Friday, September 04, 2009

I'm Afraid of Americans

I think that it is worth noting that liberals spent eight years bemoaning the incipient fascism of the Bush-Cheney era, but now that their bright and shining star is in charge, it is absolutely verboten, totally beyond the pale if you'll pardon the expression, to call OUR President--commander-in-chief, Adeodatus, The Obama--a fascist. Show some respect, why dontcha? Likewise this recent imbroglio in which Obama decides to beam himself directly into America's classrooms to urge The Children to just say no, or stay in school, or whatever . . . I mean, honestly, I find it entirely harmless, more chuckle-worthy than anything, the sort of babykissing politicking that makes American Democracy the laughing stock the beacon of the Free World. Nonetheless, if Georgie-Peorgie had preempted Sponge-Bob to urge Our Children to clear the brush of their minds, such as it was, one can imagine the cries of Big Brother!

In any case, the fact that we are even having such an argument is only one more indication of the swollen absurdity that is the modern imperial presidency, pontifex maximus, head cheerleader, life coach, guidance counselor, priest-confessor, confidant, inamorato, ad infinitum. The question is not so much whether or not it is fascistic per se for the head of state and chief executive of our nominal republic to address Our Children, The Future, but rather whether or not it is more simply ridiculous. If our most fervent desire is for our children to Stay In School, a more effective remedy than an annual pep talk might be to make schools less wholly miserable, enervating, spirit-crushing, thought-destroying, mind-rotting, child-processing, conformity factories . . . but then, that might chip into the standardized testing scam, and as goes Kaplan, Inc., so goes the Washington Post, a local publication in Washington D.C. modeled on Gotham and similar scene-style glossies.

79 comments:

Rowan said...

It is absolutely absurd for the head of the American state to be able to address the people involved in a state-run venture. How dare he! Everyone knows that the American schools are totally and completely apolitical, and have nothing to do in any way with the power of the American state!

Anonymous said...

the speech itself is unproblematic, and i generally disagree with fox news carnival barking freaks, but the dept. of ed. memoranda re: what activities Our Children could partake in before/after the show were weird. the bureacrat who wrote that should be flogged publicly, by the Big O hisself.

Christopher M. said...

the dept. of ed. memoranda re: what activities Our Children could partake in before/after the show were weird.

Well, you can't do your sacraments out of order.

the_system said...

Nonetheless, if Georgie-Peorgie had preempted Sponge-Bob to urge Our Children to clear the brush of their minds, such as it was, one can imagine the cries of Big Brother!

In fairness, I remember Bush 41 doing something similar back when I was a youngin' and myself a subject of our exalted public school system.

I don't recall anybody thinking anything of it. My parents didn't even know it was in the offing and did the whole we-don't-really-care "oh, that's nice, honey" thing when I told them about it afterward. The faculty tried to pretend that it was important, but other than the unlucky few who were chosen to guard the auditorium exits, they didn't stick around to watch.

Just sayin'...

Cüneyt said...

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Well, at least they took out the other Roman salute.

Look, I get your point, IOZ, but the flimsy but-you-said-Bush-was-fascist routine, which really isn't true, considering how many liberals switched parties for him, voted for him, and so on, distracts from your ultimate point, with which I agree.

NutellaonToast said...

No fair, liberals waited at least a few months before calling Bush a fascist! Big diff!

IOZ said...

Cuneyt - What the fuck are you talking about?

Anonymous said...

Might it be that some, maybe even many, people are simply pointing out that since Obama is not a fanatical reactionary possessed with crackpot racial theories who sticks political opponents in prison camps, calling him a fascist marks you as a stupendous fucking moron?

(Personally, I felt comparisons to Mussolini or Franco would have proved more illuminating in the case of the Bush clan's inbred special needs child.)

IOZ said...

Obama is not a fanatical reactionary possessed with crackpot racial theories who sticks political opponents in prison camps.

Really? Because it seems to me that he is nothing if not a reactionary, operating the same prison camps as his predecessors, and if you think that the "spread of democracy" and the so-called war on terror aren't at their most fundamental "crackpot racial theory," then brother, I've got you a fine destiny to manifest.

TGGP said...

