There is a certain charm to the response, which moves feelingly, but could've used a continuity editor. In the first paragraph, it accuses us (the, uh, Who Is IOZ? community) of campus liberalism, which is understandable, given our fondness for tapestries on the dorm room walls. Of course, this is as far from a den of revolution, self-proclaimed or otherwise, as you can get, seeing as we counsel that the revolution is useless, defeat inevitable. The condition of man is to be ruled. Annoyance is the ultimate resistance. And cetera. I personally am not ready to fight for Latin America. I simply counsel that the United States, a corporation in which I am just a poor, extremely minor shareholder, not fight for Latin America either, indeed, that we leave Latin America alone.
In the second paragraph, Mr. Loomis declares that this aggression will not stand, man, and proclaims that the principle of preventing rightist rollback of leftist political gains to be "more important than this particular situation in Honduras," a curious complaint from a man who just a half-sentence before was parenthetically castigating his critics for their ignorance of "actual conditions in Latin America." Well, is it the particular or the universal that hold the day, the principle or the actual? I suspect the question remains unresolved in Mr. Loomis' brain. I suspect the question hasn't occurred to him. Meanwhile, the more pressing question, which motivated my first little foray, goes thunderously unanswered: I am still not sure what it means to say the coup cannot stand. Send in the Marines? Place your suggestions in the box.
In the third paragraph, Loomis ventures that I and others react poorly to criticisms of Castro and Chavez. Allowing that such reactionaries exist, so what? Whatever else you might say about those two, they are leftist, Latin-American-ish presidents . . . though presumably not the sort whose ousters Loomis would personally prohibit from standing. Or are they? In any case, it doesn't seem germane.
After this we return to Loomis' fanciful "world," whatever or whomever that may be, and his insistence that it not "allow the coup to succeed," again without pausing to take a breath and suggest just what this world is supposed to do about it. He then notes that President Zelaya is not "a real progressive leader," although Loomis, gosh, sure wishes that were the case, but in the meantime, what're'ya gonna do, vote Republican? He concludes with a clarion call. What happens in Honduras has no effect on the rest of the world, unless it happens, in which case, it will affect the rest of the world. Now that's clarity you can change your belief in.
Wooly-headed sentiments like these usually herald a dire case of the neoconservatives, for eventually the revolution can only ever be served by sending in the Marines. Meanwhile, the non-revolutionaries here at Who Is IOZ? advise only that the US stay the fuck away from Latin America, letting them fight their own wars and revolutions, rather than forever seeking to mold other peoples to our passing political whims.
Wednesday, July 01, 2009
Stay Out of Tegucigalpa, Lebowski
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
40 comments:
it accuses us (the, uh, Who Is IOZ? community)
We're not literally your community. We're the Little IOZ Urban Achievers - inner city children of promise but without the necessary means for a higher education.
His last bit about the irrelevance of Honduras that contradicts his entire thesis, as well as the paragraph that hosts it, is the best.
Different mothers?
Don't you just love casuistry?
If I could follow up on my previous comment, could you clarify what you mean by the US staying the fuck away from Latin America? In this particular case, the US seems to have lined up with the OAS and with pretty much every Latin American government in calling for a restoration of the President. This is hardly sending in the marines, but it would seem to meet that it clearly constitutes "intervention" into Honduran affairs.... At risk of being called a neoconservative (and, again, actual neoconservatives have been vocal in their support of the right wing Honduran coup) does this seem like sensible activity to you on the part of the US and the OAS?
Look, Robert. Have you ever heard of Vietnam?
In this particular case, the US seems to have lined up with the OAS and with pretty much every Latin American government in calling for a restoration of the President. This is hardly sending in the marines
dude, to point out the obvious (in a non-prickish/snarky way) ineffectual international pressure is the gateway drug of foreign wars.
PS - blawgworld pissing contests are fucking stupid. IOZ, you are better than this.
A sensible activity? It seems like futile posturing to no meaningful end to me, but is in any case not really relevant to Loomis' contention that the US must not allow the coup "to stand."
Groovy; I get the ineffectual pressure/futile posturing (although I suspect that it'll be a touch more consequential than you think, and I don't think that such posturing inevitably or even usually leads to foreign wars), and I appreciate the critique re: "allowing the coup to stand"; at best it's imprecise. And I especially appreciate the point about blogworld pissing contests.
I would suggest that there's no "virgin" situation here; if the US sat absolutely mum it would be read as de facto support of the coup, and thus "intervention", consequential or no. Given that, I'm not unhappy with the ineffectual posturing, whether or not it's futile.
