In a rather hilariously misbegotten--you'll pardon the expression--review, Andrew O'Heir lavishly praises the bumptious Terry Eagleton for disparaging the so-called new atheists habit of attacking religion only "in its stupidest and most literal-minded form" by picking on two of the most stupid and literal-minded atheists. To wit:
As Eagleton ultimately admits, the discount-store atheism of Dawkins and Hitchens is something of a useful straw man, and his real differences with them are, in the main, not theological but political.Thus do the second-rate doxologists of both sides ever creep into each others' nests, stealing eggs.
The new religionists, hoping to reclaim the centrality of their cultural artifacts from the scifi Dispensationalists and other such creatures, have in response to Hitchensian nitpickery trascended their god out of existence, eliminating one by one any discernible quality or attribute that might be observationally, empirically, or logically challenged. God is just, like, the universe, man. Your Eagletons and O'Heirs would object to this as crude caricature, but it's simply indisputable that Yaweh's life chart has plotted a trajectory from the concrete to the ineffable as the centuries and millennia have marched by, at least within Roman Catholicism and the declining sects of mainline Protestantism. Notably, O'Heir and Eagleton both conspicuously discount the rising non-denominational, evangelical creeds with cosmopolitan embarrassment, since these millions upon millions of believers do attribute actual qualities to their god, which are of course easily argued against and shown to be ridiculous.
Appeals to "Judeo-Christian" theology are particularly disingenuous in any argument about god as a thoroughly transcendent entity, because in the Jewish tradition, he is anything but. Much as he likes to thunder "I AM" like some cosmic Popeye, the god of the Tanak is an entity, who acts and communes directly with people and peoples, not merely some cut-rate cryptognostic demiurge. Or less yet:
Eagleton further argues that not only is the Ditchkinsian version of traditional Judeo-Christian belief a travesty, in which God is envisioned as an unproven and improbable creature like the yeti or the Loch Ness monster, but that this strain of post-Enlightenment atheism cannot comprehend the character of religious faith at all. The creedal declaration "I believe in God" is a statement of action and will; it is performative rather than assertive. It is not equivalent to the claim that God exists (although Christians believe that too). It possesses the kind of certainty that belongs to such wistful sentences as "I love you" or "I believe the Mets are the best team in baseball." It clearly lacks the empirical certainty of the sentence "I believe this maple tree will turn red in October."And there you have it, god in all his discorporeal non-glory proven, proven!, through the argument of that most sophisticated of all theologians, George Micahel.
28 comments:
I can get with the Quietist conception of God. Been reading Miguel de Molinos.
You seem to be making exactly Dawkins point here, after calling him one of the 'most stupid and literal-minded atheists'. So what's your beef with him, exactly? Politically, he's no Hitchens, plus he has the benefit of being sober most of the time.
Pepito
No real beef with Dawkins. That was just hasting posting. Should have read "by picking on what he would call two of the most stupid and literal-minded atheists." I meant to impute the sentiment to him, not to myself.
For the most part Dawkins and Hitchens just repeat the arguments covered by Russel and Hume. They are simplistic only to the extent disproving a Christian God is exceedingly simple.
The indoctrinated and/or stupid have thus retreated to a song and dance routine in which saying there is an argument is as good as making one. The chorus is always "you don't understand real religion!", which serves to hold at abeyance the inconvenient fact that there is nothing to understand.
You seem to have a foot in the peanut gallery and one on the stage. Crispy does too. I can't figure out why.
I wonder if that's the same non-demoninational god that gets trusted on our currency, presides over our loyalty oaths, and gets cited in innumerable official benedictions. Maybe they're related. Groovy.
assessment abandoned in light of interspersed comment.
"Hasty" posting. Lord, I should not smoke so much.
believes in the profound symbolic potency of Jesus, whether or not that he believes Jesus was the begotten son of God? wtf? has he even been in a church lately? "no man, I live near a church - I get a contact high from all the believers walking by after Sunday services."
I guess the supreme irony would be if he was sitting in a library in Rome while writing his book, without a clue (or any interest) as to how any of the surroundings were built, or got there. "I'm just here man. deal."
without a clue (or any interest) as to how any of the surroundings were built, or got there.
god did it.
"what do you mean, humans did all this in service and worship to their God, as a place that they can come and worship, and where God's authorities live and reign? that's just silly. architects and engineers did this. see, I have the blueprints they used right here."
"Discount-store atheism"? I guess that was an attempt at a putdown, but it comes across as someone affecting a sneer to keep anyone from noticing them sniffling.
And motherfucker, you can try to make Gawd as ineffable and Joseph-Campbell-mythological as you want. The bottom line is, the vast majority of believers have no interest in an absentee deity that doesn't even look at you, or else Deism would still be fashionable. If He's not going to grant them some miracles, afflict their enemies with hemorrhoids, and help their favorite sports teams win the big game, there isn't going to be any faith to speak of.
