Monday, September 14, 2009

Won't Hurt a Bit

I think that when liberals say that the various conservatives teatimers and birthbaggers and nineeleveners and so on would be more convincing in their stand against the coming totalitarianism if they'd managed to evince skepticism during the Bush years is well taken, and I think that the liberal conviction that much of the current madness is driven by displaced anger at their own precarious economic circumstances, catalyzed by racial animus is mostly true. That doesn't mean I think any more highly of liberals, who are water carriers for a president who has willfully and vocally continued the supposedly aberrant, abhorent policies of the Bush administration, from sops to Wall Street to the black-site global gulag--that is to say that liberals would be more convincing in their stand against the conservative stand against the coming totalitarianism if they weren't defending a president who is tempermentally but not substantively different from his predecessor.

Here, for instance, is Yglesias, in typical form:

Probably the weirdest thing about the Glenn Beck / Tea Party nexus to me is that it tends to rely so heavily on libertarian rhetoric and fear of incipient authoritarianism. These kind of sentiments would be a lot easier to take seriously if not for the fact that we didn’t see these people marching out in the streets when George W. Bush used the threat of terrorism to justify secret, illegal warrantless surveillance, detention without trial, torture, etc. Indeed, the very same people who spend Monday, Wednesday, and Friday complaining that Barack Obama’s “czars” are a threat to liberty not only weren’t worried about czars in the Bush years, they spend Tuesday and Thursday worrying that Obama’s not doing enough to ensure that intelligence operatives can break the law with impunity.
Now that is all true as far as it goes, but it is also true, it is to me more true, that Yglesias' broadly held sentiment would be easier to take seriously were it not for the fact that Barack Obama has repeatedly ratified, extended, supported, embraced, and continued "secret, illegal warrantless surveillance, detention without trial, torture, etc." Yes, he has made speeches saying "we don't torture." So did George W. Bush. Yes, agencies within his administration have launched or proposed to launch investigations into low-level violations of human rights. So did agencies within the Bush administration. He has made noises about closing Guantanmo, like Bush, without doing so, like Bush, and he is expanding and making permanent the concentration camp at Bagram, even farther in the shadows, out of the public eye. He has forcefully embraced formerly illegal (if nevertheless widely practiced) electronic surveillance. He has, like Bush, talked about Iraqis taking over their own country, or, like, whatver, while preparing the transition from open occupation to the more typical form of American hegemony as practiced through the creation of "enduring" military bases. He has one-upped his predecessor in escalating war with Afghanistan and ordering incursions into Pakistan. He's given billions and billions to failed, abusive business to reward their subterfuge and failure, made secret policy in cahoots with various industry goons, etc. etc. etc.

So while it is true that your average Joe Teabagger suffers from hilarious white-trash racial myopia, and that is something that we can all laugh about, for there is nothing more hilarious and mockable on this good green earth than the incoherent whiteguy rage that has for so long propagated within our unacknowledged middling orders, the notion that these people are uniquely blinkered and hypocritical in their protest is perfectly false.

59 comments:

ts said...

applause

Montag said...

it's not so much that the "average Joe Teabagger suffers from hilarious white-trash racial myopia" and the average Jane Hopeandchanger suffers from ironical hipster elitist myopia, but that they are in thrall to the opinions they receive through the spirit box.

they are unthinking, yet engaged. (in the political process.) so there is a sort of consistency in it. quite spectacular really.

romerocker said...

amen

Michael Dawson said...

What Montag said.

Montag's is the only viable explanation of how "progressive friends" can take the absolute "other ideas" screwing they just got from Nobama on medical insurance, yet continue to do anything but hate him.

Point applies in spades to the odious navel-gazer Iglesias.

Anonymous said...

i think orwell left a bro/sis out of his "big brother" thing (or is it Big Mum und Dud?) at least for a sense of drama & tension projected for the masses, a squabbling big bro & big sis are an advance on orwell, even vaguely comforting, shades of our own radioactive families.

and libtards are worse, if only for their smugness. they don't even see the neo-lib con job for what it is.

