Monday, October 26, 2009

Renouncing Libertarianism Is Cuter than Kittens Riding on Puppies In Wagons Pulled by Miniature Ponies

Libertarians are just republicans who want to smoke weed.

-The Internet
When Kerry Howley made the irrefutable and yet quixotic point that any proper concern with liberty, whether practical or, ahem, merely philosophical, must grapple with the strictures of cultural mores and social conventions, for they affect the lives and freedom of those individuals with whose liberty libertarianism supposedly concerns itself equally to and sometimes more than the official acts and proscriptions and promulgations of the government-même, I made no comment, because honestly, this again? I like and respect Kerry. She is probably smarter than I am. I am sure she looks better in heels. Her efforts along these lines are perhaps noble, but nonetheless doomed. It is not so much that they lack merit--on the merits, she is correct--as that they make a sort of category error. The problem is not that many libertarians are unwilling to consider the broader implications of their philosophy, but rather, that libertarianism is not a philosophy, not even a "political ideology," as the more careful bet-hedgers might have it.

It is instead a lame, purely American third-party movement that sometimes appropriates the trappings of ideology in order to justify self-perpetuation in the face of a plurality-takes-all electoral system wholely inimical to minor parties. In reality, it is no more an ideology, let alone a philosophy, than is "Democrat" or "Republican." It is moderately more consistent than either major American political party because it has no constituency. In the absence of a coalition, coherence. This is nothing to brag about. Still yet, as Eugene Volokh et al. so often and ably demonstrate, in the classic Henley sumnation:
It’s not like Eugene Volokh thinks much of me, either, but I’ve always considered his specialty to be showy moral handwringing on the way to siding with Power anyway.
This is particularly apropos because Will Wilkinson finds Ilya Somin, who is not quite the patented moron as that blog's eponymous proprietor, undermining any notion that libertarianism constitutes anything other than an uproariously unsuccessful effort to turn classic American anti-Federal paranoia into a difference-splitting political third way that abjures both the moral paternalism of Republicans and the economic paternalism of Democrats (whatever any of that means) and thus gathers all together toward a new gilded age. Or something. Somin writes:
These points are distinct from Todd Seavey’s tactical argument in his critique of Kerry, where he points out that identification with one set of cultural values is likely to drive away potential allies for libertarianism. If libertarians are seen as aligned with cultural liberalism, it is likely to alienate cultural conservatives, and vice versa. Linking libertarianism to a narrow cultural agenda would be a mistake similar to Ayn Rand’s insistence that libertarianism entails atheism — a stance that did much to alienate potential supporters who were religious. At the same time, cultural “wedge issues” sometimes do make for good political strategy.
To which I say, Oh, please. Even a bastard term like "political ideology" encompasses more than mere coalition-building. The phrase "alienate potential supporters" is a dead giveaway.

I think it is high time that people like Kerry, who are rightly and righteously concerned with actual liberty, the actual freedom of human beings as individuals to construct and determine the paths of their own lives within their own families, communities, and countries, behave in their own rational best interest and stop calling themselves libertarians. I did! It was not difficult. Indeed, I would go so far as to call it . . . liberating to be unyoked from the ceaseless burden of shit-polishing. Libertarianism is the plaything of cossetted white Americans. That is a fact. In its relentless insistence on state-supremacy, it commits precisely the sin that Kerry identifies: it reifies that which it claims to seek to undermine. It is narrow and parochial, American. What has libertarianism got to say about life within failed states, or clerical democracies, or about Japan, or China, or Myanmar, or Nepal, or occupied Palestine, or Israel, or South Africa? What has it got to say about the construction of community, the nature of cooperative endeavor in the absence of coercion? Most libertarians aren't even willing to accept that property, their central fetish, is itself a cultural artifact, not a constant of nature.

And if the question finally becomes: well, then, what will we call ourselves? Then I suggest a question in reply: why must you call yourselves anything at all?

135 comments:

Mr.Fundamental said...

What the fuck are you talking about?!
This Chinaman is not the issue! I'm
talking about drawing a line in the
sand, Dude. Across this line you do
not, uh--and also, Dude, Chinaman is
not the preferred, uh. . . Asian-
American. Please.

IOZ said...

Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism.

Cüneyt said...

But we've retroactively declared Everybody from History Whom You Should Like a libertarian! It's like the Unification Church of political belief.

la Rana said...

I wouldn't shit in that pond.

IOZ said...

So what are you saying? When you get divorced you turn in your library card? You get a new license? You stop being Jewish?

Mr.Fundamental said...

BUT BUT BUT AYN RAND MAN. LIKE< TOTALLY.

SWOON

Anonymous said...

5,000 years of beautiful tradition from Moses to Sandy Koufax? You're goddamn right I'm living in the fucking past!

erin4iraq said...

It is narrow and parochial, American.

Yawn. Isn't this the point of all your posts?

Mr.Fundamental said...

It is narrow and parochial, American.

She's not my special lady, she's my
fucking lady friend. I'm just helping
her conceive, man!

periscopedepth said...

Brandt can't watch, though, or he has to pay a hundred.

Mr.Fundamental said...

only erin would take an insult as a substantive threat.

erin4iraq said...

What are you yammering on about now Mr. Fun? IOZ is about as threatening as a kitten riding a puppy, especially when he's wearing heels.

Rowan said...

What happened to faganarcholibertarianism? I liked that one. Though it's probably closer to fagananarchonihilism, really.

Anonymous said...

http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city

and on the other side of ham handed politics is this guy.

Josh K-sky said...

