Who Is IOZ?: Nobody's Business but the Turks

Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Nobody's Business but the Turks

So. Turkey. How about it? Well, it has been a reasonable interlocutor between "The West" and whomever it is that we're not talking to because a) we don't speak their langauges and b) terrorism! Boo! It wanted to join the EU but France was like we have enough Muslims, kthnx, buhbiyee, bisous, kiss-kiss, ciao, nique ta mère, etc. Turkey's PM chastised Israel for needlessly killing Muslims when Israel was needlessly killing Muslims, which is worse than needlessly killing Muslims. Turkey suggested that those crowing loudest about nuclear disarmament might do a little themelves. It behaved peacefully toward its neighbors and is seeking a partnership with Russia, the most powerful regional player beside the EU. In other words, Turkey is behaving as a rational, transparently motivated, easily understood political entity. Naturally, we are very, very worried!

55 comments:

Mr.Fundamental said...: Mr. Lebowski, this is Fred Dynarski
with the Southern Cal Bowling League.
I just got a, an informal report,
uh, that a uh, a member of your team,
uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a loaded
weapon during league play--; 10:35 AM
zencomix said...: The squeaky wheel will get the grease. Expect some sort of aid package, probably military in nature. Maybe a cut of the Afghani Opium Trade.; 10:35 AM
Gridlock said...: Yeah, if there's one thing Turkey has missed out on it's the international drugs trade..; 10:57 AM
Taktix® said...: But... but... but... they can't let them in the E.U., the "Sick Old Man of Europe" is too full of brown people with their funny religion and pastries...; 11:06 AM
Dan said...: I hope that's a reference to the Four Lads and not They Might Be Giants.; 11:47 AM
Quietdown said...: Since nobody else has risen to the occasion, I'll play apostrophe cop today:
Turks'; 12:35 PM
NutellaonToast said...: Apostrophe cop, I believe it'd be "Turk's"; 12:41 PM
Enron said...: Dude, this is a league game, this determines who enters the next round robin. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?; 1:13 PM
Anonymous said...: You can say it's their own business, but I think they've still got their eyes on Vienna. If only Christendom hadn't got all frumpy and middle-aged. Nobody's got the balls to mount a proper crusade any more.
-- sglover; 1:32 PM
AlanSmithee said...: Now if that don't beat all! Here we take the good time and trouble to slaughter every last Indian in the West...and for what? So we can appoint a sheriff that's blacker than any Indian.

I am de-pressed.; 4:39 PM
Inspector Lee said...: It behaved peacefully toward its neighbors

It invaded northern Iraq and killed a lot of Kurds (who happen to be Muslims). The USA sited short range nuclear ballistic missiles on its territory during the early 60s (see the Cuban Missile Crisis). Historically, Turkey and Russia have not got on.; 6:04 PM
Gridlock said...: I know a fair few Greeks who'd beg to differ.; 6:32 PM
Anonymous said...: What's with the Thanksgiving jokes so early?; 7:45 PM
Inkberrow said...: The West needs a strong Turkey. The Turks, Persians, and Arabs loathe each other just enough to curb their Muslim-imperialist enthusiasm.; 8:01 PM
Adam said...: I thought it was was a reference to Tiny Toons.; 9:10 PM
8 said...: Yeah give Constantinople--and Hagia Sophia--back to the Hellenes, pasha mutha-f-ers. Then we talk; 9:37 PM
Cüneyt said...: Inkberrow: Explain the Muslim-imperialism of the Turkish people.; 9:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Inkberrow: Explain the Muslim-imperialism of the Turkish people.

Goddammit, Constantinople will be ours again!
-- sglover; 11:19 PM
Soj said...: Turkey should be the "ideal" state for the empire.

After all, they purged all the troublesome "others" (except for the Kurds, who were just ruthlessly repressed), only the "right" language is allowed, they vastly simplified the alphabet so even the rubes can read, the religious nuts are all suppressed, prisoners are treated savagely, the press is heavily censored and best of all, a core of "faithful" generals steps in anytime the politicians get too out of hand.

What's there not to love?; 1:07 AM
8 said...: Maybe make the Deal hinge on something tangible: like monotheism banned, and legalized opium

WHOOP; 9:42 AM
Christopher M. said...: All business is the empire's business.; 9:45 AM
Inkberrow said...: Cuneyt---

By all means, though you could easily have looked this up yourself, mister! Try Wikipedia.