Jess said...

I'm not so troubled by the shit in Bagram as I am by Gitmo. Our torturers shouldn't have the benefit of a Caribbean vacation while plying their trade.

That said, "Anonymous", the dynamic you describe certainly obtains, but if it's as bad as you contend (even libertarians may be conned? what a crazy world!), what is the way out? If we can't trust any political narrative, no matter how wingnutty, how should we vote?

(alternatively, who should we shoot first?)

Montag said...

If we can't trust any political narrative, no matter how wingnutty, how should we vote?

were you listening to the Dude's story?

nony said...

cf. who was it, Lyotard? Inter alia.

This is now now.

SteveB said...

they are in thrall to the opinions they receive through the spirit box.

And yet we have a majority of Americans opposed to the war in Afghanistan, even though the've never seen anyone on their TV who is opposed to the war in Afghanistan. How did that happen?

Montag's is the only viable explanation of how "progressive friends" can take the absolute "other ideas" screwing they just got from Nobama on medical insurance, yet continue to do anything but hate him.

Well, there's this, from a commenter over at Digbys:

The bottom line is that if the final bill doesn't have a robust public option in it, then this Nader-blaming lifetime Democrat will never vote for a Democrat again, no matter what. It will be the final proof that the only option is to help support a third party, even if there are minimal or no gains in the short term.

That seems encouraging, doesn't it?


and libtards are worse, if only for their smugness.

Yeah, I can't stand that libtard smugness. Think they've got it all figured out, and have nothing but scorn for the rest of us. Assholes, every last one of 'em.

Agi said...

I am the walrus.

Inkberrow said...

What Yglesias and his ideological fellow-travelers find "weird" is de rigeur just about everwhere else on the globe. Then again, Yglesias et al don't consider the dynamic to be "weird" anywhere but in the States (we're rich and powerful but not a dictatorship of the People, you see). For instance, we'd never hear mention from Yglesias and his ilk about the heartlessly rigorous enforcement of Mexican borders and immigration laws as against poor Guatemalan "undocumented workers".

The dynamic in question? Nationalism. The always-sizable, cosmopolitan "My Country First" cadre. For all his buffoonery and crony-enriching, Bush put America first without apology. Obama is viewed by a large contingent of Americans to be first and foremost a Bad America globalist who's consolidating the best context and platform from which to midwife the sovereignty-ceding changes he'd like to implement, for the International Good.

Montag said...

we have a majority of Americans opposed to the war in Afghanistan, even though the've never seen anyone on their TV who is opposed to the war in Afghanistan. How did that happen?

an opinion poll? really? 51% oppose the war (with a 3% margin of error,) and the very same poll revealed "60 percent of Americans approve of how Obama has handled the situation in Afghanistan." see it all depends on how you ask the question.

but more to the point, do you deny there is a disconnect between what people claim to be their ideals, and what behavior they are willing to not only tolerate, but defend, from their rulers (depending on which team they pull for?) i posit that these people who appear to hold inconsistent views are not reacting to the world as it is, or how it could be, but rather to the world as it is presented to them.

also, what is a "libtard?"

Anonymous said...

you've convinced me: obama=bushx100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

liberal+retard

Montag said...

liberal+retard

thanks. that is how i read it at first, but Jess seemed to read it as 'libertarian+retard' and i wonder how SteveB was reading it.

Rixt Rassman said...

Happy belated 9-11, yinz libtards, contards, anarchotards, tardigrades, etc. IOZ, the notion that nineeleveners, even those who self-identify as conservative, didn't "evince skepticism during the Bush years" is pretty silly. That aside, incisive as usual.

Pat said...

And so the glorious circle of tu quoque is complete and grinds all argument to a halt. Huzzah!

But really: Yglesias? I'd call him a hardcore Democrat, which is hardly the same thing as a liberal. Plus, I'd say he's entertaining and a little engaging, but usually shallow and light on the background. He's that kid from junior high who the teacher loved because he asked a lot of smart-sounding lateral questions, when all the kids knew he was doing so to drive the teacher on a tangent. If you're going to play ball with a scarecrow, then can we counter all of your posts with the drivel from Reason?