I'm not sure that if you're already calling out life within Occupied Palestine as life in a failed state that it makes sense to also list Israel. Right? Discriminatory, colonialist, sure, but if that's a failed state has there ever been a working one?

Anonymous said...

She is probably smarter than I am. I am sure she looks better in heels.

Nobody's smarter than you, baby. And I heard you look pretty fetching in stilettos.

Jess said...

Josh, I doubt our IOZ is calling either the Bank or the Strip a failed state. I mean, does the median citizen of any other Arab state have a higher standard of living? (That was rhetorical, but the answer is no, by the way.)

So let's judge states on their own terms, and I think we'll find that few have "failed".

Great post, IOZ!

Inspector Lee said...

What has it got to say about the construction of community, the nature of cooperative endeavor in the absence of coercion?

People, like, hook up, man, with other people who share their vibe. Don't bogart that joint, pass it over to me.

Enron said...

Fuck sympathy! I don't need your fuckin' sympathy, man, I need my fucking johnson!

TGGP said...

If "liberty" includes "positive liberty", than libertarianism is not actually about liberty and Kerry should not call herself a libertarian. Will actually had it right in his response to Feser that libertarianism is a strictly political doctrine. The motivation behind it is that it will lead to an expansion of positive liberty (for the most vulgar libertarian, through Wal-Mart driving down the price of consumer goods), but libertarianism is not about that. Positive liberty is removed off to the side as a private matter, and libertarianism merely attacks some obstacles to it. The fact that we are born without wings is also a restriction of positive liberty, but mass-producing jetpacks has nothing to do with libertarianism.

You might say, why isn't libertarianism concerned with reducing government interference AND feminism AND jetpacks? One answer is that libertarians are reductionist nerds who like to separate stuff into neat little modules. Another is that normative matters are highly uncertain (from my perspective, they are devoid of truth) and given such uncertainty we want to rely on a minimal set of them.

What to call yourself if you're not a libertarian? Maybe just kind of libertarian or libertarian on some issues. I'm willing to violate libertarianism on some things (murdering random people for their organs maybe) but I don't pretend those violations are actually libertarian. Some "structural libertarians" associated with things like Seasteading advocate a sort of "meta-libertarianism", or a free range in different institutional setups. Some may be actually libertarian, some may be socialist. Similarly, an actual libertarian society will allow islands of voluntary socialism, as in a kibbutz. The hidden motivation is that we believe some competition in governance will lead to more libertarian governance, just as competition between businesses leads to lower prices and better services. So my vision is of Wal-Mart stamping a human face forever. But if Kevin Carson is right that local mutualist enterprises would really outcompete the big chains, I'm down with that too.

I think folk-activist libertarianism is doomed no matter who it tries to appeal to. Seasteading is the only semi-serious idea any libertarians have come up for achieving a libertarian system.

IOZ said...

What do you need that for, Enron?

Christopher M. said...

You think that's a Schwinn!

NutellaonToast said...

"Then I suggest a question in reply: why must you call yourselves anything at all?"

But we've already made shirts and rented the Elk's Club! Plus we've got that ultimate game against the Green Party next month! I mean, what are we gonna do about our fucking facebook group?!?!?!

Montag said...

you think we're kidding and making with the funny stuff?

Ed said...

There is an excellent series of brief guides, and the one on political philosophy consistently refers to libertarians as "market anarchists". So now I find it hard to think of them as anything else.

IOZ said...

Just because we're bereaved doesn't mean we're saps!

TGGP said...

Someone consistent in their libertarianism must be an anarchist (open to modes of interaction including markets and more). Few are so consistent, which is why I only call myself an anarchist every other day of the workweek.

Enron said...

My only hope is that the big Lebowski kills me before the Germans can cut my dick off.

Anonymous said...

Great post IOZ.

So what is this "ceaseless burden of shit-polishing" that libertarians apparently endure? Anything to do with their "relentless insistence on state-supremacy"? Another point I'd like to see you expand.

Me? I am just a hapless anarchist who drinks heavily, and finds the greatest pleasure in the world is the high you get when striking a 4-iron 175 yds through a cold windy down-pour stiff to the pin.

And I could really give a fig about this "Dude" guy, but you are one damnned fine polemicist, better than Hitchens.

Anonymous said...

"Most libertarians aren't even willing to accept that property, their central fetish, is itself a cultural artifact, not a constant of nature."

Not just a cultural artifact, but actually a creation (ab initio, and in each moment anew) of the state.

Most people don't understand even the most basic tenets of the property system. Libertarians are among the worst offenders. If they bothered to familiarize themselves with the most rudimentary facts about the nature of property, they might understand how incoherent their ideology is.

The few times I've tried to ask libertarians about why property rights should be enforced by the state, they've usually started talking about God in one guise or another. Truly freaky.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

one of the anonymice:

Me? I am just a hapless anarchist who drinks heavily, and finds the greatest pleasure in the world is the high you get when striking a 4-iron 175 yds through a cold windy down-pour stiff to the pin.

With only 15-20 mins at the driving range I could help you use less club. 175 yds for a 4-iron? That's like 30 years ago, 30 yards ago, man. 7-iron would be more like it.

I saw Nathaniel Branden do it. You can too.

TGGP said...

I think David Friedman gives the best take on property rights here.

Somalia is stateless but still had property rights. It actually became a better place to do business compared to its neighbors after its government collapsed. Some form of property rights are found in pretty much any society. The mistake, as Kevin Carson has pointed out, is assuming that there is some one true form that they must take rather than varying by community.

Enron said...