Pan-Muslim military imperialist efforts have been spearheaded during different eras by Arabs, Persians, or Turks. The Ottoman Turks, for instance, were a warlike set indeed, ousted less an a century ago! I figure that the number of times anti-West yappers here and elsewhere cite the Crusades, that Lepanto for instance might warrant mention as well. Yesterday's news, as opposed to the day before yesterday's....; 10:16 AM
Christopher M. said...: Oh, if only those anti-West yappers would just get over those itty bitty Crusades. And the Inquisition, why bother with a little thing like the Inquisition? And the genocide of the inhabitants of the Americas, do we have to relive a little thing like that every time this comes up? And chattel slavery, and the rape of the Philippines, and the Spanish-American War, and Guatemala and Iran and Chile and Korea and Vietnam...; 10:46 AM
Gridlock said...: Cyprus; 10:50 AM
Chris said...: I don't see what Cyprus has to do with anything, Walter.; 11:08 AM
Inkberrow said...: Christopher M---

That equivalency is a Pyrrhic victory for you, methinks, but you're welcome to it. Yup, Muslims ARE as bad or worse as those Christians and that litany of woe you cited. You win! So, do you relexively despise Muslims and the Islamic imperialist tradition now too?; 11:26 AM
Gridlock said...: Cyprus is why Turkey isn't In the EU.

Well, that and the darkies.; 12:32 PM
Inkberrow said...: Gridlock---

Yeah. Dark is the new light.; 12:34 PM
stras said...: Yup, Muslims ARE as bad or worse as those Christians and that litany of woe you cited

Based on... what? Pile up the bodies, Inky, and you'll find the Christians have killed - and are currently killing! - more than the Muslims have ever killed, by at least an order of magnitude. But go ahead and keep screeching about the Islamofascists if it'll make you feel better.; 12:36 PM
8 said...: Uh oh, stras with the predictable PC-postmod-theologian's lightweight justification (and probably inaccurate considering Tamerlane, the ottomans, not to say the muslim paki's mass murders in bengladesh 71 or so).

Xtian-liberals now get instant PC credibility by defending Islam--not that they really approve of it, but it's good for bidness (not unknown among jewish leftists either). Object to any aspect of sharia, or promote secularism in any form, and yr sidin' with Zionists--that's how ZizekSpeak operates.; 12:48 PM
8 said...: Uh oh, stras with the predictable PC-postmod-theologian's lightweight justification (and probably inaccurate considering Tamerlane, the ottomans, not to say the muslim paki's mass murders in bengladesh 71 or so).

Xtian-liberals now get instant PC credibility by defending Islam--not that they really approve of it, but it's good for bidness (not unknown among jewish leftists either). Object to any aspect of sharia, or promote secularism in any form, and yr sidin' with Zionists--that's how ZizekSpeak operates.; 12:49 PM
Christopher M. said...: 8, dude, do you have any idea what any of those big words you just used actually mean?; 2:12 PM
stras said...: Yep, it was Muslims who were running the gas chambers at Auschwitz, and Muslims who nuked Nagasaki, and Muslims who are currently raining Predator drones down on Afghan wedding parties. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to gain "PC credibility."; 2:16 PM
Sibel said...: Turkey employs, or has employed such international war criminals as Bob Livingston, Dennis Hastert, Doug Feith, and Paul Wolfowitz. That alone should condemn their government.; 2:50 PM
Jess said...: All you losers whining about massacres and whatnot are missing the point. Winners do that shit. Always have. When you can press a button, unleash all that carnage, and still feign some sort of urbane distaste for the process, you're pretty close to total victory. If, instead, you have to recruit unhinged nihilists and teenagers from all across your benighted civilization to blow up themselves and a couple of marines, you're pretty close to total defeat, and you know it. In a generation, all this will be a regretful memory, like Auschwitz and the Trail of Tears.; 3:08 PM
Anonymous said...: you have to recruit unhinged nihilists and teenagers from all across your benighted civilization

What, you joined ROTC, too?; 3:49 PM
Jess said...: Hahaha! That's perfect!; 3:57 PM
Enron said...: Ahem, losers are also political entities who spend billions of dollars to invade other countries and impose foreign puppet governments, only to be kicked out because they can't understand why some people not in the know might be pissed that they came to visit but decided to stay. Blessed are we who are the losers.; 4:47 PM
8 said...: More like, do you understand them, Chrissy? Not enough snark for ya, hepcat? Maybe wiki the east pakistan phunn of '71 or so for starters--or Ottoman/Armenian nightmares from around turn of the century. Or at least ask your local marxist/multiculturalist boss whether that's cool.

Better question though, do you or do you not attend a fundamentalist church?? I suspect yes (many xtian fundies now have no problem pretending to be the hip izmaeli sort). Does the tone bother you, Chrissy? This ain't the NY times op-ed page.; 5:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Marxists. Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism...; 6:53 PM
Cüneyt said...: I do not deny the Turkish state's authoritarianism. Nor do I deny Turkish imperialism.