Not all crappy presidents are fascists, not all crackpots theories are racial, and not all prisoners we'd like released are political.

rowan said...

Those are better described as "Nazi" than "fascist," which makes the comparison to Mussolini and Franco all the more bemusing.

Anonymous said...

Stop with the name calling. We are all pro-mercantilist shiny-happy crypto-fascist progressive post-neo-socialists now.

Cüneyt said...

I mentioned another quasi-fascist intrusion of the state into our school system, with the hope of suggesting that this isn't all that new.

I also mentioned that I doubt that liberals were all that cozy with the f-word, even though I know some rightists always got pissy about it presumably happening non-stop. You don't bother to cite how frequently this occurred, either.

Anonymous said...

Those are better described as "Nazi" than "fascist," which makes the comparison to Mussolini and Franco all the more bemusing

Well, I'm thinking primarily of the specific Hitler comparisons that the teabaggers are fond of. When the three-tooth-havin' motherfuckers on teevee are calling him a fascist, that's what they mean. They even helpfully provide drawings of Obama with a tiny mustache!

And I'm just saying, if you want to call someone a fascist, there's a couple other examples that might fit a little better.

Bonus fun: I don't think you know what "bemusing" means, do you? Hint: it's not just another way to say "amusing".

Right, IOZ, right. When Obama starts espousing the idea of Americans as a race, let alone a super-race destined to rule for a millenium, and throws Republicans in prison camps, then let me know, and I'll agree that he's just like Adolf, the pwoggies are hypocrites har har, hallelujah, amen. Until then, give the facile tu quoque bullshit a fucking rest, willya? It's been done to death.

Taxi Rob said...

Why, I remember, it was one fine morning in September I believe, oh, I dunno, about seven years ago, that GeeDub went to personally address some school children and show off his reading skills, but then the liberal conspiracy interrupted him...

Anonymous said...

Iraq Invasion, bitches!

Anonymous said...

Better he should strip naked, turn the other cheek, and shout "follow me?" That would be change I could believe in.

rowan said...

Oh, nonny, your irony of saying that people shouldn't call Obama a fascist because he's better compared to Mussolini was lost on me. And certainly, because of that, it's MY vocabulary which needs correcting. Kudos.

AlanSmithee said...

Let Obama be Obama!

Anonymous said...

cuneyt, you still get a what the fuck are you talking about. your comment is not based in any kind of logic or reality that i am aware of.

Kafka said...

Sure, the left are hypocrites, but there's a whole different vibe to the cheerleading. On the right during Bush II-III the main gist was 'criticism of the President is treasonous and gives aid and comfort to the enemy'. I don't hear the left demanding respect for the office of President- or invoking 'the troops' or 'the enemy' at every turn. And the left hasn't all of a sudden started wearing flag pins.

And on style points- it was Bush who gave us Department of Homeland Security, Blackwater prowling the streets of NO, Cheney's secret energy deal, bank bailout, Halliburton flags flying on US military bases, landing on aircraft carrier in costume that accentuated his package, a fetish for giving speeches to military crowds, homoerotic BDSM torture picks...etc. Obama tries to increase social services somewhat and will give a talk to school kids and the right is screaming he's a raving fascist. The right isn't calling him a fascist for his actual fascist policies- they're calling him a fascist for acting like a US president- the uppity negro.

But I'll concede- Rome and the British Empire are more helpful historical analogies than Nazi Germany or Franco's Spain- and on that score Obama has the potential to far outdo Bush. I'm not sure the left has the zeal for an expansion of a softer empire though. We'll see...

Anonymous said...

Stop being such a grown-up, Kafka.

BDR said...

Still, re: post title - it *is* a very underrated Bowie song.

Cüneyt said...

You know, Anon 2:40, I can't stand it when people (other than IOZ) tell me something doesn't make sense without telling me how it doesn't make sense. (And in any case, most folks on here, including our dear host, will usually assume that I have some thought in my overworked, fevered little mind, even if they see no proof of it.)

But here. Connect the dots.

IOZ sed: "Likewise this recent imbroglio in which Obama decides to beam himself directly into America's classrooms to urge The Children to just say no, or stay in school, or whatever.... Nonetheless, if Georgie-Peorgie had preempted Sponge-Bob to urge Our Children to clear the brush of their minds, such as it was, one can imagine the cries of Big Brother!"