Cüneyt said...

So Inkberrow, do you actually believe that these newfound protesters are anxious because they believe that Bush put America first (except when he didn't), and Obama doesn't?

How do they (or you, since you're speaking for them) define America or its interests? How do they (or anybody) know what's good for America, when that has been, for as long as we have recorded it, defined by what has been good for its most powerful communities?

And I may well hate myself for inviting further partisan explosions, but since you never really answer me anyway, I figured I might take a chance.

Kafka said...

Obama said he supported the death penalty for child molesters- that's pretty remarkable coming from a biracial man who taught constitutional law...

IOZ said...

Rixt - by nineeleveners, I meant Beckian nine-twelvers. Poor coinage on my part. I did not mean to imply the so-called Truth Movement was unskeptical of M. Boosh.

Anonymous said...

I guess it would be funnier if the Tea Baggers weren't the only ones in the whole damn country protesting the government's recent spending spree. Yeah, they may be white-trash and mockably hypocritical, but at least they're doing something.


Wait, this post was about making fun of liberals? Nevermind.

drip said...

they are unthinking, yet engaged. (in the political process.) so there is a sort of consistency in it. quite spectacular really. This is true. This is spectacularly true, because in America you are deemed to support a position that you can articulate, and because most Americans get their articulation from the spiritbox (damn, that's sweet) they need only repeat the words from the cool medium to appear hot, engaged and thinking. And yet they are cold, idle, and thoughtless.

They have no idea what the fuck they are saying. Obama is a socialist (slap) fascist (slap) socialist (slap). Nicholson and Dunaway explicate while Huston waits offscreen. The idea of examining Obama is an unknown process. His weaknesses are so glaring that he could not stand up to actual scrutiny, so we get these odd little discussions about how bad Bush was or Obama is without doing as M suggests, and actually doing a 10th grade level compare and contrast, let alone subject either man to evaluation on his own terms. I remember when somebody or other (H Meirs maybe) was castigated for calling Bush the most intelligent man ever. I don't have a clue, but the same discussion could be had about Obama with the same results after we trade uniforms. He'll still be an imperialist war monger or hero to those history has left behind or some such nonsense. I love them, but sooner or later, we're going to have to face the fact we're a nation of goddamn morons.

SteveB said...

do you deny there is a disconnect between what people claim to be their ideals, and what behavior they are willing to not only tolerate, but defend, from their rulers (depending on which team they pull for?)

Right at this very moment, I'm "tolerating" all sorts of things that I claim to oppose, because I'm not doing a damn thing to stop them. And I'm not alone in this, right? Lots of people (a majority, even) say they oppose one - or both - of our wars, but what do they do about it? We could explain this as an example of mass hypocrisy, or we could note that those people don't see any effective actions that they could take that would bring the world into closer alignment with their ideals.

In short, I have a problem with the word "tolerate," because you might as well say we "tolerated" the rising of the sun this morning. As for "defend", well, some liberals do and some don't. I know a lot of people who voted for Obama, and I don't hear any of them defending him now.

Regarding the poll, my point was that large numbers of people can get an idea into their heads even if that idea hasn't been put there by their masters in the corporate media. Seems like evidence of free-thinking, or something.

Montag said...

SteveB, i think you are arguing against a point i was not trying to make. which was that "teatimers and birthbaggers and [Beckian nine-twelvers] and so on," on the right, (and similar contingents on the left,) are remarkable less because they are backward racist rubes, (or smug elitist blowhards,) and more because they are easily manipulated by the system.

Fledermaus said...

To be honest if tye gopers were ranting about government detention and erosion of the warrant requirement i could give them some props.

But instead its all feverish delusions about omnipotent community organizers helping themselves to tens of thousands of thier money (nevermind you that man behind the curtan), while communists and/or socalists wield enourmous power on the government dime to sap and impurify all of our bodily fulids.




If only. . .

