Arizona
* Comecrudo Texas, northern Mexico
* Cotoname (aka Carrizo de Camargo)
* Genízaro Arizona, New Mexico
* Halchidhoma
* Hano
* Hualapai
* Havasupai Arizona
* Hohokam Arizona
* Hopi Arizona
* Isleta
* Isleta del Sur
* Jemez
* Jumano
* Karankawa
* Kavelchadhom
* Keres
* Laguna
* Los Luceros
* Mamulique Texas, northern Mexico
* Maricopa
* Mohave
* Nambe
* Pecos
* Picuris
* Pima Arizona
* Pima Bajo
* Piro
* Pueblo people New Mexico
* Qahatika
* Quechan Arizona
* Quems
* Sandia (Nafiat was the name for the Bernalillo pueblo)
* San Carlos
* San Felipe
* San Idelfonso
* San Juan
* Santa Ana
* Santa Clara
* Santo Domingo
* Solano
* Suma
* Taos
* Tesuque
* Tewa
* Tigua
* Tamique
* Toboso
* Tohono O'odham (Papago) Arizona
* Ubate
* Walapai
* Yaqui
* Yavapai, (Mojave-Apache) see Yavapai-Apache Nation, Yavapai-Prescott Tribe Arizona (often confused with Tonto Apache and Mojave)
* Yuma (Quechan)
* Zia
* Z

You're welcome.

Bugsy Segal said...

Mmmm...this gives me an idea...

Brian said...

cb: them ain't "nations" They are merely the equivalent of individual street gangs that needed to be educated.

Besides, it took the Genocide to introduce these heathen less-than-hordes to the joyous news of JAYSUS, so it was all for the good!

LA Confidential Pantload said...

Brian, if we go to the "Gnadenhutten" tape, we find that swallowing Baby Jeebus whole as one's personal Christ 'n Savior 'n shit didn't do fuck-all for those citoyens of Native American Nation who chose to swing that way. Actually, they would have been much better off joining the White Nation. Except they couldn't.

Anonymous said...

La Confidential Pantload:

Maybe it's not that confidential. But it sure is a ........

PS. Beware of those who talk of "brown people".

LA Confidential Pantload said...

Anonymous, I admit to being slightly disturbed about remonstrations re my 'confidentiality' from one who styles him/herself as 'Anonymous.' So much for scare quotes, single or double.

Don't quite follow your post script. Are you referring to the classic "Fear of a Brown-People Talking Planet?"

Big Dork with a Senior Thesis said...

Our forefathers didn't attempt to eradicate one people or one nation from the Earth; they did eradicate many nations and many peoples from the Earth, from one end of a continent to the other.

IOZ,

Notwithstanding the substantial number of indigenous people that were crushed under the hooves of the U.S. Cavalry or cut down by the smallpox (and the expropriation, displacement and marginalization that came soon after), I feel compelled as a student of Native American history to remind you that Native Americans are still here! Their nations and cultures are enduring. They were never eradicated -- and not from lack of trying by the Great Father.

IOZ said...

I feel compelled as a student of Native American history to remind you that Native Americans are still here! Their nations and cultures are enduring. They were never eradicated -- and not from lack of trying by the Great Father.

Point taken, although we'd reply: some of 'em.

Cüneyt said...

It's beside the point, but I have no idea how the Turks put up bigger numbers than the Americans in all this. I mean, feel free to choose your ethnic cleansing exemplars as you wish. The basics I won't dispute.

Cüneyt said...

I think most of the Native American issue is ignored because A) cowboys and injuns is (or at the least was) a national myth, B) killing your own people, or people within your declared and sacrosanct borders is A-OK, and C) fuck, how many Indians were there anyway? That takes a lot of demographic data and who has the time, right?

I'm not criticizing you for your example at all, but what about, say, Vietnam? Weren't at least a few million killed there? Instead, we hear about the Boat People. VC and North Vietnamese torture. We never hear about policies intended to entirely restructure the Vietnamese way of life, to urbanize them, to herd them as we desired. We were every bit as colonialist as the Soviets were when they went through Eastern Europe and yet... their nation-building was wrong.

And Afghanistan? It's the same play, but this time the Russians are Yankees and Chernenko is a sharp, colored Chicagoan! Brezhnev, in flashbacks of course, is portrayed as a wise-cracking Texan. And nation-building is good now. Ooh, I love reboots!

Brian said...

Big Dork:

If you read the doom sayers and peak oil sites, the natives will be around after us white folks have been reduced to bands of scavengers on decrepit motorcycles chasing the few remaining oil tankers.