Rowan sed: "It is absolutely absurd for the head of the American state to be able to address the people involved in a state-run venture. How dare he! Everyone knows that the American schools are totally and completely apolitical, and have nothing to do in any way with the power of the American state!"

To which I posted the pledge of allegiance, which isn't all that old in my book, but has certainly been a statist tradition in American schools for some decades. And I alluded to the other Roman salute, hand-on-heart, that we still use, even though we got rid of the one more commonly associated with fascism, namely the stick-your-hand-in-the-air (if-about-minorities-you-just-don't-care). Look up what Liddy said about it; he knows what I'm talking about.

And then, as I said, I voiced doubt that fascist was ever that much a label used for Bush, though maybe I want to retract that. Liberals sure did pussy-foot about the matter, and compared them obliquely, Wolf's book and such. But I also saw many, many liberals who voted for Bush, supported the Iraq invasion, and vowed a commitment to the war on terror. And flirted with voting for McCain, who would have bombed Guernica if given the chance. So maybe this is a whole other issue. Either way, I found and find the whole "You all called Bush a fascist, and now they call Obama a fascist and you cry foul" routine to hinge on the notion that liberals widely called Bush a fascist, and therefore less than convincing.

But I agreed with IOZ's ultimate--I thought--point, namely that it doesn't matter what we call something so much as that we acknowledge when it's ridiculous.

So there, Anon. Let me know where the holes are; I'd love to be educated.

Christopher M. said...

Late Bowie is underrated in general.

erin4iraq said...

It is chilling to observe how quickly liberals abandon any purported commitment to freedom of speech and personal liberty if it hinders the march toward an Obama-led utopia. Yikes.

The Promiscuous Reader said...

Yes, erin4iraq, almost as quickly as conservatives do.

SteveB said...

Nonetheless, if Georgie-Peorgie had preempted Sponge-Bob to urge Our Children to clear the brush of their minds, such as it was, one can imagine the cries of Big Brother!

My imagination isn't as good as yours, IOZ, so I'll let you imagine those cries of "Big Brother!" for me, but I wonder: If this had happened, do you suppose we would have seen more than 2200 news articles about it?

It's hard to make comparisons between levels of liberal outrage and right-wing outrage when right-wing outrage causes a media feeding frenzy, and millions of outraged liberals (outraged, say, over the pending invasion of Iraq) gets relegated to a single story on page A-18.

SteveB said...

It is chilling to observe how quickly liberals abandon any purported commitment to freedom of speech and personal liberty...

I'm not sure where the threat to freedom of speech and personal liberty is in this, unless it's the massive deprivation of personal liberty that comes from being forced to go to school for eighteen years. But sure, for half an hour of those eighteen years they have to sit in an auditorium and listen to the President.

And, while listening to the President, they will be completely deprived of their freedom of speech. Violators will have a stern note sent to their parents, and will be forced to sit in detention during recess.

Cüneyt said...

Just as their speech is limited routinely--and this is after, I will repeat, they daily pledge before a divine witness their obedience to the symbol of the state and to the state itself.

rowan said...

I wasn't even thinking of the Pledge, though that's certainly a demonstration. I was thinking virtually any history class is a celebration of America, and many other humanities and social science classes.

The Pledge is far more direct, but I guess it doesn't say anything about the Head of State, so the right isn't going nuts about it (today).

But honestly, it's like these people don't realize that Obama is a legitimate Head of State.

Inkberrow said...

Granted, calling Obama "fascistic" is pretty silly. Maybe the neutral or generic assessment is what policies and conduct are redolent of "totalitarian" strategies and themes. Nonetheless, it's also pretty silly for progs to suddenly prate in hushed tones about the Holocaust and the irresponsible use of "Nazi", "Hitleresque", and "fascist" in political debate. Set aside the constant perfervid hyperbole from the likes of Maher, Olbermann, Stewart, Kos, Huffington, and the Air America crowd during the Bush years---Democratic members of Congress, no less, from the deranged Cynthia McKinney to still-prominent pols like John Lewis and Dan Durbin, repeatedly indulged in the Forbidden Attribtions, to the roars of their crowd.