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

It's too bad that polls are inescapably unreliable, especially the ones which purport to reach an affirmative on a supposed 51% of a non-TV-watching public.

That's a nice stinking pile of bull feces right there. America, where the TV is a God, is also the place where almost everyone watches at least 2 hours of the shit daily but swears they don't even have a TV... or if you are in their house and staring at the centerpiece 72" plasma screen bonanza taking up their whole living room, they'll say they almost never watch the thing.

Yeah, I found a poll the other day that said SteveB hasn't posted a funny or informative comment in over 12 years. Really, I swear I did.

.........................

Say, Steve -- what would you consider "doing something" about those things you don't approve of?

Montag said...

re: my last comment

...point i was not trying to make. which was that "teatimers...

"which" should have been, "my point"

Enron said...

What's the big deal with Joe Wilson, anyways?

cemmcs said...

What's the big deal with Joe Wilson, anyways?

He's been a good friend to House. he proved that Obama was not born in Niger and, if you look closely, you may occasionally see just a hint of a smile.

cemmcs said...

I'm sorry. I confused James Wilson, Joe Wilson and George Wilson with Joe Wilson.

Christopher said...

One of the things I didn't realize until Obama was elected is how the rhetoric of "Democrat Vs. Republican" can be almost entirely subsumed by the rhetoric of "Party in power Vs. Party out of power".

I mean, back in the Bush years the Democrats were all "Big Government is scary! Dissent is Patriotic!" And the Republicans were all "We can't take you people seriously if you're all shrill. The President and Country deserve respect, no matter how much you disagree".

And now that the Democrats are in power both sides have seamlessly adapted the rhetoric of their mortal enemies.

SteveB said...

America, where the TV is a God...

Right, and for eight years our TV God has been telling us that Afghanistan is a noble cause and "the good war." President SuperJesus Black Reagan himself, through the Godlike medium of television, has told us it's the "central front in the war on terror" and a "war of necessity" that must be won.

And when we finally get around to asking the public what they think, what's the response? "Nah. Don't like it. Let's get out."

Bad example? OK, how about the majority of Americans who support single-payer health care even though they've never seen a single person on their God-TVs arguing for it?

I look at a result like that and think that maybe people are happy to get their entertainment from the TV. but when it comes to real life questions, like who we should be at war with, or what kind of health care system we have, they look to other sources for guidance.

On the other hand, if your self-esteem is wrapped up in the notion that you're the only person who sees through the lies, then all of these polls are inconvenient, and can be waved away with random observations made while visiting other peoples' homes.

Montag said...

what does what the majority of Americans think/want have to do with anything? US politics? it's all theater. all the system requires is a token minority (the more vocal the better) of useful idiots.

there is no "real life" anymore.

Mr.Fundamental said...

apparently SteveB has never had a statistics course before in his life.

Mr.Fundamental said...

SteveB and Nutellaontoast are all like, "well IOZ, you're wrong, see, because it could be like this." And then IOZ is all like, "there are (and here's a sample of) a million real reasons why it's not that, despite the fact that it could be."

And we are left where we are, on the Internet.

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt---

I "never answer you"?? Mais non, we've been spending quite a bit of time here together, considering. Regardless, I never want you to feel neglected.

The D.C. protesters? Many (like me) are well right of the now-discredited, statist, open-borders neocons like Kristol and Bush; many fear Obama intends to cultivate a perpetual-crisis milieu (pace FDR) for sweeping centralized government power-grabs; many consider public health tantamount to with a modern mutation of socialism, or the downhill path thereto. They are all correct and incorrect to some extent. Many of the above moonlight as useful idiots for Big Pharma and Big Insurance.

Determining what's "good for America" is above my pay grade. Some American pols and their constituents err on the side of "My Country Right Or Wrong"; some on the side of "Gosh, you're upset. How can we make it up to you?" Given history and unchanging human nature, I stand with the former.

Charlie Sheen said...