I think Ioz would make an EXCELLENT Humungous, though!

paul from the clue-by-four said...

teh ayatollah ov rock-an-rollah!

Solar Hero said...

I'm Seneca raised in Susquehannock territory.

Inkberrow said...

cb--

Bless you for that comprehensive list, although it's unfortunate you couldn't list the affected Amerindians individually. Now the noble North American Nations all got along well with each other, right, as well as embracing environmentally-sound land-use and wildlife practices? I only ask because some, perhaps questionable and bigoted, histories suggest that further on south, Noble Nations like the Aztecs practiced violent subjugation and long-term overlordship themselves at the expense of "lesser" peoples, even to the extent of lining the Lessers up by the thousands for ritual sacrifice to Overlord Gods. If indeed such organized Bigotry did occur, it is of course mitigated by not being the product of capitalist or Judeo-Christian sensibilities.

As a U.K. citizen, I find myself still bristling over the genocide of the Picts, though a few hundred more years have since elapsed to help dry my tears and rescue my outrage from ahistorical sanctimony. Perhaps, cb, we may find some meagre solace in the Amerindian genocide in the way I have regarding that of the Picts---in the end, the arrival of written language and complex thought was advanced by several hundred years.

Anonymous said...

Where else other than these here internets could you see ethnic cleansing on a small scale justify ethnic cleansing on a vast scale? IOZ's commenters: teh bestz

IOZ said...

Complex thought! Har har. Blawg. No offense, brother, but if you're going to try to strike that sort of pose, you should really have the figure for it. Resident undercutter TGGP has got the goods to back it up when opining on such matters. You on the other hand come off more like Cate Blanchett playing KGB.

Inkberrow said...

IOZ---

No offense taken, big fella! After all, if my "pose" actually was just a throwaway "pose", you would have declined to reply merely to express the obvious. As to "TGGP" having the "goods" versus myself generally, I'll take your well-informed word on it.

Luckily, very little is required of me in order to carry my point, especially where "complex thought" is concerned. I'll cautiously posit "The Collected Platitudes of Coyote" as against, e.g., the "Critique of Pure Reason". Hint---the latter is a tad bit more complex....

Mr.Fundamental said...

meh. "we" killed a bunch of natives.

so what?

what do you want me to do about it?

IOZ said...

Now you've lost me. The Choctaw never developed Continental philosophy, ergo . . . what? No offense, brother, but I kind of doubt that Andrew Jackson slept with a volume of Kant under his pillow. Jamestown, meanwhile, was founded in 1607. From non sequitur to anachronism is no easy steps.

Inkberrow said...

IOZ---

While I appreciate the invitation, I'm not going to help you pull your eel. As you know, I'm talking about the comparative intellectual work product of the respective cultures. You mentioned, quite powerfully, the year 1607. If I'm unaware of the Amerindian analogue to the works which would shortly form the First Folio, you carry the day. How about a chunk of doggerel for starters? I concede that information about the very Mozart of eighteenth century pow-wow drummers may have been suppressed by hegemonic Anglo historians. And yes, Andy J. was a philistine! What an effective rejoinder that is....

Cüneyt said...

Why do I have a vision of some Roman opining: "Well, if druidic wisdom was so great, why didn't they write it down?"

The march of civilization always makes for a good justification for mass murder. Glad to see some of us appreciate the classics.

IOZ said...

I think inkberrow may in fact be John Cleese.

cb said...

inkberrow - What, exactly, is your criticism of my original post?

People asked what nations and peoples IOZ was referring to. I provided a list.

If 99% of the European population was wiped out, I don't think there would be this same group of commenters saying: "Well, it wasn't like it was multiple nations and peoples destroyed -- just Europeans." The idea that there was some monolithic and homogenous pre-Columbian Indian state is breathtakingly ignorant.

I only ask because some, perhaps questionable and bigoted, histories suggest that further on south, Noble Nations like the Aztecs practiced violent subjugation and long-term overlordship themselves at the expense of "lesser" peoples, even to the extent of lining the Lessers up by the thousands for ritual sacrifice to Overlord Gods.
Are you seriously arguing that Aztec ritual practices in the 16th century justify the treaty-breaking with respect to the Plains Indians, a group of people with different culture and practices who lived 2000 miles away and 200 years in the future?

I find it hard to believe that someone could be THAT stupid and still operate a keyboard. Then again, here you are.

Big Dork with a Senior Thesis said...

Are you seriously arguing that Aztec ritual practices in the 16th century justify the treaty-breaking with respect to the Plains Indians, a group of people with different culture and practices who lived 2000 miles away and 200 years in the future?

