Wednesday, August 12, 2009

McThoughtProcess

Aside from the almost insanely, historically inaccurate implication that pre-industrial agrarian societies were consuming larger daily calorie loads because they were working so hard in the fields, what strikes most about Yglesias' encomium to market-based nutrition is that it marks him as the last Liberal on earth not to have read Michael Pollan's charming children's science text, The Omnivore's Dilemma, which can be read over a lunch hour. Well, he may not have read anything else written about food and agriculture in the last thirty years either.

If he had, he would understand that Fast Food is the business of selling unhealthy food. It's the business of delivering calories to consumers at higher margins than the nice little restaurant down the street. Food is expensive. Preparing fresh and healthy foods is expensive and time consuming. The industrial processes that turn corn, beef, and potatoes into "billions and billions served" do not produce healthy meals, or low calorie counts. They produce unhealthy meals with indigestible additives. They produce foodstuffs that are chemically engineered so as not to sate hunger as effectively as a nice bowl of pasta at the nice restaurant down the street, so that you will buy more. Fast food is the business of short-circuiting normal gustatory desires in order that you eat more of it. The marginal cost increases of increasing fast food serving sizes are less than the increase in revenue from tacking on an extra fifty cents or a dollar for a Supersize. Saying the the fast food industry is not inherently about selling unhealthy food is like saying that the petroleum industry is not about selling hydrocarbons; saying so because there are some "healthy" alternatives or nods in the direction of other people's national tastes is like saying the petroleum industry is not about selling hydrocarbons because you saw one of those ads that tells you BP means beyond petroleum.

(I am not inherently opposed to large-scale agriculture, although I am opposed to the deranging influence of state subsidy on what gets produced and what does not. Industrialized production of grain staples combined with far more localized production and consumption of produce and meats seems to me to be something worth pursuing, at least until Roland Emmerich's 2012 destroys the world . . . or, at least, America.)

In any case, the conviction that consumers want something, ergo The Market produces it, is fine for undergraduate economics, but here in the fourth dimension there is a remarkable science of advertising, which unlike its chiropractic counterpart, psychology, has demonstrably proved itself capable not only of regulating human behavior, but of creating and modifying human desires, and it is this science in partnership with food science that guarantees many more years of fat people eating thousand-calorie burger combos. America. Fuck. Yeah.

47 comments:

Cüneyt said...

Seeing as though advertising is based in psychology, your last sentence isn't as clean as it could be. But we all make our throw-away digs on favored targets.

That said, it's a spot-on observation. Advertising, for me, is where that "enlightened self-interest" falls apart. And it's as common in civic matters as food preparation, and when you throw in ads' effects on sexual appetite, you basically have all of society under the influence of marketing.

Rumpleforeskin said...

Those are good burgers, Walter.

IOZ said...

advertising is based in psychology

Sure, as chemistry is based in alchemy.

Dunc said...

Good analogy. The principle distinction between advertising and psychology is that the former has an implacable, laser-like focus on measurable effects on the bottom line.

Cüneyt said...

I know you've got a lot invested in this stance, so I'm not going to disagree with what you've put forth. There's a lot of pseudoscience--past and present--in psychology. We can bash the applications and the theories that were and are nonsense, and by and large I'll agree with you. But I'm not interested in a sweeping condemnation of an entire field of related disciplines just because there are some kooks in different avenues.

Likewise, I'm not going to throw out Pavlov (or, as one of your zealous fellow thinkers condemned a bit ago, Skinner), neurology, and psychiatry, just because kids get prescribed too much Ritalin and because Freud falsified his records or because this man fucked his clients (a long list, that) or because this other fellow tried to seed the clouds with mythical sexual energy.

And you must know that the distinction between alchemy and chemistry was never so clear as you suggest. Science produces a lot of dead ends and bad answers to good questions. But as advertising and public relations are very much a part of psychology, or psychology a part of them, we might say that there are at least two rational exhibits of the science. Rational and horrifically destructive, perhaps...

G said...

I think Yglesias was referring to to hunter-gatherers, who did expend more energy than agrarian peasants, and us, if we're not obese. At least, that's what I found out according to five minutes of googling.

