Monday, May 04, 2009

Slaughterhouse Five

I was struck by an article that I was reading the other day talking about the fact that the British, during World War II, when London was being bombed to smithereens, had 200 or so detainees. And Churchill said, "we don't torture," when the -- the entire British -- all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat. And -- and -- and the reason was that Churchill understood, you start taking shortcuts, and over time, that corrodes what's -- what's best in a people.

-Barack Obama

We don't torture.

-George W. Bush
We can perhaps forgive President Obama for ignoring The London Cage. Probably just a few bad apples anyway. (Churchill was, on the other hand, infamously bloodthirsty when it came to "primitive tribes" and other subjects of the empire. Gas the Kurds, torture the Kikuyu, and so on.) Look, the Allies firebombed Dresden; America nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, pace John Stewart. We would be wise to establish a rule that appealing to the leaders of chief belligerents in a vast global war will not result in clear moral direction. The question of who did or did not commit atrocities during the Second World War rather hops over the fact that The Second World War was an atrocity that superseded any of its component parts. There is a point at which this contest to name the greatest restraint in the face of the mostest evil skips directly to farce. During WWII, a bunch of terrible, brutal, vastly powerful men made terrible, brutal, and largely exigent decisions as they hurled millions of men and billions of tons of matériel at each other. Yes, the Nazis were very bad, but so was Stalin, and so was Chiang Kai-Shek. How do you even craft a moral equation? Were 6 million European Jews worth 20 million Soviets? It is a conflagration totally devoid of moral lessons or principles--just horror, pure horror, and destruction. Hauling out our bloody ancestors as paragons against which we measure our own perversions is a losing proposition, whether we grapple with it truthfully or, like Obama, deploy it dishonestly in the service of prevarication.

23 comments:

Mr.Fundamental said...

lulz

Montag said...

Come on, Donny, they were threatening castration... etc.

ChrisWWW said...

At least you can say that the Nazis started it.

AlanSmithee said...

But Moooooom! He started it!

ChrisWWW said...

Believing in Just Wars doesn't necessitate excusing the crimes and excesses of the "good" guys.

IOZ said...

Just War, like Catholicism, is an overvalued antique that reveals itself upon closer examination as just so much tacky bric-a-brac.

bonecrusher said...

Torture is worse that murder. That's more or less the whole idea behind it.

g-nome said...

Seriously dude, you're unreal. If you had a super long nose I'd assume you were the best swordsman in all gay Paree.

The Promiscuous Reader said...

Something just occurred to me. I thought Obama doesn't want to dwell on the past, but to look forward to the future. So why does he keep dredging it up, however inaccurately?

IOZ said...

It's like the great man said: If we do not forget history, we are condemned to remember it.

SteveB said...

[Knoechlein's] complaint was taken seriously by War Office officials, who considered whether to convene an inquiry. They eventually decided against this, on the grounds that this would mean delaying Knoechlein's execution. There was no legal precedent for this, one official noted, besides which "any court of inquiry into these allegations would be futile".


Now there's some lookin' forward rather than backward.

Anonymous said...

The Just War is basically the core component of American Exceptionalism, so of course Americans on both sides of the aisle want to believe in it so badly. Fuck, WWII is our justification for all the bullshit we do, as if whatever good we might have done mitigates every other shitty, vicious, cowardly act we've carried out as a nation since its inception.

ChrisWWW clearly believes in the bright shining lie that is the Just War, particularly Dubya Dubya 2, which is the war in which America went from spindly limbed Steve Rogers to ass-kicking virile Captain America. He probably believes Israel should get to do whatever the fuck they want in perpetuity because of the Holocaust too. These are the kind of people who constitute the mainstream of American political thought. Pathetic, eh?

TGGP said...

Larison discusses "the dangers of precedent" here.

At least you can say that the Nazis started it.The war generally, yes. But strategic bombing specifically was begun by the Brits and perfected by Uncle Sam. The Luftwaffe's purpose was to assist ground troops, and even Guernica was tactical bombing (not that it's worth anything to all the Spaniards killed).

Anonymous, I have the same feelings about "the good war" which is why I consider it so important that we confront it.

The Promiscuous Reader said...

It's like the great man said: If we do not forget history, we are condemned to remember it.I love that. It's engraved on the Lincoln Memorial isn't it?

Cüneyt said...

Prom: "I thought Obama doesn't want to dwell on the past, but to look forward to the future. So why does he keep dredging it up, however inaccurately?"

Most people's glorious future is often built atop fictional histories. We are scared of change, and so in order for the non-radical to do what is impressive, he must believe that it has been done before.

Of course, I'm not saying that Obama truly wants to escape history or accomplish new things, but I am speaking as much of the liberal mind as I am of the case in point.

hv said...

dude, it's Jon Stewart.

Anonymous said...

"I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." - Curtis LeMay

SteveB said...

I know, I know, the ends don't justify the means, but given that bullshit is what politicians produce, I think it's worth noting that this particular line of bullshit is in service of an argument that we shouldn't torture people. A little different than the bullshit put out by the previous administration, which was arguing that we should torture people.

Montag said...

bullshit is bullshit, SteveB.

we torture. this is only a case of Obamna having the decency to lie to us about it.

Cüneyt said...

Steve, I get your point, and I sympathize, but come on. Obama's saying that we mustn't torture--on pain of nothing in particular. God, it's like he was born yesterday. Amnesty for Nixon only made more Nixons, and torture, I assure you, is still going on. And will so long as it's decriminalized.

Ha. Think of that. Obama thinks that smoking reefer should be punished, but torture?

The Promiscuous Reader said...

A little different than the bullshit put out by the previous administration, which was arguing that we should torture people. Actually, no. The previous administration denied that what it did was torture; which undermines your argument, because even Bush and Cheney and Rice paid lip service to the unacceptability of torture. And Obama, despite or because of his persistence with this meme, is doing exactly the same thing: well, waterboarding is bad, but aggressive interrogation (which includes techniques that constitute torture to people who aren't Presidents of the US) is okay, according to the US Army Manual, and anyway, we'll just render people to Bagram and other places where dusky Muslims will do the torture for us, under our supervision.

The Promiscuous Reader said...

Oh, and Of course, I'm not saying that Obama truly wants to escape history ...That's okay. I am. He's even trying to escape his own history. He used to know better, and has worked very hard to get his memory under proper control. He controls the past, controls the present, and he who controls the present controls the future.

Cüneyt said...

Your mix-up (intentional?) of Orwell's adage is actually quite appropriate. He controls the present, and that's enough to work toward some future of one's partial making. But no, he has to sell to his fanbase the nonsense of some return to American ideals.

Do we need a glorious past in order to justify some marginally better future? No, we don't. But evidently, all politicians believe in myths for the proles, and it makes me fucking sick.