Damn, IOZ -- neither you nor Youtube can spell "Michael." Hosty pudding, I mean hasty posting, indeed.
We were sent a man who preached a message of loveSurvey says...!
"Appeals to "Judeo-Christian" theology are particularly disingenuous in any argument about god as a thoroughly transcendent entity, because in the Jewish tradition, he is anything but."
This is wrong. The "Jewish tradition" consists of far more than the "Tanak" and actually ends up, generally speaking, with a far more transcendent notion of God than much of either eastern or western Christianity. Making an argument about the Jewish tradition based solely on the Bible is a common mistake, but a significant one nonetheless.
Maimonides, for instance, states as one of his "13 Articles of Faith" that God is incorporeal, and that's only the tip of the theological iceberg for him; one of the names for God which he (and others) often use is "Ein sof," meaning without end, and certainly not an entity of the sort depicted in the Bible.
Anyway, I think that most arguments about God are singularly unproductive for all involved - but we should at least try not to be historically wrong about things.
You know what IOZ, you're my hero, but today you can go fuck yourself.
"Stupid and literal-minded atheists" might have been a slip of the quotation marks (or whatever), but that inclusive "second-rate doxologists" gives the lie.
Fuck the patriarchal, authoritarian Americo-Fascists for conjuring such an embarrassing, enabling, sky fairy. And fuck you too for giving these losers the cover of equanimity. You'll never convince me that the Eagletons of this world have their counterparts in (e.g.) PZ Myers or Richard Dawkins. An entire post aligning these so-called 'new religionists' as equally absurd counterparts to the the 'new atheists' is almost too ridiculous for words.
"Judeo-Christian theology," or whatever you want to call it, does an awful lot to prop up current authoritarian structures. Why give these losers cover from their critics? PZ, Dawkins--whatever else you say about them, these guys feel like allies to me. Just saying.
singularly unproductive...Tee hee.
well played hiltfredus. well played.
The creedal declaration "I believe in God" is a statement of action and will; it is performative rather than assertive.Dude, since when? I admit I only know about Christian beliefs through my family and their friends at church, but I've never actually met a Christian who didn't think of god as an actual entity that exists somewhere and does things independent of human belief.
I've never understood this argument that it's up to Hitchens and Dawkins and everybody else to engage this version of Christianity that nobody really believes in or understands.
You know, at least the fundamentalists are willing to explain in clear simple language what they actually believe in and what their beliefs are supposed to accomplish.
Guys like O'Hehir defend themselves by hiding behind a wall of vagueness. They deflect any argument by saying, "Oh, that's not what I mean by god" without ever bothering to explain what they do mean when they talk about god.
It's extremely frustrating.
"The new religionists... have transcended their god out of existence, eliminating one by one any discernible quality or attribute that might be observationally, empirically, or logically challenged. God is just, like, the universe, man."
Whenever I hear one of these shills for religion arguing this line - that the 'truth claims' of a given creed don't matter, what's important is the act of belief, the ritual, the community, yadda yadda - I wonder: did the Unitarians take over the country while I wasn't looking? Because I was raised a Unitarian, and I don't remember it being a real aggressive or dynamic denomination. Did I miss the master plan for world domination when I was daydreaming through the sermons?
(Ancient Tom Lehrer joke: 'How do you get a Unitarian to move out of your neighborhood? Burn a question mark on his lawn!')
furman, you're not getting all fucking kabbalist and shit here, are you?
Um, no.
I am, however, getting all historically accurate and shit, though. So to that end, it's worth noting that IOZ is wrong in his description of the "Jewish tradition" and what it consists of.
"but that this strain of post-Enlightenment atheism cannot comprehend the character of religious faith at all."
Of course we can't, it makes no fucking sense.
Well furman, you're right, but at the same time, by your definition the Albigensian heresy is part of the Christian Tradition. I like me some Sephirot as much as the next guy--that shit is cool--but it's not exactly in the bar mitzvah curriculum for most of us. Besides which, the sages claimed to have identified the Sephirot only through careful reading of the Tanak.
Nevertheless, I'll accept the corrective, and expand my claim to the Jewish Mystics, whose Limitless Light Without End is likewise well on its way to transcending the deity right out of a definition.
pz meyers needs a wedgie something fierce.
Well, I'm unclear why you think my comment was supposed refer primarily to mystics (it wasn't) - and Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith are in fact part of the bar mitzvah curriculum (generally speaking, I mean). To say nothing of the fact that we recite them every freaking Friday night.
So while I guess the Sefirot are cool if you're into that sort of thing, that's not really my (or Maimonides') point - which was just that although the God of the Hebrew Bible is certainly an anthropomorphic kind of guy, that's by no means representative of the notion of God throughout the history of Judaism.
Hey furman, the "ein sof" is straight out of the Zohar.
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