A question for Mr. Farley. On LGM you (plural) routinely mock the “emboldening” defense for American intervention. At least when spouted by right-wingers. Erik Loomis has made it abundantly clear he views this as an “emboldening” moment; let the coup stand and the dominos will fall; intervene and something positive will spring forth all across the region.
You seem to at least tacitly agree with him in your first comment on the last post ”But then here he gets accused of being a neoconservative for expressing concern that Latin American right wingers will be emboldened by the success of a right wing coup in Honduras.”
Why is one risible and the other defensible?
Mr. Fundamental: If you draw any more scars or band aids on my Bob Marley poster I'm filing a formal complaint with the IOZ University Dorm administrator.
What happens in Honduras, stays in Honduras.
Wait, but IOZ, if we're all just inevitably subject to being ruled, why not just let the rulers decide whether or not to invade Honduras? Seems, I dunno, revolutionary to suggest we do otherwise.
Anon,
Good question; I'd say because the latter refers to a far more specific community than the former. The emboldening argument as applied generally to US foreign policy usually runs something like this; if we don't attack Iran then North Korea will be emboldened to do something, or vice versa. I think this is nonsense; North Korea and Iran have their own reasons to do whatever they're going to do, and I doubt that they really pay that much attention to what's going on somewhere else.
It's true enough that right wingers in Latin America differ from country to country, and thus also have their own reasons for what they do, but it's also true that they have a fair amount in common; they speak the same language, come from broadly similar cultures, read the same newspapers, have participated in the same military training programs, communicate regularly, etc. Thus, I think it's far more likely that a right wing colonel in, say, Bolivia will pay attention to what's happening in Honduras, and draw lessons from it, than that a North Korean will draw anything relevant from US behavior towards Iran.
I actually don't have much problem if the Great American Finger-Wagglers for Democracy do a little clucking and tutting about the overthrow of a Duly Elected President; I won't even get excited if the US gummint issues a stiff note of protest. However....
1. Having inflated its wattles in a display of Moral Outrage, would that same gummint be down with Hugo Chavez reinstating the Honduran president at gunpoint?
2. If, having despaired of the efficacy of stiff notes of protest, the gummint itself decideralized to use the 82nd Airborne to reintroduce the rights of free Englishmen to Honduras, would it be prepared to offer the same intervention on behalf of Evo Morales were he to be overthrown in a right-wing coup?
3. If the new, less-legitimacy-in-every-bite government of Honduras tells the OAS/USA/UN/et al. to go piss up a rope, would the US gummint be willing to let it all go?
4. Why exactly does anybody think that the US gummint has a problem with this coup? Because it fucking said so?
I'm really getting lost on what the whole point of this discussion is, but it still appears to me that we have certain people in this country who will defend the Sacred Abstract Principles of Democracy over the actual lives and well-being of humans...provided those humans are in some other country.
You know, IOZ, over time it just gets funnier and funnier that every single liberal you bait--every one, without exception--falls back on some fevered variant of that moronic 'dormroom' stereotype as a riposte. You can almost elaborate the entire sociology of what they are from that little nubbin.
although I suspect that it'll be a touch more consequential than you think
how does international pressure lead to anything here? there is no impending foreign military intervention, so they have no need to act on the international pressure.
I would suggest that there's no "virgin" situation here; if the US sat absolutely mum it would be read as de facto support of the coup, and thus "intervention", consequential or no.
They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there
You'll either be a union man
Or objectively pro-fascist
or to quote Rush "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". I happen to think that non-choice choice has a better track-record than our attempts at improving other governments.
"The emboldening argument as applied generally to US foreign policy usually runs something like this; if we don't attack Iran then North Korea will be emboldened to do something, or vice versa." Mr.Farley
"If the world allows the Honduran coup to suceed, then right-wingers across Latin America will be emboldened to attempt coups of their own." Mr. Loomis
print that out, take it to the bathroom, and think each one through over a hearty dump. you've just failed Internet 101.
IOZ: “I simply counsel that the United States, a corporation in which I am just a poor, extremely minor shareholder, not fight for Latin America either, indeed, that we leave Latin America alone.”
Robert Farley: “if the US sat absolutely mum it would be read as de facto support of the coup, and thus "intervention", consequential or no.”
Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle."
"That's some catch, that catch-22," he observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.
"...self-proclaimed revolutionaries ready to fight for Latin America at any time...."
His name is Lebowski? Dude, that's your name!
"Wait, but IOZ, if we're all just inevitably subject to being ruled, why not just let the rulers decide whether or not to invade Honduras? Seems, I dunno, revolutionary to suggest we do otherwise."
You're not getting this whole BLAWG thing.
why not just let the rulers decide whether or not to invade Honduras
Good point. From here on, that decision is now up to the rulers.
