Who Is IOZ?: Jus in bello

Wednesday, July 29, 2009

Jus in bello

The reason that the 9/11 Truth Movement, specifically, is ignored as thoroughly as possible is that in order actually to debunk its various absurd conclusions, you must engage in a whole troubling, complex, and hidden (if in plain sight) history of post-war American neocolonial policy throughout the Middle East and Islamic world, so that while one one hand one can ultimately conclude that shape-shiftying-Annunaki-stargod-reptilian-alien Dick "Dick" Cheney did not actually fly holographic planes into buildings rigged for controlled demolition in a Reichstag-fire moment preceding the round-up of citizens and their mass relocation to FEMA-run concentration camps, on the other hand your Ward Churchills were basically right when they said that 9/11 represented "chickens coming home to roost." I mean, let's just put it right out there. If we are going to pretend that there is such a thing as just war, legitimate violence in self-defense, etc., then the attacks of 9/11 were more morally defensible than the American invasion of Iraq. Needless to say, these are not the sorts of propositions that nice liberals want to talk about in WaPo online chats.

29 comments:

Cüneyt said...: I'm perpetually amazed at the backflips some people are capable of on the matter. It's like history doesn't even exist for them save how they've been taught. I know a liberal who was explaining to me just what they think about the last twelve years. It was a mixture of popular ignorance and what passes for historical instruction in the military and it read like a fucking Dan Brown novel, though even simpler.

Basically, Clinton was more responsible for 9/11 than the Bush administration and left America undefended (say that to the Branch Davidians and the various folks we bombed/helped to bomb, right?); the Bush administration was stupid, but not that much to blame in Iraq, because "the president doesn't control that much;" and this person voted for Obama because he was going to help the working class and get us out of Iraq, but not too quickly, because apocalypse for the Iraqi women and children would/will occur. So basically it's the Friedman unit and so forth--we're done when we're done.

And I repeat: this is a self-described liberal. My conservative friends have the decency, usually, to just commit basic fallacies like generalize from brief anecdotes insane observations about the whole of human experience. You know, basic philosophy.; 9:52 AM
SteveB said...: There must be a lot of Truthers out there who are seething with jealousy at all the attention their fellow conspiratorialists in the Birther movement are getting. "Hey, when is someone who matters going to take the time to thoroughly debunk our crackpot theories? No fair!"; 10:01 AM
TGGP said...: Justice in war is distinct from just war.; 10:54 AM
Montag said...: it's easier to say the 9-11 attacks were "senseless," and leave it at that.; 11:03 AM
Anonymous said...: You're underestimating people's capacity for doublethink. I don't think mainstream types have any problem going into detail debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories and using reason and logic when reason and logic are on their side, They just flip off the logic circuits when it is convenient to do so.

Slightly off-topic, but I once saw a writer in the New Yorker struggling to come up with an analogy from US history for the Israel-Palestine conflict. Rather than use the blindingly obvious one (whites against Indians), he chose to compare it to the Union occupation of the Confederate states after the Civil War--the Palestinian terrorists were the KKK. See, that's how it's done.

Donald Johnson; 11:20 AM
Cüneyt said...: God, does it make me a bad person and a hypocrite that I have a thousand stories ready at a moment's notice about stupid things people have said to me? I need to build a shack, don't I?; 11:39 AM
Gridlock said...: Oh no you dih-unt!; 12:07 PM
lucid said...: um... so more than half of my fellow residents of this city believe that Dick Cheney flew holographic airplanes into buildings? Really?