In somewhat seriousness, I think what some have been getting at is the difference of what Bookchin called social anarchism versus lifestyle anarchism, yo.
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/ANARCHIST_ARCHIVES/bookchin/soclife.html

Mr.Fundamental said...

Okay Dude. I can see you don't want
to be cheered up. C'mon Donny, let's
go get a lane.

Anonymous said...

Charles,

Hitting a 7-iron 175 yds. is easy on a clear summer day going downhill with a 40 mph tailwind.

Thanks for the offer, but I am simply not assertive enough (and old to boot). I probably would not do well in a libertarian paradise.

Anonymous said...

'Cause you're steppin' on my property, get off it G Get caught up, then you get shot up.


just sayin

stephen said...

Everyone of your arguments is a defense of some kind of parochialism or another. Community, localism, whatever...except when those communities involve white people, or patriarchy, which are intolerable, except in other countries which get a pass. So when communities decide for "themselves" what the good life is it is not coercion, except when it is. I wouldn't try to put a label on any of this either.

Mr.Fundamental said...

On you, maybe.

Montag said...

parochialism is kind of the point, isn't it? post-coercion society will only work on a small scale. which isn't to say that coercive societies, (racist or patriarchal,) don't also work on a small scale, just that they are, well, smaller, and their coercion limited in scope.

Anonymous said...

Why do the yawners keep coming back?

Must be the comments.

Anonymous said...

The only thing worse than claiming to have a coherent political philosophy is thinking that your coherent political philosophy matters - ie, has any impact on those go-getters expressing their unconscious Stirnerite selves and taking an active role in controlling your life. Pelosi owns you, and she's dumber than a bag of rocks.

Montag said...

were you listening to the Dude's story?

not a whole lot of 'thinking things matter' goes on in here.

Leonard said...

TGGP, I am totally down with dissing the Howleys of the world as "jetpack libertarians". Howley's problem is the same as Somin and Wilkenson and all the rest: they are sucking up to power. They want power. Big fat mistake for a libertarian. If you want power, be a Democrat. Or at least a Republican. (IOZ, for all his jetpack libertarian tendencies, is not stupid like that.)

I think, though, that you're wasting time here. What's the opposite of preaching to the choir? Reasoning to squirrels? With Mr Fun here, we've got the ultimate squirrel.

Oh well, fuck it, I like being windy as much as the next guy. There's no reason I can see for Howley to stop calling herself a libertarian -- there's plenty of ways to fail, and libertarianism encompasses many. Playing the power game in democracy with a philosophy that appeals only to smart geeks? Epic fail!

Menciuc Moldbug took apart Wilkinson early this year:
what the left-libertarian has the courage and forthrightness to propose is not just that a libertarian democracy can remain libertarian - contrary to history, reason, and wisdom alike - but that a socialist democracy can become libertarian! Through the same democratic process that sent it in the other direction! Time reverses, water runs uphill, dogs meow, and old women become young and beautiful.

Mr.Fundamental said...

stop making sense.

Quietdown said...

Narrow a broad concept with word-initial caps and you'd think it'd get lighter, but no! By that point, better to let it lie than wear yourself out trying to lug it around. Weird how it stays so dang heavy even after you re-lowercase it, though... Also, "liberty," "freedom," and all forms of "to be" for that matter are, like, cultural artifacts too; and the only constant of nature is change that don't give a fuck if you believe in it or not. Still, as long as "just a buddy helping his buddies out" stays lowercase and un-ismized, stick to it, yo!

Anonymous said...

What QeD say.

If it helps me reduce with 1% the actual cornohling inflicted by me on my fellow man, and by 1% my acquiescence to worldly powers' cornholing of the fellow man is well worth it.

A god that is not GOD is no god - and the state is no god.


The Christians

BDR said...

Yay! Talking Heads allusion!

Mr.Fundamental said...

The less we say about it the better
Make it up as we go along

Natailya Petrova said...

IOZ,

Very interesting post! Nevertheless, I must point out that Libertarians do say things about life in other countries. The Independent Institute has published books dealing with free enterprise in other countries.

dhex said...

"Howley's problem is the same as Somin and Wilkenson and all the rest: they are sucking up to power."

how so? i'm genuinely curious.

Inkberrow said...

BDR---

Another Talking Heads reference for you. Libertarian Party Headquarters, like heaven, is a place where nothing ever happens.

Anonymous said...

I think you mean Brandon de Wilde, not Nathaniel Branden. Brandon was the Objective Realist - Nathaniel played Paul Newman's younger brother in Hud.

Anonymous said...

To IOZ at 4:13 - or the George's of National Socialism, for that matter ...

Anonymous said...

You mean this nathaniel branden?

http://www.nathanielbranden.com/catalog/splash.php

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Anon-

Yep, that very one. His "Einrand" custom clubs may have had something to do with it. Every time he addressed the ball, he'd mutter something about "the unknown ideal" and "the power of selfishness," and then the ball would just rocket off the clubface, no matter how sloppy his swing.

"This is a game for objectivists!" he'd say, after every fine shot he hit. Then he'd launch into some longwinded story with one-dimensional characters and very clear black/white dichotomies that were surrogates for actual human interaction.

It was compelling stuff.

J said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christopher said...

Has Libertarianism ever spoken to you:

about Italy
about accordions
about women's pants
about the fatherland
about sardines
about Fiume
about Art (you exaggerate my friend)

Jesus, Seavey, kick that straw man a couple of more times, I don't think he's had enough yet.

The bad faith on display here is just fucking astonishing. First off, anybody who plays the "Look out behind you! A hippy!" card has lost the game.

