Who Is IOZ?: Subjunction

Monday, September 21, 2009

Subjunction

Well, if there's one thing that you can hypothetically know for certain assuming that it turns out to be true, it is that this potential plot would definitely maybe be a potentially serious matter due to the possibility that the participants might at some point have planned to propose it.

41 comments:

Mr.Fundamental said...: gawd, how can you be so cocksure?; 11:17 AM
IOZ said...: Keep it in your pants.; 11:29 AM
Anonymous said...: Pakistan Al Quaeda Pakistan Al Quaeda Pakistan Al Quaeda Pakistan.; 11:30 AM
Anonymous said...: Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.; 11:37 AM
Mr.Fundamental said...: behind the scenes at Defeatist Headquarters, and by this I mean on the Internet over email, we like to clear google ads by writing "death to America, 9-11, let's do 9-11 all over again." it's kind of funny to see how quickly it clears the ads.; 11:37 AM
Agi said...: nine pages of handwritten notes!!!1!; 11:41 AM
Montag said...: nine pages of handwritten notes!!!1!

sounds like the potential screenplay i almost wrote once. does this mean if the arresting authorities in this case had been Hollywood execs i might have got an option on that movie?; 11:58 AM
Inkberrow said...: Well, as every schoolchild knows, It Takes A Nanosecond---for a New York City-area synagogue to explode, or for overreaching racist paranoia at the Expense of Muslims to morph into body counts and Failure To Connect The Dots. Me, I'm still furrowing my brow along with the establishment media over the real dangers facing real Americans: the sinister prospect of violent ideation in town-hallers and health-care protesters. One of these days those folks are gonna kill somebody!; 11:59 AM
Montag said...: Inkberrow, nothing is fucked here. you're being very undude.; 12:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Veteran counterterrorism officials said they were convinced the plot was potentially serious, based largely on their emerging suspicions about Mr. Zazi, his training in explosives, his travel to Pakistan tribal areas where Al Qaeda is influential and the apparent ease of his movements within the United States.

He had a car? That is serious!
-- sglover; 12:45 PM
nony said...: his travel to Pakistan tribal areas where Al Qaeda is influential

Pretty soon we're gonna have to start arresting soldiers for spending all that time in tribal areas.; 1:07 PM
switters said...: There's no terror prevention like prophylactic terror prevention. Next thing you know they'll find condoms filled with heroin in their lower intestines.

Oh. Wait. Never mind.; 1:12 PM
Anonymous said...: See, this story illustrates why Obama has chosen to keep the preventive detention, torture, and secret prison policies of the Bush administration in place. Without those important tools in the arsenal of democracy, we would never... uh... we wouldn't be able to catch ... ah... aquatic rodent .. for domestic purposes, within the, uh, city... that's not legal either.; 1:36 PM
Johnny Cocrane said...: No sweat man. His lawyer says he's cool...; 1:40 PM
BDR said...: Well, thanks to switters, Pink Moon is gonna be in my head the rest of the day.

Not that that's a bad thing.; 1:50 PM
Kafka said...: "In this case, officials say, Mr. Zazi and his confederates were apparently deterred before any plot had a chance to take shape and before investigators were able to clearly understand what the men were planning. That left prosecutors to charge the three men with proxy offenses of making false statements rather than crimes directly involving terrorism."

It's against the law to lie to police? Can I remain silent before my arrest, or is it only after my arrest? Man, I need to educate myself...; 2:39 PM
Montag said...: Kafka, this guy says don't talk.; 3:23 PM
Kafka said...: Thanks Montag- listening now. I like his start, "don't ever talk to any cop ever"; 3:56 PM
Kafka said...: Obstruction of Justice was my main concern with remaining silent before an arrest but I found it isn't obstruction unless you talk and lie- or do something like knowingly destroy evidence. Subpoena can compel you to talk but not talking to police during an investigation seems within your right.

Copbusters dude says don't open your door to police. Motion through a window for them to call you on the phone or call the station and have them tell the officer at your door to call. And if they do call, tell them you refuse to talk to them and hang up. Should give you some time to flush the dope..; 4:48 PM
ran said...: did you see the picture of the guy? bearded. scary.

probably secretly a nihilist.

best throw him in one of our torture dungeons forever just to be sure.; 5:17 PM
Inkberrow said...: Kafka and Montag---

Since we're getting all cool and tactical and streetwise here, do either of you fellas think any part of the analysis whatsoever depends upon.....whether or not the suspects actually committed the crimes being investigated? Even Professor Duane's heading on the link Montag provided seemed to suggest guilt or lack thereof possesses some small significance in absolute terms. "James Duane explains why innocent people should never talk to the police", it runs.