Most of us 'truthers' are actually more concerned about finding out what really happened and holding those resopnsible accountable. There is simply too much history of involvement of intelligence elements of this country with 'terrorism' and too much evidence of collusion between known CIA fronts [like the Florida flight school] and the hijackers to outright dismiss a larger conspiracy. Did it involve the executive branch and holographic planes? Uh, no. Will we ever get the full story? Probably not. But I think it is disingenuous to dismiss those who would like the truth.; 1:02 PM
Anonymous said...: The 9/11 commission report was a sham; that doesn't mean a missile hit the pentagon. But its a useful equivocation for anyone committed to defending the political status quo; 1:16 PM
IOZ said...: You thought Bunny'd been kidnapped and you could use it as a pretext to make some money disappear. All you needed was a sap to pin it on, and you'd just met me. You thought, hey, a deadbeat, a loser, someone the square community won't give a shit about.; 1:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Well aren't you?; 2:16 PM
drip said...: The thing about Iraq that continues to slay me is the part where the looting (see Daneeka, ante), the gifts to contractors, and the planeloads of shrink wrapped C-notes can't get the job done fast enough, so Bush says, "sheeeit. can't somebody push a button or sumpin and get the rest of this swag where it belongs?" And it happens! It's not like the movie!. They push a button and all the swag goes to a few banks! The privatized the US treasury and they didn't even have to cut off somebody's toe to pretend that Bunny was in trouble. They just pushing the button in the 92d month of the job until it went "click!"; 3:39 PM
Jenny said...: So if Osama Bin Laden and any who helped plan the attacks were ever tried, you think they could get acquitted based on self-defense?

And you're right: Bin laden himself said they attacked because of our support for Israel and bases in the middle east.; 6:08 PM
hv said...: The reason that the 9/11 Truth Movement, specifically, is ignored as thoroughly as possible is that in order actually to debunk its various absurd conclusions, you must engage in a whole troubling, complex, and hidden (if in plain sight) history of post-war American neocolonial policy throughout the Middle East and Islamic world...

No, you're wrong. As Donald Johnson says above, it is very possible for most people to debunk the absurd conclusions of the 9/11 Truth Movement without even acknowledging such there ever was or currently exists such a thing as American imperialism (and if it does exists, it can only be a "benevolent" form of imperialism), let alone acknowledge America's very obvious neocolonial meddling in the Middle-East post WW-II after it emerged as a superpower and realized the strategic importance of the vast oil-reserves there, or acknowledge the subsequent violence, death and destruction, and mass-murder of Arabs and Muslims resulting from American meddling in the Middle-East, direct and indirect, and from the actions of American client, colonial-settler state, Israel.

Again to paraphrase what Donald Johnson said, many of the people who hate the 9/11 Truth Movement are rabid right-wingers and they are perfectly capable of using reason and logic when it suits them.

Also, most Americans, even the supposed "moderate", "centrist", "non-ideological" group, etc, are ideologically trained to mythologize the American state, and to worship authority figures, especially state and government officials, and especially those higher up in the chain such as the President and Vice-President, who are treated as royalty. It seems Americans have forgotten, or perhaps never really embraced, the whole reason for the Enlightenment and the American revolution, which was precisely to reject this royalist, reverence for leaders and kings and authority figures.

I mean, all you have to do is look at the reverence with which American historians and pundits write and talk about Presidents, Vice Presidents and government officials to realize just how deep this sentiment and ideological training goes. In fact, this very anti-democratic trait of revering and worshiping authority figures, and automatically believing in the rightness and benevolence of your nation state/ government/"tribe" and in automatically assuming leaders, authority figures have the best of intentions until proven wrong runs so deep and is so universal across nations and people that it is probably intrinsic to human nature.

Anyway, my point is that the reason the 9/11 Truth Movement is treated the way it is is because most Americans can't wrap their minds around the idea that their state, government and leaders could deliberately behave immorally, or could ever harm their own citizens. For most people, such ideas are simply too preposterous to even consider.; 10:01 PM
Anonymous said...: Washington could have been king; 10:55 PM
Happy Jack said...: Washington could have been king

And if Adams had his way, George could have been His High Mightiness.; 11:46 PM
Betty White said...: I learned something today - I never knew the Truth movement was liberal, huh?

Just last night I was watching a Truth documentary on a Sky channel called 'Controversy TV' - it was 3 hrs long, I could only handle a half hour.

I never knew their arguments - jeez that is some tortured logic. When they started to speculate on the plane used to crash into the North tower as being a military plane, I had to change it.

Occam's Razor y'all - OBL has money/time/screws loose, he wants the US out of Saudi Arabia/deal a blow to US economy, pays a few 'followers' to take plane lessons and hijack 4 planes. IT Fucking WORKS! 3 out of 4 planes hit their target, and the US leaves Saudi Arabia.
Fin.; 8:36 AM
SteveB said...: the reason the 9/11 Truth Movement is treated the way it is is because most Americans can't wrap their minds around the idea that their state, government and leaders could deliberately behave immorally, or could ever harm their own citizens.