Just wanted to interject that I, for one, voted for Obama and totally expected him to keep fighting in Afghanistan, and keep the bases open in Iraq.
I don't like it, but I went in with my eyes wide open on those counts.
I think it was a strategic blunder to go after health care this year. I'll be pissed if nothing substantive is done on the cost side, but ya get what you pay for - and last year my vote only cost about 95 cents.
So whaddyagonnaduuu??

Brian M said...

"Determining what's "good for America" is above my pay grade. Some American pols and their constituents err on the side of "My Country Right Or Wrong"; some on the side of "Gosh, you're upset. How can we make it up to you?" Given history and unchanging human nature, I stand with the former."

What a great "Good German" you are, Inkbarrel

Inkberrow said...

Brian M---

Sounds like I have been living in Brian Land! Two choices for Americans---Goering or Petain?

Cüneyt said...

But if you can't say what's good for America, how can you support those who unequivocally say that whatever they say is good for America? Are they priests, then, for your nationalism? "America, right or wrong," I hear (maybe mistakenly) you say, but you can't say what's good for America, what's right, or what's wrong.

Mr.Fundamental said...

"stop making sense."

it's tough to remove oneself from a conversation when one won't remove oneself from a conversation.

Brian M said...

Cüneyt said...
But if you can't say what's good for America, how can you support those who unequivocally say that whatever they say is good for America? Are they priests, then, for your nationalism? "America, right or wrong," I hear (maybe mistakenly) you say, but you can't say what's good for America, what's right, or what's wrong.

Why, it is whatever The Leader says it is, silly goose. Obey!

Of course, only a white, middle aged, male, upper class "CONSERVATIVE" can truly earn the title of "Leader" hence the horror, yes the horror, about the current Imposter.

(Note...I agree with Ioz that said Imposter totally serves the interests that his predecessors serve and have no illusions about how revolutionary his administration can be, but...)


I have to admit I just don't understand "true conservatives." What are you trying to conserve? There is no aristocratic class with "breeding" and "taste" and "tradition" and Divine authority that a true conservative can support. Our casino economy business elite are basically all tacky arrivistes to the man, and the economic system that you all worship demands this and destroys the "traditions" and "community" and other claptrap you claim you are supporting. Would you really die for God, Country, and Sir Cheney of Halliburton? Or the Counts of Goldman Sachs? Really? Wow. Just wow.

Solar Hero said...

the drivel from Reason?

Lots of people (a majority, even) say they oppose one - or both - of our wars, but what do they do about it?

You re-submit your W-4 for 9 deductions (9 deductions is not a red flag for audit). You will get a lot more of your money. You take it and live a peacable life. You do not pay it back when the IRS asks you to.

Look, there IS a difference between Dems and Repubs, I'm not the first to say it: the Republicans can drive their base to action, the Democrates try to neuter their base....

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Steverino, you are as bad at guessing what makes me tick as you are at understanding when you're being lied to with polls.

Bravo, Steverino. Good show, and all that. You're a salutary example of the robotic pwoggie... believing what fits your worldview is inerrant, and what doesn't is loopy megalomania!

Anonymous said...

"OK, how about the majority of Americans who support single-payer health care even though they've never seen a single person on their God-TVs arguing for it?"

Holy shit, you mean people want health care and they want someone else to pay for it? Stop the presses.

Rixt Rassman said...

IOZ - So I figured, but thanks for clarifying. The so-called Truth Movement (currently typified by Loose Change-lobbing undergrads) and Beck's Project for a New American 9-12 are both inside jokes, just not the SAME inside joke, and so merit separate, specific criticisms... as you know. Peace in space, homie.

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt---

I will look out for what's best for me, and try to help elect leaders who are qualified to look out for America, while impinging on my liberty interests only as needed. My "right or wrong" quote was proffered as a boundary-marker, not as a credo.


Brian M.---

I don't know from "true" conservative---"conservative", standing alone, will more than suffice. For me, Pat Buchanan, e.g., not Bush or Dole. Basically, the dividing line between conservative and progressive is an expression of Hobbes's pessimistic conception of human nature ("Repel boarders") versus Rousseau's humanist optimism ("There ain't nothin' we can't do, with the right institutions").