I find it hard to believe that someone could be THAT stupid and still operate a keyboard. Then again, here you are.


Heavens to Betsy, you are delightful.

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt---

Sure, if you can imagine it, or if you need it, for some ethical or emotional imperative, it probably happened. We can call it St. Cuneyt's Ontological Proof for the Existence of Advanced Amerindian Culture. (I know, IOZ et al, that kooky conception "advanced", viz., things like the written word, systematic thought, the wheel).

Tell me, Cuneyt, did you apply this rigorously optimistic logic to the search for WMDs in Iraq? Maybe you are LDS, and know there were pre-Columbian walled cities in America with iron smelters and horse-drawn chariots?

Inkberrow said...

IOZ---

The venerable Mr. Cleese overcame his sense of obligation to Western Civilization. It had something to do with free sexual intercourse and reinventing the Pharisee.

Inkberrow said...

cb---

Did you have difficulty in high-school algebra? I did not for one instant suggest that Aztec depredations "justified" Anglo perfidy to North American natives. Instead, I suggest that Aztec depredations, among many other examples, provide much-needed context for those engaged in the faddish, sanctimonious condemnation of the last half-millenium of Anglo-European culture and expansion, condemnation that is the equal opposite of the jingoistic America First gladhanding of Ward Cleaver's day. Good one about the keyboard!

cb said...

Again, why should the practice of the Aztecs provide "much-needed" context for actions undertaken many centuries later, against a group of politically and culturally people in a geographically distant location?

The history of the Indian nations ("nations" not being some faddish sanctimonious term, but the phrase that the federal government used and currently uses) were recognized by the US government as sovereign nations. The US signed treaties with them guaranteeing rights, land, etc., then unilaterally abrogated those treaties, then wrote new treaties, only to again throw those aside when it proved convenient. Indian treaty rights are still a major source of conflict in the American West, and they have nothing to do with Kant, Mozart, or whether the Mayans were good mathematicians. But I get the impression that you're not really serious about these issues, but just want to show up and get in some snide digs about the politics of people who actually know something about pre-Columbian societies, sprinkled with woo-woo fist pumps about the superiority of white culture over brown people,

On the other hand, maybe you are actually serious. Let's adopt your "treaty obligations don't apply to nations with inferior culture" doctrine. It certainly explains WWII. I can just picture Hitler drawing up his list: "Hmm... Kant, Beethoven, Mozart, Goethe, Wagner, Nietsche, Gauss, Bach -- and Poland's got what? Chopin? He even spent most of his life in Paris -- Fuck it, we're invading. No one can complain!"

(also, algebra? What? You are like some amazing not-even-close-to-relevant machine. What'll you bring up in your next post? Hilbert spaces? Dromedary camels? Ninjas?)

cb said...

the word "distinct" belongs in that first question, right after "politically and culturally." My apologies.

Anonymous said...

I like Inkberrow's advanced logic: Germans tried to kill all the jews and came pretty close, ergo, Western Europe deserves mass North African/Slavic migration and terrorism.

Anonymous said...

cb...you are not nearly as clever as you imagine yourself to be. re-read what the dude wrote. you may not agree with what he says, but what you said in no way addresses his point. F-Y-I, dude.

Windy said...

cb:
Let's adopt your "treaty obligations don't apply to nations with inferior culture" doctrine. It certainly explains WWII.

Don't forget the pacifism clause. Could it be that the various Eastern European nations did not always get along very well with each other before Operation Barbarossa? Context, context!

--
Anonymous:
you may not agree with what he says, but what you said in no way addresses his point.

It does. Insofar as he has one.

Cüneyt said...

Inkberrow, your rigid adherence to this sentiment of "technology makes superiority" is rather thoughtless. I do not need to prove iron-smelting to show that the Native Americans deserved to live, or survive as a culture, any more than European iron-smelting proved its worthiness. It's incidental. I would, however, point to the fact that sophisticated cultures have been denounced by others due to the means of transmitting their wisdom (i.e., the Gauls' oral histories).

It is my thought that, given that all human languages show a comparable complexity, we might not so easily shrug off the mental and cultural abilities of societies, no matter how low-tech their equipment might be. You and those like you often overvalue technology, which is delightful but in no way qualifies a civilization to exist. Unless you're making a might makes right argument, which is logically consistent and to which I have no factual reply.