I don't have any difficulty thinking the US government is responsible for the deaths of 5,000 Americans and a million Iraqis, but I find the 9-11 "Truth" movement ridiculous. What's wrong with me?; 9:33 AM
lucid said...: I find it amazing that most here speak of the 'truth' movement as if it is some unified front and that everyone in it espouses preposterous claims about missiles and missing planes. I guess I shouldn't find that amazing as most Americans can't wrap their minds around the idea that their state, government and leaders could deliberately behave immorally, or could ever harm their own citizens - even those that claim they can.

You really should actually do some research on the movement before you characterize it as such. Having lived 1/2 mile from the trade centers on that morning and knowing first hand that the government and MSM versions of what happened were bullshit, I spent years researching it [gave up on finding answers about 5 years ago]. Have I come to any definitive conclusions, no. Have there been absolutely ridiculous claims made by people like Mike Ruppert, David Ray Griffin and others, yes. But even within the preposterous scenarios there are a lot of objectively verifiable facts which present a locus of truth.

All the 'truth' movement [if you can call it that] really wants is a thorough investigation because the accepted conspiracy theory about that day is just as preposterous as the ones that think Dick Cheney used his death ray.; 10:32 AM
SteveB said...: I'd agree that "Hey, we just want an investigation" is the fallback position of most Truthers when they're confronted with people who don't seem to be willing to buy the full package. But all you have to do is nod along in agreement and they'll bring out the real stuff, about how Marvin Bush being briefly on the board of the Trade Center explains how "they" could pack the buildings full of C4 without anyone noticing.

But yeah, I just can't imagine that the U.S. government would do anything so evil. That must be the problem.; 11:58 AM
lucid said...: Last comment on the subject as I gave up arguing about it years ago, but again you fail to grasp my point. You refer to people who question the officially accepted conspiracy theory as if they are a single insane entity in order to reductively dismiss the entire question by holding up the most preposterous claims made by some individuals who question. We aren't. And that rhetorical strategy is bullshit.; 12:26 PM
hv said...: I don't have any difficulty thinking the US government is responsible for the deaths of 5,000 Americans and a million Iraqis, but I find the 9-11 "Truth" movement ridiculous. What's wrong with me?

Maybe I wasn't clear but I am not a 9/11 Truther. It is perfectly reasonable to reject most of what the 9/11 Truth Movement says based on the lack of evidence for their claims, and because their narratives and claims just don't make sense.

What I was trying to say is that most people who reject the 9/11 Truth Movement aren't even aware of the various arguments and claims the 9/11 Truth Movement makes. They just instinctively reject it because the notion that US government and their leaders could do anything that evil is just too preposterous for them to take seriously. And perhaps they're right to this extent: that the US government, consisting of Americans, would ever consider killing that many of its own citizens in such a large-scale terrorist attack is just not plausible. The American government is perfectly capable of all sorts of evil, vicious, venal acts.. but mostly against other countries, people, and races, all of them those lowly brown people from the 3rd world, making it easier for Americans within the government who commit that violence, thuggery, and mass-murder to rationalize than it is to rationalize those same actions against their own (mostly white) citizens.

To get back to the main point: IOZ claims that the reason the 9/11 Truth Movement is treated the way it is because addressing its claims would involve going into the uncomfortable, ugly truths about America foreign policy in the Middle-East. I just don't see the connection. People reject the 9/11 Truth Movement for all sorts of reasons, many of them valid, and none of them really requires having to delve into American foreign policy in the Middle-East. One can reject the 9/11 Truth Movement and believe 9/11 was caused by irrational, fanatical Arab and Muslims who simply hate America for its freedom and its "way of life".; 12:58 PM
SteveB said...: You refer to people who question the officially accepted conspiracy theory as if they are a single insane entity in order to reductively dismiss the entire question by holding up the most preposterous claims made by some individuals who question.

No, my claim is that many people who "question the officially accepted conspiracy theory" tailor what they're saying depending on their audience, so it's not so easy to divide the group into crazy and non-crazy.