IOZ said...

It's hard to make comparisons between levels of liberal outrage and right-wing outrage when right-wing outrage causes a media feeding frenzy, and millions of outraged liberals (outraged, say, over the pending invasion of Iraq) gets relegated to a single story on page A-18.

I don't see how you can fault America's so-called conservatives for the timidity, pallor, and whiny inefficacy of their cross-aisle colluders.

Truth Excavator said...

Obama apologists are the Soviet apologists of our day. It doesn't matter what kind of crime is committed, or what truth suppressed, Obama will always be in the right. But their numbers will dwindle, especially if there is no serious health care reform.

If the whole country turns into a state of emergency, then any insanity is possible on the 'Left'

Anonymous said...

"I don't see how you can fault America's so-called conservatives for the timidity, pallor, and whiny inefficacy of their cross-aisle colluders."

Stupidest IOZ comment of the day.

(level of passion + outrage)=(level of coverage)

Logic fail. That "efficacy" you speak of doesn't just arise from the aether commensurate to the energy created by spittle and rage.

No, the whole point is that the anti-0bama clique gets every crayon scrawled screed put on CNN while millions strong anti-war protests were tut-tutted to make way for stories about Britney Spears or some such.

Hate on liberals all you want, fine. And I do admire the ability of the conservanuts to stay in the picture, but at least cop to the fact that they have powerful uncles pulling strings to make sure the cameras and mics always point in their direction.

Rowan said...

Inkberrow, do you have any citations for that? Specifically Stewart and John Lewis, the latter of whom is as bonified an American Hero (tm) as just about anyone alive today.

Inkberrow said...

Rowan---

I think it was re McCain with John Lewis, not Bush, now that I think about it, my mistake. During the heat of the Obama/McCain campaign last fall, wasn't there was a bit of a furor when Lewis, one of the three "wise men" McCain said he'd look to for counsel, compared McCain and his supporters to George Wallace and Wallace supporters, and referencing church-bombings and "brownshirts"?

IOZ said...

It's interesting to note the number of Donk diehards popping up to anathematize poor little us now that The Obama seems to require defense against . . . something. I find this charming.

Obviously I enjoy egging-on as sport. Interestingly, your average liberal used to complain about the right's persecution complex when the nominal right controlled all branches of government. Now the nominal left enjoys similar power and even greater majorities, and it too engages the old Hofstadter routine. Coincidence?

If you deign to read the top post, you will see it gently mocking the idea that an address to the school children ranks as a Party-Congress moment; yet the mere mention of The Obama in the same breath as The DubbaYew brings the hysterics? Why?

Blargh Thesis: neither George W. Bush nor Barack H. Obama represent a major deviation from the mainstream of American presidents in the era of hegemony.

Enron said...

So Jonah the Whale Goldberg is correct then?

IOZ said...

Goldberg, I have always felt, is a fella who syllogizes his way from the proposition that all men are Socrates to the conclusion that Socrates is a man.

SteveB said...

I'm going out for the evening, but Anonymous @ 2:03 can speak for me from now on.

NutellaonToast said...

"It's interesting to note the number of Donk diehards popping up to anathematize poor little us now that The Obama seems to require defense against . . . something. I find this charming."

Why are you being so stupid today, IOZ? No one has said SHIT about Obama or defended him. They've just noted that insane conservatives being ridiculous are getting a shitload more coverage than liberals ever got when they were the only sane ones around (ie Iraq).

b-psycho said...

Ioz: "I don't see how you can fault America's so-called conservatives for the timidity, pallor, and whiny inefficacy of their cross-aisle colluders."

There's a reason right-wingers do pure unadulterated rage better: the things they get angry about (perceived weakness against The Enemy, fear of diminishing privilege associated with "white" culture, suspicion of intellectuals) have been around and tolerated for a long time. Meanwhile, angry liberals were treated like communists until relatively recently.

alfred hitchcock said...

there's a potato chip in my crack, ne1 hungry?

Christopher M. said...