It is my thought that, with less centralized means of food production and less effective means of slaughter, native rulers might have actually been as sophisticated or more sophisticated than Europeans, who had successive centuries of resource management to lean on when it came to drawing the population in line. But men like you look at cultural and political accomplishments and shrug. Show me the operas, show me the guns. Well, that's the thing about burning a society down. You miss the subtler cultural points. We still don't understand why the Aztecs went to war, and how much of it was cold calculation designed to whittle down neighbors and how much was really ritual warfare intended to let off steam. And, had the Mongols bothered to take Europe in the 1200s, let me assure you--some nuance would be lost. Superiority ain't what it's cracked up to be. A lot of it comes down to chance, location, and facts are that humans are rather impressive everywhere, if you bother to look.

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt:

For what little it may be worth, I respect what you wrote and admire how you deliver it. But if you cannot quickly acknowledge that the richness, diversity, and complexity of the cultures of Kant and Mozart were far and away superior and more advanced in absolute terms to/than their contemporaneous Amerindian counterparts, in ways transcending "technology", I cannot scale the wall against which you are pounding your head. For my part, I bear no resentment at suggestions that my face-painting Pictish forebears were considerably less advanced than their Chinese contemporaries. None of the foregoing suggests "inherent" superiority, or moral/ethical superiority.

Maybe you and the other ersatz progressives here have a Noble Savage fetish, per your intellectual scion, Rousseau the Romantic.

Inkberrow said...

Correction, ooops---y'all may be Rousseau's scions....

ha said...

"cb...you are not nearly as clever as you imagine yourself to be."

Well, very few people on this blog, including the actual blogger, are nearly as clever as they imagine themselves to be. Including me!

Cüneyt said...

I don't believe in Noble Savagery, and I don't believe that the natives were superior to us in some moral sense, as that stereotype suggests. And I don't like Rousseau all that much, either.

I'm glad you like European cultural accomplishments. I do too. I might quibble over Kant, especially as you placed him before Mozart (and nary a mention of Beethoven?), but that would be beside the point.

No, I have no fetish. I just wonder exactly what grounds you have to value the Holy Roman Empire over the Iroquois League, or Mozart over, yes, some bunch of savages whooping around a fire. After all, it is with such ease that European aristocrats long ignored their own popular music that you now dismiss native culture and, yes, native thought. Your dismissal, like theirs, is based in taste. Don't call me foolish because I question your belief in the obvious superiority of Kant. Obvious superiorities seldom exist, aside from who wins and who dies. But you're not willing to make that argument, at least not directly. Are you a might makes right kind of guy? All else seems open to debate.

If you're set on denigrating your forebears, then that's fine and dandy. I'm not going to join you. Nor am I going to indulge in the usual Indo-Aryan psychodramas of human and non-human, fit and unfit, pure and impure (I know, I know--hardly limited to the IE peoples, but let's credit your superior culture with all its exports; if you claim Versailles, I'll stick you with Nuremberg, too). I love European culture. I'm not trashing it. I just refuse to reduce the American natives to an irrelevancy. That's all.

Inkberrow said...

cb---

Re "algebra" I was thinking of the distributive property, simplification, etc.

You---bad Anglos!
Me---bad Aztecs!
You---How dare you say the Anglos were not bad!

The rest of your fulmination was interesting, if inapposite, to my call for Anglo depredations to no longer be considered different in kind than countless others across time and the globe, as a function of some tiresome, ahistorical moral pose.

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt---

Fair enough, thanks. For my part where the Amerindians are concerned, from K-12 through the Academy, I'll happily settle for something between "an irrelevancy" and Bambi's mother.

Anonymous said...

Inkberrow - So your problem is that as a child you were preached to about the awful genocide of the American Indian and instead of thinking "Yes well that's terrible but it's not like we were exactly innovators in that field" like a normal, rational person, you decided to go for "Fuck Sitting Bull, he never wrote any operas!" as your response instead.

Anybody ever tell you you should kill yourself? I'd be shocked if it hadn't been suggested to you as a worthwhile pursuit more than once. After all, you never produced any worthwhile culture either, and I'm certainly sick of hearing from you, so how about you do me a favor and eat a shotgun. You can call it an offering to the dread Gods of culture.

windy said...

Me---bad Aztecs!

"Bad Stalin!" would be an adequate response to a discussion of Hitler's treaty violations on your planet?

Cüneyt said...

Them Iraqis never came up with 24 or CSI. Kill 'em all.

Inkberrow said...

Anonymous @8:49---

I wonder if you're aware that you read like a violent hegemon far more than I do. Are you an Dread Anglo, perchance, the Hissed-At Villain of the last half-millenium's Melodrama?

Just kidding! Your surface-humanitarian moralizing aside, I realize it's less the practice of violent hegemony that you're objecting to so much as the particular worldview codifying favored and disfavored objects.