Second, somehow cultural pressure has been reduced to "people telling you 'fat chicks should be shunned'". Seavey won't even address the issue of what happens when fat chicks actually ARE shunned, let alone what happens when nobody will hire you or serve you and you run a serious risk of death when walking in the wrong neighborhood, kissing the wrong girl, or drinking from the wrong fountain.

Living in the land of the lynch mob, the worst cultural pressure Seavey can conceive of is a misogynistic trucker hat.

Fuck, man, at least explain how the fat chicks will find their way to a more welcoming society.

I remember having a conversation with some online Objectivists and saying, "I live in government assisted housing paid for with your tax dollars. Without it I'd be on the street. Why the hell should I embrace Objectivism when it would make me homeless? Because it will make some people I've never met happy?"

The only response they could muster was that parasites like me would be the first with our backs against the wall when the revolution came.

It's a simple question: Why the fuck should I support something that ain't gonna support me?

Christopher said...

And I just realized that their whole argument hinges on the idea that feminism will inevitably begin to use the law to force society into a more feminist mold, but that racism will happily stay as mere cultural pressure for an indefinite period of time, never using the law to make society more racist.

What a couple of douchebags.

Anonymous said...

"Who is Spain?"
"Why is Hitler?"
"When is right?"
"Where was that stooped and mealy-colored old man I used to call Poppa when the merry-go-round broke down?"
"How was trump at Munich?"
"Ho-ho beriberi."
"Balls!"

mmMMURRAY ROTHBARD?? said...

“True libertarianism is not cultural libertarianism,” the philosopher Edward Feser wrote on the paleolibertarian website LewRockwell.com in December 2001.....

That was the older, Randian Von Feser. He's changed his tune slightly. Now it's "True libertarianism is found in the teachings of the catholic church, and nowhere else."

Enron said...

Well, they finally did it. They killed my fucking car.

Anonymous said...

"Most libertarians aren't even willing to accept that property, their central fetish, is itself a cultural artifact, not a constant of nature."

I call bullshit.

Name one society in wich no one feels like they own anything. Hunther gatherers may only own what they carry, kill or forage, but if you try to take that they will kick your ass.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 1:04
I think he means property that no-one else has any claim on.
Hunter-gatherers usually have rules about how to split the catch between the entire band. Given that there's no state to protect your ass if you enrage your fellow hunters with your antisocial selfishness, it could hardly be otherwise.

Murray Rothbard said...

Liberty means having the wherewithal to do what one wants to, without interference from any and all collectivists, corporate-Keynesian monetarists, sundry apparatchiks associated with the forces of social-integration. Keep the state away from our capital, and we won't use our capital to subject your state to the beautiful, impersonal workings of....the Market.

Anonymous said...

“The only way to clean up Chicago is to get rid of Capone,” General Flynn said.

Mr.Fundamental said...

Who the fuck is Arthur Digby Sellers?

Christopher M. said...

This was a really good post, IOZ.

Montag said...

Mr. Fun:

have you ever heard of a little show called Branded, Dude?

Mr.Fundamental said...

Yeah yeah, I know the fucking show
Walter, so what?

Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

IOZ: The problem is not that many libertarians are unwilling to consider the broader implications of their philosophy, but rather, that libertarianism is not a philosophy, not even a "political ideology," as the more careful bet-hedgers might have it. ... It is instead a lame, purely American third-party movement that sometimes appropriates the trappings of ideology in order to justify self-perpetuation in the face of a plurality-takes-all electoral system wholely inimical to minor parties.

That's an interesting series of assertions about what libertarianism is and what it is not. Could you say a bit more about what all of it is based on?

Is this just your own personal stipulative definition of "libertarianism"? Is it supposed to be a definition that reflects common use? Is it supposed to be an account of what Kerry Howley is referring to when she calls what she believes in "libertarianism"? (If so, what's your evidence that that's what she means?) Is it supposed to be an account of what most libertarians, other than Kerry Howley, mean when they call what they believe in "libertarianism"? Or an account of what most people mean when they mention "libertarianism"? (In either case, if so, what's your evidence that that is the sole common usage of the term among the population that you're concerned with?)

I ask because you seem awfully sure that "libertarian" is more or less identical with "member of the Libertarian Party U.S.A.," and "libertarianism" means nothing more than a libertarian's partisan proclivities. Which is an odd position to take on a word that was first coined -- by a Frenchman, not an American -- 115 years before the U.S. Libertarian Party was ever founded,

Of course, there is such a thing as the Libertarian Party, and some people who identify themselves as libertarians (or Libertarians) support it. But there are also plenty of people who self-identify as libertarians who want nothing to do with it -- either because they have problems with the organization as it is, or because they are opposed to all forms of participation in political parties or campaigns for government office. And there were, of course, a lot of people who took that position back when the Libertarian Party was being founded, and who have continued to take that position throughout its career of miserable electoral failures.

Of course, if you want to focus on one narrow meaning of "libertarianism" -- your own personal stipulative definition, or one of the many meanings in common use, or whatever -- you're welcome to talk about any meaning of "libertarianism" you want to talk about. But why think that Kerry Howley is using the word in the same way that you are?

IOZ said...

Ahahah. We know which Lebowski you are, Lebowski.

You seem awfully sure that "libertarian" is more or less identical with "member of the Libertarian Party U.S.A.," and "libertarianism" means nothing more than a libertarian's partisan proclivities.

Your first clause suggests you didn't understand the post; the second would be correct if you replaced "means" with "is".

Self-professed libertarians are fond of this game, of course; they refuse to provide any sort of normative definition of their supposed philosophy, and then attack any criticism as being a merely idiosyncratic definition of that which they steadfastly refuse to define.