Hmmm, I thought folks were "guilty" or "not guilty" of charges, and that Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm was the last "innocent" person ever. But set that aside---you two are true to the music, right? These domestic terror suspects should lawyer up pronto, "innocent" or no, right? Whomever else might be out there working on Plan B? And you yourselves, with a kidnapped loved one would expect, nay demand, that the dirtbag suspect should tell those corrupted, trouble-making pigs where to get off with their questions, even when those fleeting pangs of conscience pass through. Right?; 5:44 PM
Kafka said...: Inkberrow,

So you know what side I'm on, I did my time for felony drug trafficking and 13 years of parole. I haven't filed an income tax return since I was 20, don't vote and commit at least one felony almost every day.

If my 10 year old daughter was kidnapped, my first call isn't to popo.; 6:07 PM
Kafka said...: And I'd add that I never had a problem with the fact that my Charlestown (Boston) grandfather and father sent money to the IRA with the full knowledge that the money would be spent on bombs and guns.

Is that street wise enough for you?; 6:26 PM
Inkberrow said...: Kafka---

Fair enough, thanks. Nevertheless, given what you've said I gues I'm not sure how valid or reliable it would be after all to extrapolate from your example to the best course of action for others, including these terror suspects. Regardless, the significance of actual guilt or lack thereof remains unaddressed here. Meanwhile, an American who would spurn the police if his/her daughter was kidnapped is either an outlaw or an idiot. You said which one.

I lived near Birmingham (Inkberrow, Worcs.) for the IRA pub bombings there, and elsewhere. Fight the power! In the form of unsuspecting civilians nursing a hard-earned pint....; 6:52 PM
drip said...: 1. Never talk to a police. Nothing good will come of it. This is true in all cases, there is no exception.

2. Unless you have already been convicted of the crime the police are investigating (unlikely, but possible), you are not guilty. This is not a metaphor; this is the law. Remember OJ's plea: I am 100% not guilty"? He was right.; 7:16 PM
Kafka said...: Again, fair enough. You don't make any bones about what you are.

My family is from Markethill outside Armagh. The black and tan did their killing in pubs too- hell they burned and sacked whole villages, cut off food supplies and killed a priest or two. I guess because they were paid to do it and wore uniforms it was OK.

If that's ancient history for you, consider this written by Human Rights Watch in 1992 about the RUC's treatment of kids (relevant to interrogations). It's neither criminal or stupid for some people not to trust that cops have their best interests in mind.

"Police officers and soldiers harass young people on the street Chitting, kicking and insulting them. Police officers in interrogation centers insult, trick and threaten youngsters and sometimes physically assault them. Children are locked up in adult detention centers and prisons in shameful conditions. The extent of the violence inflicted on children is appalling. Helsinki Watch heard dozens of stories from children, their parents, lawyers, youth workers and political leaders of children being stopped on the street and hit, kicked and abused again and again by police and soldiers. And seventeen-year-olds told Helsinki Watch of severe beatings in detention during interrogations by police."; 7:37 PM
Inkberrow said...: Kafka---

Well met. In my view, anyway, there is no "ancient history". Or more precisely, it still matters even if it's ancient. I'm not here to beat the drum for police and law "enforcement" now or then. Just to say it has its valuable place and purpose, as against what I took to as glib, unfairly wholesale dismissals. Same with intercepted domestic terror plots. As you and yours know better than me and mine, threats of organized violence should not be considered presumptively idle or pretextual, even rhetorically.; 8:09 PM
Kafka said...: I like your style Inkberrow and you're one of the reasons I love this blog. Different strokes and all. And I'd like to say that my daily felonies aren't so bad- bit torrents and growing dope mostly. I've tried to do no harm in my life.; 8:22 PM
Christopher said...: You all scoff, but I think you'll find that the government's central contention, that Zazi was planning to do something somewhere with somebody, is completely irrefutable.; 8:44 PM
erin4iraq said...: On the other hand, kafka, you are deluded if you believe your drug trafficking never hurt anyone; 8:46 AM
Montag said...: Inkberrow: first of all, i should disclose i have only seen part of that video, though i have seen it recommended in more than one place. i was passing the recommendation along in response to Kafka's question.

These domestic terror suspects should lawyer up pronto, "innocent" or no, right?

they do have the right to speak to an attorney.

Whomever else might be out there working on Plan B?

is this a ticking bomb scenario? we'll beat it out of 'em! (i should probably come out and say i am being facetious here.) also, it seems there wasn't even a Plan A, as these guys "were apparently deterred before any plot had a chance to take shape."