What that has to do with Mcdonalds however, I have little idea. They ate more because they got hungry in proportion to their exertions.

IOZ said...

Yo, Cüneyt, I don't believe I said the distinction was "clear." That must be some--what would a psychologist call it?--projection. Indeed, out of the patently bogus discipline of alchemy grew the modern physical sciences, as out of the patently bogus discipline of psychology grew the ad man, with some help from art school.

TGGP said...

Both Yglesias and an intelligent blogger (see what I did there, a-hyuk) suspect that advertising doesn't work. Precisely because I have greater faith in the market, I disagree, though I think it may just serve to make some brand names more salient than others and thus be a waste in terms of social welfare.

ERM said...

Wrong. The fast food chains are apparently actually in the business of real estate. The toxic food seems to just be a nice bonus for us.

http://exiledonline.com/desert-dispatch-mcmansions-for-mcdonalds/

Cüneyt said...

But alchemy wasn't patently bogus. A lot of new sciences are muddled with nonsense and villainy. There are also points of insight and accomplishment.

But I must say that you are correct; you never said that the distinction was "clear." You did, however, compare them, and now declare that alchemy was patently bogus, whereas modern science is--I presume--not. As for where the nonsense ends and the wisdom begins, who knows? I would say that they are mixed, and particularly mixed in new sciences. I suppose rationality just sprung from superstition and madness like Athena from Zeus's skull.

As for projection, it's always possible, but then I'm someone who believes in some frequently occurring mental tendencies and mechanisms. But I'm not trying to read your mind. I'm just saying that I know several experimental psychologists or people with experience in that field whose work was not so haphazard and arbitrary as has been repeatedly asserted here. I do not deny the madness of those you've encountered, and have encountered enough madness and quackery on my own. But I will not tar other, rational, and principled people who employ various methods to study the workings of the brain.

IOZ said...

Alchemy wasn't patently bogus? Do tell. Maybe Newton succeeded in his real project after all.

Cüneyt said...

Well, if you believe that alchemy was at least partially responsible for the development of chemistry, at least in producing similar rigors and use of equipment, then I would say that that means it's not patently bogus, though certainly almost entirely so.

Similar cases to this exist, and a better example might be astrology and astronomy. The practices may remain, while the principles change. In some cases, nothing remains; the entire science reinvents itself and rejects its idiot past.

dhex said...

i think the argument about advertising would be more effective were it more effective in practice. even in the world of shit food sellers, there are winners and losers. it's not as if he who advertises most laughs last in every case, or even in most cases. sometimes they just spend a fuckton of money and have little to show for it.

IOZ said...

Chiropractors learn anatomy. Lens-grinding preceded optics. Aristotle made observations. Nevertheless . . .

Anonymous said...

Having never read Yglesias until your posts referencing him this one serves to prove that he is not very bright and has very little understanding of America or Americans, the corporate landscape, agribusiness, and good old fashioned addiction.

Keifus said...

On advertising and psychology, I sometimes wonder if the former is a self-fulfilling validation of the latter. I mean, maybe there are men out there who do associate towers and racecars with getting their morning stiffy, or see bathtubs as chalices of feminine desire, or whatever. Not because of any natural, logical, or scientifically observed connection, but because those symbols have been marketed so damn hard.

And wrong blog and all, but if you want to cultivate a true loathing for the particolored advertising arm of the clown, try having kids. I trace their continued success directly to putting toys in the fucking happy meals.

I'm partial to the early inquirers myself, even if all they had to fall back on was witchcraft and gut instinct. Maybe I like them because of that. (Which isn't to say that I don't pity the poor bastard who gets drug in for a bleeding.)

Solar Hero said...

Anonymous said:

"[Yglesias] is not very bright and has very little understanding of America or Americans, the corporate landscape, agribusiness, and good old fashioned addiction."

Not quite right. Yglesias went to Harvard, where they train very bright people to understand those things in a way that makes them seem rational and/or natural, so that they can better propagandize for them. Matthew was obviously a very good student.

Solar Hero said...

There is a distinction between clinical psychologists who do peer-reviewed research and submit falsifiable hypotheses and counseling psychologists, who are really just today's priests.