As for a Frenchman coining "libertarian" prior to the American Revolution, do you really want to go down that road? I will see your Libertarian and raise you a Republican and a Democrat.

Mr.Fundamental said...

you're killing your father Larry!

Leonard said...

dhex: read the piece I linked. It is a sufficient refutation for anyone who supports both democracy and liberty.

Or you might also try Moldbug's general-purpose refutation of libertarianism, which indicts the Cato crowd among others. You can skip the first part, search for "the second reason I am not a libertarian".

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Murray Rothbard amuses me. He and his addled-minded followers imagine that under "libertarianism" people will not group together to form analogs to the oppressive corporate entities that now run American society. Yep, if we just leave them alone, they'll magically stop being immoral, misanthropic, greedy, acquisitive, destructive. It's magic! Libertarianism is a magic wand!

erin4iraq said...

Yes Charlie, just like socialism

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Translating the "rad geek" above...

"I am shapeless, formless, thoughtless, actless. You cannot pin me down. I refuse to admit that human beings are competitive, acquisitive, callous, destructive, envious, and many other things if left to their own devices. And I will not engage you on substantive points. I will evade every attempt at meaningful discussion because ultimately, I am a sort of political confidence man working a long-con. When the government gets privatized my friends and I will be there to take over the services and get RICH, BEEEEEYOTCH!"

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

I'm sorry, "erin" -- are you trying to use a straw-man here? Creating a "socialist" effigy to stand in for me?

That's pretty lame.

ROTHBARD, Murray said...

The true Libertarian grants that Man may very well be immoral, misanthropic, greedy, acquisitive, destructive, and prone to eccentricity. Unlike the usual self-sacrificing liberal mediocrity, or statist-collectivist human-insect, however, the true Libertarian realizes that any government is no better than the citizens who constructed it--whether they drew their inspiration from the ever-enduring springs of human ingenuity and liberty, or the base-insectoid desires of the collectivist-masochist horde.

The true Libertarian also knows how to par-tay.

erin4iraq said...

No Charles- I don't know what you are made of- just pointing out that people don't change no matter what system of government they have or do not have. Best to deal with that reality rather than pretend it isn't so.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Gee, Mr Rothbard. Like "erin" you use straw-men as effigies for me, merely because I point out a flaw of you libertarian-squids' outlook. So you assume I'm a liberal, or statist-collectivist. Good for you, you have two categories of scapegoat instead of the solo category used by "erin." That shows initiative.

Perhaps you and your catatonic fellow liberatarian-squids could inform the rest of us how you plan to handle the more nefarious traits of humans, especially when humans band together to amplify those traits with the power of groups and their amassed money, etc. Thus far in examining libertarian-squid writings, I've not seen anyone address this. It's a pretty large hole in the theory, as I see it.

Signed,

you've wrongly guessed my views again!

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

No Charles- I don't know what you are made of- just pointing out that people don't change no matter what system of government they have or do not have. Best to deal with that reality rather than pretend it isn't so.

Who's pretending "it isn't so"? Libertarians!

Say, erin... why not tell us how YOU plan to deal with "that reality."

erin4iraq said...

Perhaps you haven't been playing the ioz game for long. Allow me to introduce myself- I am the conservative, knee-jerk authoritarian, gun loving woman (one of the few) who lurks around these parts periodically for reasons I can only explain by the wisdom of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Oh I've been reading IOZ for a long time by the months or years standard, but not by the decades or centuries standard. How often I've commented? Hmmm. Well I have had many Blogger handles in my time spent in these here Toobz.

So anyway, how do you plan to deal with "that reality", erin?

ROTHBARD, Murray said...

The true Libertarian also understands Teddy Roosevelt's maxim of speaking softly and carrying a big stick--or big, fully-automatic AR-15 with armor-piercing ammo, just in case the statist-collectivist Rabble-mind attains fence-climbing stage.

erin4iraq said...

I'm thinking peace through superior fire power.
Seriously, I am a republican to the extent it's about limited government and personal responsibility. Which isn't much, so call me disillusioned and looking for a viable candidate in 2012-like all republicans. We flirt with libertarianism but aren't quite sure what it means or if it provides for adequate security for our lives and country. Which brings us back to square one.

Enron said...

Also, let's not forget - let's *not* forget, Dude - that keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know, within the city - that aint legal either.

Montag said...

erin,

do you sense any tension between the ideas of 'limited government' and 'securing our country'?

the republican approach may well be the only logical one in coping with today's world, but it's an awfully cutthroat ideology.

i find i don't have the stomach for it when i stop to ask what is 'country'? and is ours worth securing?

no physical harm intended. i'm through with partisan politics.

Montag said...

given time to play out, i posit that this thread would lead to the appropriate quoting of every last word of TBL.

it may get a little uncomfortable for whoever is on the receiving end of, "you want me to blow on your toes?" but still it might be worth trying.

erin4iraq said...

Montag: well, first,I am sincerely happy and proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free... sorry, I digress. I do not see a tension, when it's understood that part of the limited role of government is national security. It's a delicate balance, I suppose, but worth trying when the alternative is government control of all aspects of our lives, which is where things are headed now. Also, I am not so queasy about using physical force, in general, as you seem to be. Maybe my Scottish cattle-stealing ancestry speaking there.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I'm just gonna find a cash machine.

Mr.Fundamental said...

"Mark Twain said, "Those of you who are inclined to worry have the widest
selection in history." Why complain? Try to do something about it - you know,
it's [been] goin' on nine months now, since I decided that I was gonna declare
that I am a candidate
for the presidency of the United States. Oh yes, I'm
going to run.