(LOL)
Fuckin Germans. Nothin changes.
Seriously? Blawgs have to offer opinions about fucking Honduras now? Let me forward the proposition that not one single person waxing solemn about our obligations to Honduran democracy could have told you Zelaya's name or political orientation a week ago.
ding ding ding! I can't even place it on a map. I suppose they're brown people, though.
Pretty much all of my knowledge of Honduras is roughly where it is on a map, and that they've got a decent chance at qualifying for the World Cup. Gave the US team a game a couple of weeks ago.
Even if Honduras went the full Hitler Nazi, I don't think Poland has anything to worry about.
NYC- population 8.3mil, gross metropolitan product $1.13 trillion
Honduras- population 7.3mil, GDP 12.3 billion (NYC budget, 51 billion)
Why the righties want Honduras I have no idea. They'll eventually tire of municipal governance and give it back to a lefty to deal with the complaints at the DMV. The way it should be, righties ripping off the private sector and lefties ripping off the public sector- win win.
And right there you have your problem with the modern ideal of the state—once a few fucks get together and give the equivalent of a goat farming town its own flag and if the mayor goes nuts and the cops have to arrest him, a bunch of loons start braying about Threats to Democracy.
Tell you what, though, that really is a damn good soccer team they have. They gave us a better game than Spain did.
I'm regretting having linked to Volokh regarding the objectively pro-fascist when I could have waited a bit for Larison's take on the topic.
Didn't Honduras go to war with a neighbor due to a soccer match some years ago?
I should have also noted here that Philip Giraldi predicted what would happen in Honduras in advance. When he talks, folks should listen.
So let him make something plain. He doesn't like you sucking around, bothering his readers, IOZ. He doesn't like your jerk-off name. He doesn't like your jerk-off face. He doesn't like your jerk-off behavior, and he doesn't like you, jerk-off. Does he make himself clear?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_War
1969, Wikipedia seems to indicate that the results from WC qualifiers lit the match which made El Salvador and Honduras have a brief war.
Having inflated its wattles in a display of Moral Outrage, would that same gummint be down with Hugo Chavez reinstating the Honduran president at gunpoint?
Probably, in the same way it would be down with flying unicorns reinstating the Honduran president at hornpoint.
print that out, take it to the bathroom, and think each one through over a hearty dump. you've just failed Internet 101.
By using the word "usually," and then elaborating on how Latin America is a special case? Come on, Fundy, you're normally more surreal than this.
And lamentably, US Latin American virginity is indeed as irrevocably lost as Mark Sanford's. After our guvmint's idiotic flag-waving over the Venezuelan coup attempt, after the Contras, after Guatemala, after El Salvador, and especially after Pinochet, it's conceivable the presumption is that we still support the ouster of leftists by military force. So we at least have to say "Nuh-uh!" Fingers discreetly crossed as needed.
And maybe it's the handfuls of anti-cynicism pills I've been desperately shoveling in, but I still score official US tut-tutting over Honduras slightly higher than those on the (further) right who have slobbered about how the military coup was a defense of democracy. Which is a really low bar to set, but anti-cynicism pills only go so far.
from an email exchange with a friend yesterday:
friend: a proggle kid who used to work for the local weekly rag here popped up in IM yesterday and asked me if i tweet and would i tweet something to "create awareness" about that trial yesterday. uhhh no thanks man. he then asked if i would change my IM status with the message.
ugh.
me:I think that's how the Iraq War got started
now I have to get back to Mafia Wars.
I think I have some t-shirts that were made in Honduras.
And sometimes the "Mexicans" in the US are really Honduran.
I don't know anything else Honduras.
"non-choice choice has a better track-record than our attempts at improving other governments."
I'm stealing this for my next tee shirt design. Thanks TGGP, and the whole Who Is IOZ community.
ineffectual international pressure is the gateway drug of foreign wars.
Yeah, let's not forget how we got into that war with South Africa. I've never seen a bigger clusterfuck than that attempted amphibious landing on Long Beach in Cape Town. We lost a lot of good men over there - even more than when we foolishly parachuted the entire 82nd Airborne into Lhasa. Fucking Dalai Lama.
that's right SteveB, my bumper has Tibet's back yo!
"You're not getting this whole BLAWG thing."
You're not getting this whole JOKE thing.
the funniest thing about this, aside from the loomis' hilariously incoherent respone, is that the party we are supposed to support because he was removed from office in contravention of the document upon which Honduras' democracy is premised, was removed from office for acting in contravention of the document upon which Honduras' democracy is premised.
Fight for democracy!
Post a Comment