Inkberrow, can you distinguish between "Muslim-imperialism" (your coinage) and imperialism by Muslims?; 10:35 PM
Christopher M. said...: Sorry, 8, I tuned out once you started sounding like a retarded beatnik.; 11:08 PM
8 said...: There were no "beatniks," rube, except in some ad-men's phantasies--the term was "beat", as anyone who read On the Road knows. . You sound like one of stras's gang: the Peoria postmodernists! Whoa. You're no Heildegger either, puto

I asked you a question anyway, Chrissy. What church do you attend, squareski? The Ted Haggard Chapel perhaps.

Most of college-town learns of the history of the Ottoman turks probably from Baron Munchausen or somethin'. Or Wikiland. Perhaps search like "armenian/greek/jewish heads on stakes" for starters.; 12:51 AM
Anonymous said...: Stras,

You are slightly confused about which side of the Konzentrationslager oven door were the Christians.

How many divisions does the pope have, again?; 6:16 AM
Cüneyt said...: And while I'm waiting on Inkberrow to explain his positions regarding the Turks' presumed current "Muslim-imperialism," (which it seems he can only defend using historic examples and modern examples of authoritarianism, which together hardly complete the picture he'd like to paint; Walls of Vienna, right?) I'd like to observe that really, the comparison of Christians and Muslims is about as satisfying, and amounts to as much, as the who was worse: Hitler or Stalin game.

I'm not going to tell you whose history I learned more about in college, or high school, or middle school. Whose dick is bigger, right? Turkish studies are "hip" in some parts, but not nearly so much as Kurdish in the IR/IA bunch. Meanwhile, Armenians have had, what, no voice, right? No voice except the ear of every person who wants to be on the right side of the genocide debate, every Democrat who wants to shore up California. Does any of this amount to power? Some of it, maybe. Does it change what actually happened? Not really. It's a fucking press war, and now it's turning into a contest of who can dig up a people that nobody's ever heard of. I mean, respect to all the tiny Muslim peoples and the tiny Christian peoples, but Jesus Christ.

And Oliver Stone's Midnight Express, what the fuck?! That stuff's not even in the goddamn book. We Turks, man, we're so persecuted. I'm going to go make 10,000 Kurds homeless, just to feel better about myself.

Anyway, IOZ's point, you bunch of idiots, was about Turkey's PM (who's a dick) criticism of Israel, which was taken as worse than the behavior he was criticizing in the first place.

But some of you, in your tired schema of communicating, went straight to the "Muslim vs. Christian" mystification debate, which, congratulations, shifts the conversation off of anything current, ongoing, and relevant. But hey, let's hear about some people who got brutalized by the Turks. We've been in the Middle East for more than a thousand years, in Anatolia for 900 years, and Constantine's city for 550 years. We killed a bunch of people. We also did some other things, but that's not so relevant at the moment. What I want to say that I find it really funny that some other people (with whom we have a crazy history) have been in Judah and Samaria for about 60 years. They haven't killed nearly as many people as we did, but I say we give them time. Anyway, the funny part is that I'm sure folks like 8 and Inkberrow feel the same way about the Israelis as they feel about the Turks, right?; 9:40 AM
Gridlock said...: http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/418-the-turkish-islamic-empire/

I believe this is referred to as the "Baader Meinhof Phenomenon"; 10:59 AM
8 said...: Israelis....turks

who's playing the cheesy dichotomy-lite game, now Cüneyt...

8 supports moderate, pragmatic policies--say those of Hadrian 70 AD or so. The empire must control Anatolia, and the persian horde, yet also send a legion to manage those nasty rebels in Judea.; 11:14 AM
Cüneyt said...: I was trying to reveal hypocrisy, and standards incompletely applied. I assert no dichotomy, save the hypothetical ones floated here and elsewhere, which always disappoint. Turks are invaders, and invaders are bad, except when they aren't. And of course, the Muslim/Christian thing ignores when Christians are themselves the invaders and imperialists, and Muslims the natives. Of course, I suppose we could say that Circassians and Chechens are disloyal, because they converted, so we have reason to dislocate them, because again, population transfer is bad, until it isn't.

It's not wrong when we do it (whoever "we" is for the moment), basically.

And yeah, some Turks suck. Most Turks suck, honestly. We are really breaking ground here. And again, dancing around the original point, which is valid and unassaulted. If you want to say Erdogan's a dick, or a hypocrite, sure, but somehow, in discussing whether his criticism of Israel was valid or not, you reach for... What, World War One? Okay. Maybe that's relevant. I'd say that Kurdish rights (and abuses thereof) are relevant. But are some of you clowns actually bringing up the territorial ambitions of the empire at its height? Really? Because if we're going that route, I'd like to talk about my policy critique of Herod the Great. And I'm a big believer in history, but let me ask you: what would we call a guy who, every time he discussed Israeli politics, reached for his Old Testament? Other than an asshole, I mean.