Blargh Thesis: neither George W. Bush nor Barack H. Obama represent a major deviation from the mainstream of American presidents in the era of hegemony.

Dude, no one present in this thread has ever contested this thesis, ever. We just don't see that it has fuck-all to do with teabaggers screeching "Hitler" every time Obama scratches his nose.

Having actually been awake during the Bush administration, I feel the need to point out that not only were most liberals rather reluctant to call Bush a Nazi for much of his administration - it wasn't until well into the 2004 reelection campaign before you started seeing that Eco essay being forwarded around - but being the good little reasonable technocrats they are, they spent years positively bristling at anyone to their left who made such a comparison. Indeed, any suggestion that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan demonstrated not official ineptitude but malice was treated for years as a fringe belief, and any mention of the F word caused the typical liberal to go stammering into a flutter of sensible denunciation.

NutellaonToast said...

"Meanwhile, angry liberals were treated like communists until relatively recently."

Yeah, now they've been upgraded to shrill.

Inkberrow said...

b-psycho and Nutella---

Yeah, I'm glad all that's changed myself. Now this hate-America, 9/11 truther Van Jones character, on the other hand---you know, he's one of those policy "czars" who act like cabinet secretaries but skirt the Congressional vetting process---he's in a seperate category altogether. He's an "Angry Communist", and those folks sadly enough are apparently still on shaky turf, given today's resignation announcement. Such a shame to see this promising Obama appointee "smeared" by past statements and associations, like David Duke was.

NutellaonToast said...

What the fuck are you talking about? What the fuck does Vietnam have to do with fucking anything?

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Granted, calling Obama "fascistic" is pretty silly.

You must have some novel definition of either fascism or silly.

Where I come from, fascism is the enmeshing of government and corporate power/interest.

Here in the USA today, Obama's agenda, advisors and cabinet are corporate stooges, and not even thinly veiled ones. Arne Duncan? Robert Gates? Kathleen Sibelius? Hillary Clinton? Rahm Emanuel?

Not corporate? Not fascist?

Now THAT's silly.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

the deranged Cynthia McKinney

Yes, pointing at the excessive apologism for Israel's brutal murder and oppression of Palestinians is "deranged."

Yes, making a stink about being mistreated by the US Capitol Police repeatedly, day after day, despite her proof of identity as a Congresswoman, that's "deranged."

Yes, asking the Federal Government to be more responsive to the poor, ignored segment of America, that's "deranged."

Looks like the Obamaphilic sycophancy gang have created some new definitions for some old words. Might this be the "change" that Our Obamessiah promised?

Inkberrow said...

Nutella---

If you're talking to me, I'll try to answer your question. "Vietnam" is part of some anemic rhetorical diversionary tactic you're employing?

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Leave it to Obamabots to pretend that their deflections of criticism away from Our Obamessiah and onto the utterly powerless lunatic spinartists of the "right" is NOT defending Obama.

Hopey McChange! All we ever need!

If Our Obamessiah doesn't succeed in delivering us to Obanirvana, it'st the fault of Glenn Beck and the "wingnuts." Jon Stewart said so, thus it must be true!

Inkberrow said...

Charles F.---

By reference to "totalitarian" features, I tried to invoke the Arendt conception that what you describe---Government Loves Corporatist---can originate from the political left or the political right. "Fascist", however, as I understand it anyway, also involves a fervent, openly-tribalist motivational component, based on race or nationalism or some other exclusivist division of society and the world, often taking the form of imperialist or otherwise self-justified expansion at the expense of lessers or non-s. Racial or nationalistic based hierarchizing is hardly Obama's schtick, except to deplore it, as he traipses around the world like a flagellant, hat and flail in hand, apologizing for America's sins and her failure to commit to a globalist redistribution of wealth in the service of some centralized communitarian authority.

As to former Representative McKinney, your objections would be well-taken if they bore a more accurate resemblance to McKinney herself and to what actually occurred during her embarrassing sojourn in Washington.

NutellaonToast said...

Inkbrow, since you're dense, what you fucking said had fuck all to do with waht we're taking about. No one was talking about Jones or David Duke.

Furthermore, I don't know about pyscho, but when I said "they've been upgraded to shrill" I believe I was saying that they were still demeaned, so your point (I think) that Jones was just pushed out for being angry doesn't really contradict my point that angry liberals are still demeaned.