Shopped around for a party. Well, I looked at the Republicans. Decided
talking to a conservative is like talking to your refridgerator. You know, the
light goes on, the light goes off, it's not gonna do anything that isn't built
into it. But I'm gonna talk to a conservative any more than I talk to my damn
refridgerator. Working for the Democratic party, now, that's kind of like
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

So I created my own party: it's called the Sloth and Indolence Party. I'm
running as an anarchist candidate in the best sense of that word. I've studied
the presidency carefully. I have seen that our best presidents were the do-
nothing presidents: Millard Fillmore, Warren G. Harding. When you have a
president who does things we are all in serious trouble. If he does anything
at all: if he gets up at night to go to the bathroom, somehow, mystically,
trouble will ensue.

I guarantee that if I am elected, I will take over the White House, hang out,
shoot pool, scratch my ass, and not do a damn thing.

Which is to say: if you want something done, don't come to me do it for you,
you gotta get together and figure out how to do it yourselves. Is that a deal?"

IOZ said...

Enjoying my coffee.

Aaron said...

Do you want me to blow on your toes?

Mr.Fundamental said...

Wasn't this guy supposed to be a
millionaire?

Montag said...

i'm not queasy about using physical force, in general.

if someone wants to get in my kids face, or something, i'm not beyond punching a motherfucker in the nose.

it's the predator drones bombing villages in Afghanistan so we can maintain geo-political control of the Mideast that make me queasy.

erin4iraq said...

So look at as if your Afghanistan is in your kids' face. That should help.

I joke, of course. I am sure of one thing about Afghanistan: I would not want my kid there under this commander in chief whose response to the situation is to contemplate about what might be done or possibly should be done (while playing basketball and golf and attending some assinine solar energy conference) while soldiers die and he makes up his mind.

If you are going to fight a war, I think it's best to try to win it.

Mr.Fundamental said...

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! That's marvelous.

8 said...

Aynnie Rand & Co are definitely contenders in the Shit-sucker 500. But still out-paced by stalinists, nazis, billy bob baptists, mao-bots, vichy-papists, most mooslims, mormonics, and Idi Amin. Really, commies may eventually take the Shitsucker Cup, however much that offends the pomo-left.

Aynnie pitched bad Aristotle and Locke-lite. That may be better than no Aristotle or Locke atall

Anonymous said...

Sure, you'll see some tank battles, but fighting in the desert is very different from fighting in canopy jungle.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

If you are going to fight a war, I think it's best to try to win it.

And the reasons offered for fighting it in the first place, fuck them, eh?

Coldtype said...

"it's the predator drones bombing villages in Afghanistan so we can maintain geo-political control of the Mideast that make me queasy"-Montag

... but not "erin", I bet she sleeps like a baby comfortable in the knowledge that the judicious use of our remote-controlled Freedom Bombs will keep us safe from those dusky Afghans (or at least their survivors) who naturally hate us for our "freedoms".

erin4iraq said...

In a sense, yes. My writings have been commended as being strongly vaginal which bothers some men.

(just doin' my part, montag)

IOZ said...

I mean, Nam was a foot soldier's war.

Montag said...

you know Smokey has emotional problems!

IOZ said...

They should be pushovers.

Roderick Jaynes said...

I absolutely love IOZ's alter ego Erin. S(he) is brilliant. More please.

Montag said...

I absolutely love IOZ's alter ego Erin. S(he) is brilliant.

it's a fucking game. you said so yourself, Dude, she kidnapped herself.

Mr.Fundamental said...

This was a valued rug.

8 said...

ah think you botched the quote--

correctio:

"My writings have been condemned as having a strongly vaginal odor which bothers some men.""

WHOOP

erin4iraq said...

woowee that's funny stuff

fucking fascist

Enron said...

I could be just sitting at home with pee stains on my rug.

8 said...

Chupame, Erin-ita :-}

Phunnier than your banal Phyllis Schaftly-on-crack-rants, dearie

Misogyny's equal opportunity, howevah. Bolsheviks shut the liberal sob sisters down from day One.

(it was just a joke, Erin-10-4--).

Wasn't this like known as an anarchist site at one time?? Now, Aynnie Rand, Edward Von Feser on libertarians, football and NRA follies. Phuck

Maybe some investment advice, brrutthhrr

Anonymous said...

Pilar?

Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

IOZ: Your first clause suggests you didn't understand the post;

Well, whatever. If you didn't have the LP in mind, maybe you could tell me what "lame, purely American third-party movement" you did have in mind.

IOZ: Self-professed libertarians are fond of this game, of course; they refuse to provide any sort of normative definition of their supposed philosophy, and then attack any criticism as being a merely idiosyncratic definition of that which they steadfastly refuse to define.

Well, no; far from refusing, I've written specifically about the definition of the term "libertarian" many times (for example, see the note here or the comments scattered throughout Liberty, Equality, Solidarity). I just didn't do so again here. I have a pretty good notion of what I mean about my political philosophy when I describe it as "libertarian" (it has something to do with theories of justice based on the respect for the law of equal liberty; it's also the opposite of "authoritarian," and so has something to do with rejecting status-based theories of political legitimacy). There are of course other meanings to the term, with equally good historical pedigrees, which we could also discuss. But I didn't say much about that above because in this here conversation, you're the one trying to push a sweeping conclusion, supposedly in response to a specific article by Kerry Howley, without ever stopping to consider whether the thing you spend all your time hacking at is even the thing that Kerry Howley is talking about when she talks about "libertarianism."