For example: Kevin Barrett, who earned his 15 minutes of fame when one of our stupider Republican state legislators made a fuss because Kevin had a part-time, one-semester teaching contract at the UW, while also being a public proponent of "9-11 truth." I've heard Kevin put out the "We're just asking for an investigation, nobody really knows what happened" line on some occasions, and I've also heard him claim that David Ray Griffen knows exactly what happened on other occasions.

I'm not saying you're doing that yourself, but there's a reason why I now smell bullshit when someone says "Hey, we're just asking for an investigation."

But since you're sincere in just wanting an investigation, I'll give you some helpful advice: Your main problem isn't skeptics like me, but the other people who also want an investigation but also happen to be insane. My impression of "9-11 Truth" is that it's the political movement that can't say no. Everyone's welcome under the big tent, because there's no ability to draw a line and say, "I'm sorry, but that shit's just too crazy for us." I don't see how you fix that, so it looks like you're not getting your investigation.

But you already knew that.; 6:49 PM
SteveB said...: IOZ claims that the reason the 9/11 Truth Movement is treated the way it is because addressing its claims would involve going into the uncomfortable, ugly truths about America foreign policy in the Middle-East. I just don't see the connection.

I think IOZ was trying to explain why one set of crazy beliefs (birtherism) gets the privilege of a full public debunking, while another set of crazy beliefs (trutherism) doesn't. If you don't buy his theory, what's your explanation?

Personally, I think it's simply that "truthers" tend to come from the left, and "birthers" tend to come from the right, and crazy right-wing views always have a much easier time getting into the corporate media. Probably because the line between sane and insane is blurrier over on the right, and so it's harder to dismiss right-wing craziness as "too crazy to be politically important."; 7:00 PM
Charles F. Oxtrot said...: To those who sneeringly use the term "conspiracy theorist" as a denigrator leaving the sneerer feeling superior and witty...

...every single team sport requires conspiracy, and every pre-set play is a conspiracy theory.

Amazing! Conspiracy theorists in sports!

Yeah, we all should believe the Official Story of the Events of 9/11/2001, as told to us by Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton. Because, you know, those guys are HONEST and they care about truth!

Jesus fucking christ.; 12:15 AM
Charles F. Oxtrot said...: @ Steve B --

1) Please don't mistake your frequency of self-assured comments for the status of being correct, or reality-bound.

2) my prior comment @ 12:15 am is aimed at you, among other people. Remember, Steverino... you're clueless, no matter how often you comment with an air of self-assured rectitude.; 12:17 AM
Charles F. Oxtrot said...: hv said --

Anyway, my point is that the reason the 9/11 Truth Movement is treated the way it is is because most Americans can't wrap their minds around the idea that their state, government and leaders could deliberately behave immorally, or could ever harm their own citizens. For most people, such ideas are simply too preposterous to even consider.

SteveB would do well to read that passage, and read it again, and then read it again... and again... and again... until he finally realizes that hv is talking about SteveB and people who behave as does SteveB, claiming "skepticism" about "conspiracy theories."

SteveB is eager to believe that the Saintly, Noble Democrats would prevent those Horrific, Evil Elephants from EVER doing anything immoral.

I mean, sending kids off to murder innocent Iraqis, that's SO TOTALLY NOT IMMORAL, right Steverino?; 12:22 AM
Charles F. Oxtrot said...: another hv gem --

One can reject the 9/11 Truth Movement and believe 9/11 was caused by irrational, fanatical Arab and Muslims who simply hate America for its freedom and its "way of life".

you mean like Jon Stewart, or Keith Olbermann, or Glenn Greenwald?

especially Glenn Greenwald. Wee Glennie was eager to say 9/11/2001 happened because of evil al Qaeda thugs. Wee Glennie seems to have lost his supposedly critical legal analytic mind on this, and about every other subject he opines about publicly, in writing, on his former blog or at Salon.

Must be a sweet gig, to be Wee Glennie. Or to be SteveB. I mean, who needs fuckin' reality when there's all those sweet self-confidence-boosting fantasies we can entertain and promote!; 12:26 AM
Jenny said...: A story of how the U.S. government somehow managed to sneak in powerful explosives into the WTC without getting caught it also a fantasy. You are a sad, angry man, Charles.; 7:00 PM

Wednesday, July 29, 2009

Jus in bello

29 comments:

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