Now are you convince that I am expert?

NutellaonToast said...

Charles, I'm a liberal and I don't like Obama that much, though I do think he's tangibly better than McCain would've been.

OMFG, did I just BLOW YOUR MIND?!?!?!

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

What you think, Nutella, is not the same as what IS.

You can predict an improvement on Angry McCain, but that's mere soothsaying. I defy you to offer any proof that the effect of Obama's helming the Fed Govt is any improvement on what McCain would have done.

I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath, because I know that every Donklebot spends his/her time blaming Rethugs rather than closely examining the reality of The Donkle.

Inkberrow said...

Nutella---

As I suspected, it was simply an exceptionally lame riposte eh?. Too bad. Great job marginalizing my remarks, though---you're right, "no one" brought up Jones....until someone brought him up, me! Heavy. Meanwhile, two pejorative-label-loving progs were whining about pejorative labels like "angry", "liberal", and "communist" in our political culture the day an angry truther-liberal and communist, Jones, is forced out of the Obama administration because of the perceived accuracy (based on Jones' own words and deeds) of those very labels. I know, not the App you fellas had in mind. Sorry.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Inkberrow, you type a good fantasy. By "good" there, I mean that it never hews close to reality.

You use the pejorative definition of "fascism" -- one employed only for the purpose of denigrating one's enemy, rather than for describing a system of governmental power apportionment.

As to McKinney, I see you enjoy the 1st A notion that public figures are forced to withstand defamatory statements grounded in lies. Bully for you and your ideological defection from reality!

NutellaonToast said...

Right, cause the fact that I don't think Obama is infallible is totally proof of your assertion that all liberals thing Obama is infallible.

Oh, wait, were you changing the topic?

NutellaonToast said...

Hey Ink, you accused me of believing that those labels were no longer used to marginalize liberals but I made it clear that I didn't believe that that was the case. That makes you WRONG. Whoops.

Now, continue blathering about Jones. It's really helpful. I'm totally disagreeing with you about him! Totally! I really am!

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

No, your latter post changed the topic.

Playing 3-card monte with words is not really as clever as you imagine. Being a liar and fraud is not impressive. Nor is being an apologist for The Obamessiah.

Shouldn't you be hanging about at Glenn Greenwald's place, or Eschaton, or Arianna's Upscale Organic Ideological Salon?

NutellaonToast said...

I LOVE Glenn Greenwald! How did you know?

Inkberrow said...

Nutella---

Time for a Pop-Tart and some Grand Theft Auto!


Charles F.---

Re fascism: nonresponsive.

Re McKinney: You clearly have strongly-held views and presumably some factual bases therefor. Can you explain why McKinney's own race-gerrymandered black-majority district voted her out? Yep, those African-Americans sure are credulous, eh, especially when it comes to the "slanders" of Beltway white boys! It can't have been one of Reverend Wright's credible racialist fables, not on this score anyway....

NutellaonToast said...

GTA is so last year.

Inkberrow said...

Nutella---

As is childishly defensive GOP-bashing. You do seem conversant with the teen milieu.....

NutellaonToast said...

I'm not GOP bashing. I'm idiot bashing. That's why I keep beginning my comments with your name, so the idiot pays attention.

Fun fact: I'm 12, so your assertion that I'm a teenager is totally wrong! Moran!

Anonymous said...

Dear Cuneyt,

i get your gist about the pledge. that is pretty superficial and obvious. i do admire how fancy you imagine yourself for pointing it out.

This though:

"And then, as I said, I voiced doubt that fascist was ever that much a label used for Bush, though maybe I want to retract that."

you are hedging now, but originally what you said was not of this reality. You may think its true. Your limited experience may tell you its true. But its not true. Bushitler, Bush is a fascist, etc etc was at LEAST as popular as it is now.

The turn of phrase was then, what it is now - rhetoric that will resonate with Ma and Pa in Everytown, USA. In however many years, when a republican is elected and she pursues policies more or less in line with her liberal predecessor (with a bit more throw the business manager's way), there will be calls of fascism. And there will be your conservative doppleganger screaming about the virtues of his cohort during the dark times of "the other"

Cüneyt said...