If you attempt to support a sweeping conclusion by insisting on one definite meaning for the term, among many that have historically been in common usage, without giving any reason for thinking that this is the right meaning to insist on, or that it is at least the same meaning which was being used by your conversation partner when she used the word "libertarianism" to describe what she believes, then it's on you to supply the reasons behind your heretofore unsupported assertions.

IOZ: As for a Frenchman coining "libertarian" prior to the American Revolution,

The American Revolution was more than 115 years ago.

My point also wasn't based solely on how the word was used in 1857. It was also being used to mean something quite other than a "third party movement" in 1967 (when it was being used by folks like Rothbard, LeFevre, Karl Hess, et al., and when the LP did not yet exist); the Libertarian Party was, after all, named after the body of ideas, and not vice versa. Many of the people at the time considered themselves libertarians but wanted nothing to do with the LP. Many of those people are still alive and still feel the same way. Many of us who came to the movement much later also came to the body of ideas, without much or any interest in the party named after it.

IOZ: do you really want to go down that road? I will see your Libertarian and raise you a Republican and a Democrat.

O.K. Are those supposed to be counterexamples to my point? If so, how? "Democrat" and "republican" each have commonly accepted meanings in political theory which are quite independent of the political parties which use those names today. If I were to talk about democratic political theories (say, the political thought of the Athenian democrats, or whatever), and you were to reply by saying that the problem with all that is that Democrats really are nothing more than a crappy, opportunistic center-left party, then you would be engaging in exactly the sort of equivocation that you're indulging in with respect to libertarianism.

Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

Charles F. Oxtrot,

Funny. But the translation is inaccurate, due to the fact that I wasn't speaking Strawman.

If you knew anything about the version of libertarianism I've endorsed in my writing, you'd know that I'm opposed to most government "privatization" schemes (I want government abolished, not auctioned off), and that I've repeatedly written about the nasty and exploitative practices of large corporations and other centers of economic power (the thing is just that I advocate non-governmental means of dealing with callousness, envy, greed, and exploitation, because I see government as part of the problem on that one, not part of the solution). Of course, there's no reason why you should have to know anything in particular about the views expressed in my writing; but if you don't know what you're talking about the best course would be not to talk about it.

But please do feel free to go back to arguing with the imaginary Internet libertarian buzzword bingo-card in your head.

Nadaland said...

Brutha Rad Geek be representin' for the Nozick-in-Nevada school of poli-theory--


Yes, less gub-mint regs: more casinos! Dope. Guns. Saloons. Bordelloes. Pimps n ho's for the Peoples, y'all

IOZ said...

Chucky: no one but you is talking about the Libertarian Party.

dhex said...

thanks, leonard. despite their failings, the anarchists (usually) know how to throw a good party, so long as you can keep them away from the stereo. (the libertarians are even worse in this regard: prog rock? really?)

8 said...

Some Rothbard-speak verges on the nearly coherent. He called Hillary a witch, dissed the SCOTUS (I believe)--the REAL definining libertarian trait--and objected to liberal police state tactics (lets not forget demos run the police and teacher mega-unions). Rothbard also opposed the sort of WF Buckley chi chi GOP and Reaganites. A few libertarians protested Nam (did Miss Rynd? I heard she may have, once--.

But as an economic policy LP turns about to be something like "let Stevie Wynn do what he wants to." The LP regs are not usually even Rothbard like quacks, but bong-toking, semi-toting Ron Pauls and Reagans.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Rad Geek, that sort of disingenuity you're playing won't pass scrutiny.

As I said, you didn't tell us what sort of "libertarianism" you were talking about. Instead you shape-shifted, evaded.

And now you accuse me of not knowing what you were talking about. HELLO! DUMBASS! That's the point I was making! When you don't admit what you're talking about, nobody can know.

I suppose you think you're clever, playing the shadow-boxer. You're not clever. You're not rad. You're just a weak geek who seems to fancy himself a master debater, instead of realizing he's only a masturbater. Remove the D and the truth falls squarely on you, becomes hard to miss.

Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

IOZ: Chucky: no one but you is talking about the Libertarian Party

As you please, but that leaves my earlier question unanswered: If you didn't have the LP in mind, maybe you could tell me what "lame, purely American third-party movement" you did have in mind.

It also leaves unanswered my original question: what is your basis, other than your personal say-so, for this string of assertions about what libertarianism is ("a lame, purely American third-party movement") and is not (apparently not a philosophy)? Is there any such basis, or are we simply supposed to accept these assertions as revelations?

Charles F. Oxtrot: If you think that linking to things I wrote and published 4 years ago, in order to explain my views, constitutes "shape-shifting" you've got an odd notion of shape-shifting. My views about this stuff are a matter of record; I was merely pointing you to the record. If this is "evasion," I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be evading.

I didn't "accuse" you of not knowing about my personal libertarian views. What I did accuse you of is pretending like you knew something about them when they had not yet come up in the conversation. There's nothing wrong with not knowing the details of my personal libertarian views. (Why should you? I don't pretend to know what your political views are, either.) There is something wrong with talking confidently about what those views must be when you know nothing in particular about them.

Have fun knocking down straw-libertarians.

jsabotta said...

Oxtrot claims, or thinks that libertarians should admit

"that human beings are competitive, acquisitive, callous, destructive, envious, and many other things if left to their own devices"

...and therefore he seems to be saying that a small group of these same callous, destructive, envious, etc humans should be given power over everyone else, and the scope of their envy and destructiveness should be vastly extended at the expense of everyone else by means of an armed mob called the State.