And you yourselves, with a kidnapped loved one would expect, nay demand, that the dirtbag suspect should tell those corrupted, trouble-making pigs where to get off with their questions, even when those fleeting pangs of conscience pass through. Right?

as a parent, i cannot think rationally about this scenario. i would hope that any pangs of conscience would lead to me being reunited with my loved one.

but to get to the main crux of what you said re: "innocence." yes, matters of conscience do make a difference in what one chooses to say or not say to the cops. i don't have a problem with the word innocent here, defined as "not dangerous or harmful; innocuous" -- rather than 'not guilty of [a crime].' meaning, if i knew i would be found guilty of having a dime bag in my backpack, no, i wouldn't consent to any searches or speak to the police without first lawyering-up.

the glibness, on my part, about the case cited in the op has to do with the apparent thinness of the case against these guys who were charged with "proxy offenses ... rather than crimes directly involving terrorism."; 8:53 AM
Kafka said...: erin4iraq,
Oh please. I don't have any 'victims' lined up looking for retribution. Along with cigarettes and coffee, pot is one of the great pleasures of my life and I'm certain most my customers feel the same way. Go picket a packy if you're so concerned about harm done to others. And if your tag, erin4iraq, means you support the US occupation of Iraq- your humanitarian compass needs a little adjustment.; 9:09 AM
Anonymous said...: "that Zazi was planning to do something somewhere with somebody"

I hope that comment was intended drily, Christopher.

In any event, it reminded me of a personal ad my mentor ran in the Boston Globe in the mid 60's when he was doing his PhD at MIT: "we will do anything with anybody".

He and his roommates had to change their phone number after they got the call from the Greek purser whose freighter had just docked in Boston after a long crawl from Piraeus.; 10:36 AM
BrianM said...: Kafka: Jut ignore Erin4ExecutingEvilDrugDealers. He has no understanding of irony or the consequences of what he advocates.; 10:56 AM
Inkberrow said...: Erin4---

Wouldn't you agree that most of the damage from the drug trade is government-issue, so to speak? That the wasteful, ill-conceived "War On Illegal Drugs" would not even exist if a gigantic new bureaucratic and law enforcement machine, drunk on graft and pensions, and supporting innumerable cottage industries, hadn't found itself suddenly in need of a fresh raison d'etre after Prohibition restored sanity to America (where alcohol was concerned anyway) ??

Reads like it, but not a rhetorical question.; 1:07 PM
erin4iraq said...: Kafka, yeah, trafficking in pot never killed anyone, except maybe a few folks in Mexico who got in the way.

Brian, thanks for calling me "he" - interesting.

Inky, I have no interest in debating whether or not drugs should be illegal and the point I made to Kafka is no less pertinent that they are illegal. Kafka may wish that things were different, so his business could grow and for other reasons, but it does not undermine the fact that he is deluded to think his actions trafficking illegal drugs have not resulted in harm to someone, somewhere.; 4:36 PM
Inkberrow said...: Erin4---

Rest assured I'm not debating whether illegal drugs should be illegal either. Your critiques have a personal moral/ethical component, however, so the origin and auspices of the "damage" you refer to is relevant in that connection. I'm assuming that as a putative conservative you can't also be a doctrinaire positivist.; 5:56 PM
Kafka said...: erin4iraq,
Let's see if I can play this game- if you have a diamond on your finger, or buy clothes, or put gas in your tank, or eat bananas, or pay taxes, or have a bank account- there's a pile of corpus's somewhere because of you. This is a fun game! Next I'll prove how you killed all the unicorns...; 9:22 PM
erin4iraq said...: Look, if I have to be concerned that my personal carbon footprint is causing global warning, you have to take responsibility for the fact that your demand for weed is driving violent drug wars. No man is an island, so don't flatter yourself into thinking you are some kind of neat guy who sends only happy thoughts out into the world.; 9:51 PM
Kafka said...: Carbon fruit print, Isle of Man violin wars...wait, what? Shit I'm fucked up, did I just kill a Mexican or something- and did someone just call me a neat guy?; 12:39 AM
Charles F. Oxtrot said...: On the other hand, kafka, you are deluded if you believe your drug trafficking never hurt anyone

Wheeee! Morton Kondracke is here! What fun! Pedophilic Church Dude lecturing us on a "morality" of the most strained sort!

I'm pretty sure that kafka knows who has and hasn't been hurt by his activity.

"Drug trafficking" bwaaaah hah hah hah hah hah hah. You're as bad as those nimrods who write scripts for CSI:Cuntslap.

"Hey, wanna buy some DRUGS, sketchy undercover cop dude?"; 12:32 PM

Monday, September 21, 2009

Subjunction

41 comments:

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