Anon 11:58, I don't want to disturb your routine, but I don't believe screaming about government being fascist has ever resonated with the rank-and-file. I don't know what you're saying about my conservative doppelganger. I'm not a liberal.

Anyway, I may be hedging, you say. I'd say I was merely amending my previous statements. As Christopher M. mentioned, the Eco essay was indeed making the rounds; liberals did frequently assert that Bush was a fascist, but did so coyly and obliquely. Nevertheless, you don't prove what you assert, and IOZ didn't prove what he asserted. If my experience is flawed, I apologize. I was surrounded by "reasonable liberals" aplenty who supported the war, gave Bush far too many chances, and were called fascists, too. I saw that. I know libs also called Bush a fascist. I merely question how much. I always heard about libs doing so more than I ever saw it.

And I'm sorry to repeat my assertion about the pledge. Like others, I did so to argue that both Bush and Obama are part of the same continuum. The state has been in school for some time. If I am fancy, I am not so because this, which is rather obvious indeed.

Cüneyt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Charlie McCarthy said...

Inky - its nice to see we have now our list of 'enemies', and that they even signed a paper saying as much.
When do the House Un-American Committee festivities start?

ITs unbelievable you used Communist as a derogative - how old ARE you?

Inkberrow said...

Charlie Mac---

HUAC's biggest sin was being correct the vast bulk of the time, resulting in the mass interruption of shooting schedules and investment decisions for useful Hollywood idiots who thought their anti-capitalist poses would look courageous at capitalist cocktail parties. We've had decades of their maudlin victim-hagiographies ever since, to great effect among impressionable yoots. Heck, you think Stalin was waaay oversold as a villain and a threat to world security, and that Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were innocent, right? You get an A+!

Inkberrow said...

Nutella---

But you think "idiot-bashing" and "GOPer-bashing" are synonymous---full circle. That's why you're a partisan hack.

Charlie McCarthy said...

Wow, Inky...wow.

You do realize that just being a communist is not against the law, right?
Espionage is against the law.

Due process is in the Constitution, as are the rights to assemble and to associate.

"HUAC...was [mostly] correct" Thanks for that.

erin4iraq said...

Late entry:

Nut-on-toast: Moron is spelled "moron" not "moran", moron.

Yeah, yeah, I know, it takes one to know one and all that crap...

wavydavy said...

erin4iraq --

It certainly does take one to know one, and you are living proof thereof.

Obviously, you are not familiar with all Internet traditions. The reference to "moran" is a sarcastic reference to this genius:

http://tinyurl.com/lrugoh

As the old saying goes: Make sure brain is engaged before putting mouth (or, in this case, keyboard) in gear.

So, who's the "moran" now?

erin4iraq said...

I "am [obviously] not familiar with all Internet traditions."

Nice compliment, thanks.

Inkberrow said...

Charlie Mac---

Nor is it against the law to be a KKK member. What's your point, that you're a moral positivist? Pol Pot would like the cut of your jib.

wavydavy said...

"You're a fascist!"

"No, you're a bigger fascist!"

A little comic strip about false equivalences:

http://tinyurl.com/mvqdxb

Anyone who thinks that Repubs and Dems are equally at fault on this topic is an idiot or a liar (or both).

Now, before someone accuses me of blindly defending Obama, let me state without reservation that I think Obama already has an outstanding chance to be the most disappointing president in history, as measured by the gap (hell, it's a hole the size of the Grand Canyon) between the expectations he engendered and the reality he has delivered.

Also, from now on, after his so-far unending cave-ins to the screaming mob, Big Pharma, the military-industrial complex, and anyone else who says "Boo!" in a loud voice, in particular his abandonment of any meaningful reform on health care, I will be referring to him as President Eunuch.

Anonymous said...

"I don't want to disturb your routine, but I don't believe screaming about government being fascist has ever resonated with the rank-and-file."

come on, dude. glen beck's ratings go up everyday and public "outrage" at the townhalls put obama on his heels for the first time. those seem like very convincing examples of the rhetorical extreme of 'fascism' as a highly successful tactic.