The secret here is that the Oxtrots of the world really don't consider themselves to be destructive yahoos in need of constant supervision. He's superior, you see, and he knows that libertarians and other such trash shouldn't be left to their "own devices."

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Rad Geek, you didn't link to your old writing UNTIL AFTER I said you were shifting shapes.

You're about as sincere as Obama.

++++++++++++++++++

jsabotta, what you think I "seem to be saying" is a fiction you just made up, presumably to "defend" Sad Geek.

I haven't said I'm "superior," that's another Sad Geek strawman.

What I believe is what I've said in my posts, not what you imagine. Stick to what I said, botta. Not to the effigies you've built and ascribed to me.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

If botta doesn't know me, and makes up bullshit instead of asking me what I believe, how can he talk about the "oxtrots of the world" when he hasn't even bothered to find out what THIS Oxtrot believes?

Maybe it's because libertarian-squids have the incredible power of reading others' minds --albeit inaccurately. Neat trick, that one. Almost makes a lib-squid feel superior, I'd bet.

nereus said...

Very nice post IOZ.

Leonard, need a little help here. Where in Mencius' torrential word flow does he insert the itty bitty caveat about The Constitution's (implicit) sanction of slavery? That would help me out quite a bit for generating the necessary energy required to parse that gigantic shitload of (unknown yet).

IOZ said...

Charles. A clarification. I am saying that all the good ideas claimed by some (note some) libertarians at certain times belong either to anarchy or to various leftist ideologies; what is left is a question-begging property party in thrall to a cryptojeffersonian limited-state fever dream whose principle activities consist in yabbering on about how this or that US Government action violates the millionteenth proposition of The Market, another one of those terms that no one can quite define except through tautology.

Leonard said...

nereus, need some help myself. Why do you think Mencius Moldbug needs any Constitution-slavery-caveats? How would such a thing improve your qi? Do you desire Mencius to abjure slavery before you will read him? If so, you will be disappointed; he is quite tolerant of it, so far as I can tell, regarding it as a natural human relationship.

nereus said...

Thanks Leonard, that's what I wanted to know. Though by default I wouldn't tell anybody what they can or cannot do in their bedroom[1], the state sanctioned slavery bit makes me a bit... queasy.

[1] Exceptions exist; Gacy might have merited a bit of curiosity a time or two.

jsabotta said...

The odious Moldbug is a fascist. He appeals to nerds who yearn for power.

And of course, he's "tolerant" of slavery, since he isn't a slave. Idiots like Leonard who apologize for Moldbug are legion, but that kind of pathology has nothing to do with liberty.

However, theres is no moral difference between Moldbug asserting that "might is right" and an Oxtrot asserting that there's nothing wrong with oppression and injustice as long as it pays for his government assisted housing. They are both would-be thieves with a fancy line of patter, and they are both too cowardly to actually go about doing their own robbing and enslaving.

Leonard said...

Sabotta, it has to do with ability to think independently. In other words, to be a nerd. Indeed. As for power, of course I yearn for it, being human. If I was God I'd... But I fully realize I shall never have it. This is, I feel, better than most homo saps, pathetically attached to their vote as an effective instrument of hopey change.

And yes, there is no moral difference you can possibly see within your current moral framework. Dem slavers all the same! If you can think, though, you may be able to discern some practical differences: Moldbug's neocameralism is immoral but at least coherent and efficient, and it is also nonexistent; whereas your Oxtrot's democracy is immoral, incoherent, highly inefficient (and getting worse all the time), and also very much existing. Whether these distinctions move you remains to be seen. (I feel you may be too old.)

But all that I really academic. You do not have to agree with a man's politics to agree with his criticisms. Mencius Moldbug's reactionaryism is certainly related to his criticism of democracy: it is a viewpoint from which you can see certain things. But it does not make what you see wrong. If you wish to criticize Moldbug's criticisms of democracy, by all means, put your shoulder to the wheel. But your ad hom attacks are unworthy of serious debate.

TGGP said...

Leonard:
Sabotta is a former contributor to the once-again-defunct anarcho-capitalist blog No Treason. Pretty sure he's an anarchist, not a small-d democrat.

Mencius gave a defense of slavery in a comment thread at GNXP. I was a little late in responding with evidence that the lot of slaves improved after emancipation, but I did so here. Of course, such evidence must be illegitimate praxeologically, and we must await for MM to derive his theorem on slavery based on axioms of which he is apodictically so we can look to see if there are any logical errors in his proof.

Leonard said...

TGGP: I know who Sabotta is, more or less. I used to sporadically read No Treason. Which is why I did not accuse him of actually supporting democracy (I did accuse poor Oxtrot of that, perhaps unjustly). I think of Sabotta as a sincere if shrill ideologue. Anarchist, ergo: smarter than most libertarians, but not so smart as to drop the moralism, be interested in dropping the moralism, or even be capable of imaginatively dropping it for the purpose of understanding others. Perhaps I am mistaken. I just have seen no evidence of it from him.

Montag said...

Leonard, not trying to be glib here, but what do you mean by "moralism" in this context? is nihilism the mark of a truly smart anarchist, or is there room for some form of ethics?

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

botta -

and an Oxtrot asserting that

um, I never asserted what you said following the bit immediately above.

I love juvenile lib-squids, they think that "pwning" someone on an e-forum is the height of existence, and so they lie, shade, distort, obfuscate, muddy, cloud, wrangle and twist things in order to "pwn" someone.

and of course, in an in-person debate, real-time, using actual noggin power, people like botta are slackjawed sideliners.

Anonymous said...

Hi
[URL=http://blog.bakililar.az/Botshark/]Buy Tramadol Online[/URL]