Inkberrow said...

Windy---

No, what you posted would be an embarrassing non sequitur almost universally, even on Planet Kolob.

Plus, I read in the NY Times that the accusations of mass-murder against Papa Joe were largely untrue, and fomented by his ideological opponents. Not at all like the Tales of Deliberate Distribution of Smallpox-Infected Blankets, which our schoolkiddies get with their morning snack.....

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt---

No reason to diss those Mesopotamian natives even within the box of your patent cultural bigotry---I understand they are several thousand years removed from their aboriginal Loincloth 'n Spear days. Some judgemental, benighted academics have the temerity to refer to the area between the Tigris and the Euphrates as one of the cradles of something they call "civilization"......

Cüneyt said...

Yeah, well, Hitler was thousands of years removed, too. Are you gonna stop dancing and make points? All I'm saying is that, when you reduce it all to cultural import, it's all relative. Legitimize a mass killing, and you're close to legitimizing all of them. Dig?

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt---

Precisely. I dig. It IS all relative. As you say, legitimize one, legitimize all. And that means demonize one, demonize all, as well, which was my point with the Aztecs.

No place, then or now, for marginalizing proposed "victims" or caricaturizing particular "villains". No matter how convenient and satisfying it might seem, then or now, before or after.

Cüneyt said...

Well, you still have the matter of it being alright to slaughter the natives of North America because there was the waging of war in Mesoamerica. But who wants to rehash?

Cüneyt said...

No, wait. You said, conclusively, that the genociding culture was superior to the genocided. You never, ever, admitted that any cultures were themselves equivalent, because that was my point. You dismissed the Ghost Dance by invoking Mozart. So you don't get to play the one-worlder card now. That'd be disingenuous.

Windy said...

No, what you posted would be an embarrassing non sequitur almost universally, even on Planet Kolob.

What I posted was a reductio of your argument, so thanks for admitting that.

Maybe you ought to read the second to last sentence of the original post one more time before you go back charging against Rousseauian windmills.

Plus, I read in the NY Times that the accusations of mass-murder against Papa Joe were largely untrue, and fomented by his ideological opponents.

Are you trying to make a point about the NY Times (relevance, please?) or is it possible that you are actually serious?

Inlberrow said...

Cuneyt and Windy---

There's occasionally a divide between what I personally believe (less important) and the rote-facetious sendups and logical-extension exercises I often feel compelled to post based upon some of the strident moralizing I read here (more important). If I haven't been able to make that division clear, or when I am and am not serious, I'll take (some of the) responsibility. I'm flattered by the inquiry, but at this point I doubt any of us are truly interested in additional explication.

Cüneyt said...

Don't believe it. Inlberrow is clearly Inkberrow's cheap knock-off.

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt---

The real Inkberrow here; please pay no attention to the frivolous, untrustworthy "Inlberrow", who is the Lokai to my Commisioner Beal. Nevertheless, he is correct in this instance.

Anonymous said...

Inkberrow, you strike me as the kind of guy who savors the scent of his own flatulence, am I wrong? Christ, I've never read some one so in love with the inter-sound of his own e-voice and so utterly convinced of his wit and intellectual prowess and yet so utterly anemic on both counts outside of that David Brooks book I wiped with when my local Borders ran out of toilet paper.

Montag said...

I've never read some one so in love with the inter-sound of his own e-voice and so utterly convinced of his wit and intellectual prowess...

what, anon, you haven't been reading my stuff? why do i even bother?

Inkberrow said...

Anon @ 7:53---

You are correct, at least when I've been eating kimchee or barbeque pork rinds.

Meanwhile, I suspect from your rather perfervid tone that you assess "wit" and "intellectual prowess" from a location within the confines of your own navel.

Anonymous said...

"You are correct, at least when I've been eating kimchee or barbeque pork rinds.

Meanwhile, I suspect from your rather perfervid tone that you assess "wit" and "intellectual prowess" from a location within the confines of your own navel."

Thank you for proving my point, you colossally self-absorbed bore.

Seriously, are you George Will's ID let loose upon the internet in some sort of Freakazoid/Demon Seed sci-fi nightmare? I have a hard time believing anyone would choose to be such a towering Colossus of pretension and pseudo-intellectualism unless they were trying to nail an undergrad majoring in Women's Studies.

Inkberrow said...

Anon 1:17---

Thanks for proving MY point, Navel Gazer!

Forget Pretentious Me for the moment (if you can)---how do think you personally stack up against Geo. Will and even Our Mr. Brooks? Coupla half-witted pseudos, eh?

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