Cüneyt said...

But Inkberrow, you differentiated between Bush--whom you said supported America right or wrong--and Obama, who presumably doesn't. Is that a difference in marketing among your niche, or is that grounded in fact? I guess what I'm saying is, why don't you see their sins in common like the rest of us?

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt---

Again, I said Bush would err on that end of the jingoistic spectrum, Obama the other. Meanwhile facts, words, and conduct continue as always to inform my and other assessments, even if sloganeering perspectivism often turns that on its head, and dispositively for all too many. I said I myself "don't know what's best for america", meaning I'm far from qualified myself to take on that complex responsibility, even in a blog comments section. Like Potter Stewart and obscenity, however, I generally know America First and Blame America First when I see them. As do you, Cuneyt--you just have different labels for them.

Cüneyt said...

Sure I do. I just don't think they're as essential as you seem to. I take them for the labels they are and then I look deeper. Why do you insist on parting company with us when we do so?

Inkberrow said...

Cuneyt--

Fine, so long as "look deeper" than labels doesn't translate into "eschew" or "ignore" labels. Nor should we be satified with labels alone. But like stereoptypes, labels are often useful, in moderation, and the pejoratives associated with them spring from their general accuracy, not inaccuracy.

Brian M said...

What does "supporting "America"" really mean anyway? Is there a unitary "America" that one can "support"? I somehow don't think so.

I mean, most people would agree that the Iraq war was a costly failure that probably did not accomplish much for "American" interests over the long term. But...and this is the important thing, it certainly made a lot of money for a politically connected class of profiteers and hangers on and weapons merchants, no?

If you had said I support George Bush because he looks after the interests of the petroleum industry and defense contractors and his buddies and family relations and retainers better than Obama would, that would make more sense. Of course, where I might disagree is that Obama is largely catering to this same crowd. He's just not "one of us" so they hate his presumption.

Cüneyt said...

Brian, thank you for stating a point that I failed to make. Inkberrow does not define America, but he knows who best serves it.

Brian M said...

That's the problem, Cuynet...there is this implicit assumption that there is AN America that can be served. I am skeptical. He claims to be a student of history and cynical about human nature yet falls back on quasi-mystical nationalism and faith in "the leaders" (hence my Good German reference). The executives at Haliburton MUST know what is right for AMERICA. And TEH CHILDRENS.

Cüneyt said...

And Obama, or whoever, must not, and BLAMES America, though it's not clear how. IOZ's discussed how the rhetoric's hardly changed.

And the marketing of Loves America and Hates America is somehow elementary, rather than bullshit peddled to divide us.

Brian M said...

Ah...but is there really an "us"? One "us" that can truly be said to have opinions and needs? :)

The Solution is Dissolution. Even if it is nasty, brutish, short. :)

Cüneyt said...

Well, Inkberrow will probably be annoyed that I can't let this go, but his neo-Victorian view of empire and native extermination is perfectly congruent with the problem of Us, as you describe, Brian. We can only be civilized when we describe others as lacking in this or some other virtue. We can only be Us by making it clear that others are Not Us.

I know, I know--a total cliche. That's why I'm so surprised when I find that yes, people still believe this shit.

Have we flogged him enough in his absence yet? Now I'm starting to feel bad.

Consumatopia said...

You can argue about how much Obama resembles Bush, but there doesn't seem to be any liberal equivalent of Dick Cheney--someone who's proud of the surveillance and torture and defends them in partisan terms--i.e. claim that people should oppose Obama because he's insufficiently willing to act outside the law in pursuit of the nation's security.

Civil libertarians who back Obama are in the same position as fiscal libertarians who back the GOP--they're backing hypocrites, yes, but hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays virtue. Better to back the guy who's ashamed of his sin rather than the guy who's proud of his sin, who promises to appoint judges to enable future presidents to sin more.

The positions of fiscal libertarians backing Obama or civil libertarians who backed Bush are, of course, far more incoherent.

Anonymous said...

Hello. And Bye.