Behavior can be empirically studied, the "psyche" cannot.

Anonymous said...

So Ioz slams psychology by comparing it to alchemy. The defense of psychology, then, is to not claim a false analogy but instead to leap to the defense of alchemy?

Brother Seamus said...

Let's get down to important things: can we count on IOZ to infiltrate Netroots Nation (formerly YearlyKos), being held in Pittsburgh this weekend, and provide us with liveblogging and transcripts of conversations with leading pwogs?

Cüneyt said...

I don't think I disagree with Solar Hero. It's an important distinction.

And Anon 1:43, I do not defend alchemy, or astrology for that matter, just as I do not defend the quackery and the crime that have rested within and still rest within the psychological field. That said, I point to Newton's alchemical study, as IOZ alluded to, and note that many things referred to in this gilded age as reasonable and noble existed right alongside absurd practices and magical thought. The line between pseudoscience and science is often blurred, as much by scientists as by less accomplished imbeciles.

Cüneyt said...

And IOZ should definitely pull a Perrin and attend a Dem event. I would pay double the usual rate to read such remarks.

drip said...

But not at the expense of foodie friday, I hope, especially given the content of the post.

ts said...

What we need is more TRUTH and SOUL.

SteveB said...

Hey, the comments are pretty good, too:

ron Says:
August 12th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

There seems to be confusion between eating healthy food and eating too much. If you ate only food from the Four Seasons or Whole Foods market, you would still get diabetes if you ate the same amount.

McDonald’s doesn’t sell unhealthy food. Some people just eat too much for their lifestyle.


Good point, Ron! I'm looking forward to hearing the same argument made with regard to heroin. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it, if it's used in moderation.

Rojo said...

I, unfortunately, spent two years slaving away as a McDonald's drone (Taylorism, fuck yeah!) and I learned pretty quickly to pay attention to the McD's ads that were on television the night before. It was simultaneously amazing and frightening, if the ads were pushing McRibs the night before, McRib sales would go through the roof. No matter that the molded meat product sat in luke warm McBBQ sauce for hours on end and were thoroughly disgusting, people wanted their McRibs.

drip said...

Lessee, every time I see an ad for heroin on the TeeVee, my appetite for the stuff goes out of control. Somebody, Tom Robbins maybe, suggested that the special sauce had a little something extra special in it, too. No wonder I use more than I should!

stras said...

Everyone who's ever been to a shrink has been to a shitty shrink, too; it doesn't mean the entire field is a fraud, any more than the number of physicians hopped up on pain-killers means that modern medicine is nothing more than witchery. But psychology is one of those areas where you reliably turn into a crank at the drop of a hat, so whatever, Izzy - I'll check you out on a day when you're making sense.

Christopher said...

Maybe I'm just naive, but I never expected to see so much support for fucking McDonald's on a more or less liberal blog.

Honestly, almost everybody is saying things like this annonymous commentator:

Americans are surrounded by healthy foods - fresh fruits, veggies, fruit, etc. But they’re also fat pigs for exactly the same reason their in debt up to the asses - they can’t control their appetites.

So, I get fast food because it's cheap and, um, fast, not because I love terrifyingly unhealthy food.

I do love terrifyingly unhealthy food, but if I have the time and money, I'll go to a real restaurant where I can get a burger that isn't completely shitty.

Is it just me? Yglesias seems to be saying that there's just such a demand for shitty cheeseburgers that McDonald's just has no choice but to fill it.

I have my doubts, frankly.

romerocker said...

It's true what SteveB says about heroin.

Enron said...

You're gonna hafta answer to the Coca-Cola corporation for that one.

Anthony said...

pester power

wankers

Anonymous said...

Sorry IOZ, I had to toppost your interchange with Cuneyt on alchemy et al at Slate BotF ... hope you don't mind ... if it's a copyright infringment, please let me know and I'll delete the post or ask the editor to delete it.

Anonymous said...

Take that alchemy/chemistry distinction from the physical to the social sciences -- over the same period, and with some of the names -- and you get: "From the patently bogus discipline of mercantilism grew modern laissez-faire economics." There's a McThoughtProcess worthy of Tom Friedman.

Anonymous said...