Anyway, if you have a substantive point, I'm sorry I missed it. We already have Mr. Fun, and so I feel your services are not required. I just tire of people who immediately take a conversation out of its details and into some generalities based on vague stereotypes and half-assed observations. I have no idea what Tamerlane signifies to the present debate, though I can almost hear Inkberrow making some observation of Muslims' predilection for killing Muslims with every confidence that he is saying something shocking and bold. But honestly, maybe you're going for pithy and historically enlightened, but I just wanted to say that, to me, it comes off as sophistry, and sophistry that doesn't seem to be backed up by any real insight. You mock Wikipedia, but your analysis goes no further than citing events and historical feuds, ghastly murders and territorial ambitions, and hoping they make your point for you.

Oh, and we've already got an Inkberrow, too, so the little sniping about Marxist/multiculturalist handlers and sundry images you think we embody in real life? A little redundant.; 11:40 AM
8 said...: Oh , laying down the communication protocols, eh comrade. Sounds like you want marxists--well, at least to help the cause. The imams consider Marxism heresy of the first sort. So, IOZ wasn't anarchist, or even libertarian--another Bukharin.com.

The point concerned secularism.
Pax Romana upheld a CIVIL code, rather than theocratic, or monarchic. The courts were essentially secular during the Five good emperors, etc. See Gibbons --as good a guide as the latest Zizekian pipe dream. Or don't. We should object to the au courant suggestion that any sort of secularism is doomed to fail (or necessarily means the end of faith)--. Ever read Gibbons? I doubt it.

EU does have sound reasons to be concerned about muslim insurgency, including the turkish variety. The history of the last 100 years offers ample support for that claim.

This isn't your class, or the Economist, either. I'm not here to prove something. I'm here to mock pompous academics, including the usual American-bashing european leftist who thinks Lacan holds the answers to all economic and social problems.; 12:29 PM
Cüneyt said...: Discussing communication is usually only offensive to someone whose interest is not in communication. I'm not pushing orthodoxy; I'm just trying to understand your point while making sure mine aren't misunderstood. I call that basic necessity, and also courtesy.

Anyway, I have read Gibbons. And from there, I'll leave you to play with whatever mental images you've assembled of me or anyone else speaking here; it would be exhausting to chart all the assumptions you've made based on what little I've actually said about myself and my agenda. Say I'm an Islamofascist Marxist schoolteacher or student or something. I'm not really sure where you get any of that, but to be clear: I'm not interested.

You say you're here not to prove anything. You're an unequivocal success. But at the very least, try to be entertaining about it next time, 'kay?; 1:02 PM
8 said...: How about you shut your byatch mouth perp, or move back to yr favorite NAMBLA site, for I call INS. Some of us aren't in the cutie-pie PC union.

Did I say islamofascist, chump? For that matter, did you even understand Hitchens' point, however obvious? Unlikely. And do you have a solution to Hume's fact-value distinction? Unlikely.; 1:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Shit, I know this troll. Go back to Kotsko's, dude.; 1:53 PM
Cüneyt said...: Cute. Like I said: sophistry (and I'm being generous) without substance.

To answer your questions, No, Yes, and I try to keep it in mind. But now who's being academic? Apply the shit you cite to something that someone was talking about. Anybody can cite, point out, refer. But who can analyze, who can value, who can--dare I say it?--actually think and not merely think about? Let alone communicate that thought.; 1:53 PM
8 said...: The sophist would be you. You, merely chanting the usual vague PC line--mistaking mere tactics for some type of obligation (hence the point on Hume, which you didn't understand). Or in effect a crypto-nationalist. Jus' another anti-rationalist. You want to pen some long hearfelt, PC, whiny NY times letter to editor in praise of the turks, go for it, p**o.

Some of us don't buy the line that Marx himself blessed muslim theocracy. Not that it matters. Marx the journalist usually supported the cause of poor german and english workers (not always, and not always correctly). You're not too interested in history, though.

For that matter, like most chi chi leftists you seem in need of some type of aesthetic-metaphysical credo. Some Heidegger out of the skies, or Edward Said, maybe Ghaddafi--or the Prophet!!! to like offer you a vision?? Phuck off. You're not only the mockery of secular rationalism,or economic realism but of taste.

(hey Anny: I doubt that. Kotzko & co could use dime-sized holes in their heads as well).; 4:39 PM
Cüneyt said...: Man, Dane Cook's new shit is even worse.; 5:28 PM

Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Nobody's Business but the Turks

55 comments:

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