IOZ didn't read all that Montaigne in the original for nuttin, ya know. His rhetorical flourishes all come with a guarantee of reusability good for at least one interval between paradigm shifts.

IOZ said...

Nony at 12:15 - no hair off my skinny ass. What do I look like, Mickey? Use away.

Anonymous said...

Adding to it is the fact that if you want food and you're poor, you're probably eating crap. There was an article that made the national rounds this week about a group driving a truck filled with produce around as if it were an Ice Cream truck, citing the fact that there are no Whole Foods or even supermarkets in the hood (SHOCKAH). Apparently, it was news to a great many that people in the ghetto get food at fast food outlets and package stores! So much so, its easier for poor people in the third world to eat a vegetable than it is someone living near the Motor City Casino. I guess that's just the market working, aimrite?

Anonymous said...

This is NONY 12:15 just circling back to say thanks for the OK ... you know, I don't know another writer on the web who can make me belly-laugh about an abstruse matter - it's not just your local turns of phrase - it's the aptness of the rhetorical strategem behind them ... if the world were ready for you, this would be a supremely well-paying gig for you ...

Anonymous said...

You brought back an old memory - I grew up about five miles from the institute mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Dichter

Anonymous said...

"Nony at 12:15 - no hair off my skinny ass. What do I look like, Mickey? Use away."


...brings to mind a question I have not seen your opinion on - intellectual property. what say you?

Anonymous said...

McDonald's = Say's Law?

Discuss.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

I find it almost absurdly unbelievable that people do not recognize the extent to which marketing, advertisement, ego-stroking, and preying-upon-insecurities control what people buy and do.

The idea that demand creates supply, precedes supply and therefore triggers production, is absurd.

Manufacturers decide what they want to sell, and then set about creating the demand through various levels of psych-out infotainment bombardment. Jesus, just turn on your fucking TeeVee and watch the fucking pharmacology ads -- something we never had 15 years ago, direct appeal to the patient instead of direct appeal to the prescribing MD.

As to TGGP's usual "I believe in the market" drivel, I suppose everyone needs a deity to worship, even when the deity is a falsity or a rank fraud.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Take that alchemy/chemistry distinction from the physical to the social sciences -- over the same period, and with some of the names -- and you get: "From the patently bogus discipline of mercantilism grew modern laissez-faire economics." There's a McThoughtProcess worthy of Tom Friedman.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm coming from. So at least this "Anoynmous" I"ve quoted above understands what I'm saying.

As far as I can tell, 99% of the "economists" working on and studying American business practice, they're engaged in making excuses for corporate socialism, a/k/a fascism. TGGP ranks among these drones of the corporate dollar, the ghosts of Mussolini.

dhex said...

"I find it almost absurdly unbelievable that people do not recognize the extent to which marketing, advertisement, ego-stroking, and preying-upon-insecurities control what people buy and do."

i find it absurdly unbelievable that people give it so much more weight and power than it actually has. i call it the "adbusterian current" but you can call it whatever you want. ("adbusterian" rolls of the tongue.)

the vast majority of advertising efforts are a complete failure - meaning well into the 90% range. i think it's given so much weight because a) it's annoying, if you pay attention to it for any length of time and b) it's a convenient way to explain the choices and behaviors of others in a way that makes sense, rather than trying to wade through a clusterfuck of lies about ROI.

it shares a subtext with trutherism, really; sure, everything is fucked up and bad but at least out there someone is in control. (generally speaking, the adbusterian solution is to return this control to "the community" or some other awful metaphor for a civics board/firing squad.)

IOZ said...

the vast majority of advertising efforts are a complete failure - meaning well into the 90% range.

Aside from being a made-up statistic, it's a non sequitur. Advertisers don't seek a one-to-one return: ad purchased=item sold, or whatever your phony number is supposed to mean. Are there marginal returns on investments in advertising? Yes, demonstrably. That is why businesses and people keep buying advertising.

Your argument is that customers aren't fooled by advertising, but advertisers are fooled by advertising? You may wish to think about this some more.

Mr.Fundamental said...

what about Chik-fil-A?

Mr.Fundamental said...

Chik-fil-A has to be an outlier. that shit is good!