Saturday, October 10, 2009

Suspecting Something Bad Will Happen as the Proximate Cause of Something Bad Happening

Here is a very weird debate. Paul Kingsnorth says: industrial civilization cannot infinitely grow nor indefinitely be maintained, and whether we like it or not, external circumstances--political, economic, and environmental--are going to force its gradual collapse. He suggests that if we acknowledge this fact we may at least begin to prepare ourselves for what follows. George Monbiot then accuses him in barely veiled terms of desiring the disease-and-starvation deaths of billions of people as the precursor to a macho-millennarian fantasy of some kind of agraro-utopian society rising from the ashes: in essence, thus, accuses Kingsnorth of the Khemer Rouge heresy. This is quite plainly nuts, a callous, intentional, unethical, and thoroughly dishonest misstatement of an opponent's position in order to paint him as a monster. Well, never let it be said that the forensics dorks weren't capable of their own brand of bullying. Additionally, as if accusing Kingsnorth of hoping for the holocaust of the majority of humanity were an insufficient calumny, Monbiot becomes quite hysterical:

Here are three observations:

1. Our species (unlike most of its members) is tough and resilient.
2. When civilisations collapse, psychopaths take over.
3. We seldom learn from other people’s mistakes.

From the first observation, this follows: even if you have somehow hardened yourself to the fate of human beings, you can surely see that our species will not become extinct without causing the extinction of almost all others. However hard we fall, we will recover sufficiently to land another hammer blow on the biosphere. We will continue to do so until there is so little left that even Homo sapienscan no longer survive. This is the ecological destiny of a species possessed of outstanding intelligence, opposable thumbs and an ability to interpret and exploit almost every possible resource - in the absence of political restraint.
It is at this juncture of course impossible to say if our species is "tough and resilient" or merely one of nature's more ungainly, passing fancies. Compared to the geological life of the planet we are not yet an eyblink; compared to our fellow chordates we are a quick-drawn breath; compared even to many of our late-arriving, brother and sister mammals, we're barely newborn. The coelacanth and crocodile are laughing at you, George Monbiot. Bacteria are not impressed. The idea that our own apparent death-wish, even were it to melt all the ice in the Antarctic, will assert and reassert itself until at last naught but us remains, and after that, zipp-o, nil, rien, niente, forevermore, hallelujah, amen is a measure beyond mere vanity.

Monbiot is in any case hard to take seriously, as he simultaneoulsy proposes that while we are, as a species, fundamentally incapable of learning lessons even from such a catastrophe as the total collapse of all our civilizations, it may nonetheless be possible, albeit unlikely, to "[engineer] a soft landing - an ordered and structured downsizing of the global economy." It doesn't require much in the way of rhetorical training to spot the glaring contradiction there. No, we cannot learn through disaster of unimaginable magnitude, but yes we can learn from . . . what? Seminars? Subtle political pressures? Blogs!? Like I said, nuts. He warns that if we do not . . . call our congressman? . . . then we face a future world without, ye gods, "political accontability," in which power monopolies maintained through force and coercion control the distribution of resources. How, how, how will we survive in that brave and novel world?

Well. As Kingsnorth tries to point out to his crabby dance partner, it is possible to believe that civilizational decline is inevitable without cheering the misery it will likely bring, just as it is possible to believe that during and after such a period of decline the fortunes of many of the world's poor and downtrodden might actually rise, even if only in a relative sense. Of course, Kingsnorth does not claim this outcome as an inevitability; I suspect he believes that of humanity, as of all things, the only surety is that this too shall pass. In the meantime, he wins the debate simply by grace of not saying anything idiotic.

39 comments:

Leonard Hatred said...

"quite plainly nuts... callous... unethical, and thoroughly dishonest"

Iiiiiiiiit's Monbiot!

Rojo said...

You bring to mind one of my kvetches with the environmentalists I've come across crying "Save Mother Earth!"

Mother Earth will be just fine, no matter what we do, we might very well fuck ourselves, along with some collateral damage like the polar bear, however.

Monbiot's argument, moreover, reminds me of an argument I had with a Kerry supporter mad at me for not voting for Kerry. "What," he asked me, "do you want more Iraqis to die?" "Dude! More Iraqis are going to die anyway!"

Christopher M. said...

This is wince-inducing stuff to read, but it's not terribly surprising. Anyone on the deep-green environmental left, whenever they point out that merely swapping out SUVs for plug-in hybrids and incandescents for compact fluorescent bulbs will not be enough to preserve a habitable environment, gets screeched at by the mainstream environmental movement using the exact same terms and invectives that right-wingers and Exxon lobbyists use on liberals.

The environmental mainstream has very much wedded itself to a pain-free vision of the future, in which we keep maintaining the same environmental and economic practices we've had since the industrial revolution, only this time with magical technological fixes to make them "green." And anyone who suggests otherwise is naturally cheering on the apocalypse.

Christopher M. said...

On the other hand, it's hard to see what point Kingsnorth is really trying to make here: he notes that there's little he or Monbiot can do to affect what various global economic and industrial forces are doing while at the same time attempts to embark on a grand new project to "negotiate the coming descent as best we can." Who's this "we," Kemosabe? If we don't have the power to stop the collapse of civilization, how do we then have the power to make civilization's collapse go smoothly?

drip said...

Things will go on, until they don't and then it's like walking into a dive desperate for a drink 15 minutes after last call -- what happens is all in your attitude.

lucid said...

You know, at some point the sun will devour the earth...

stephen said...

Some dude looks at a couple of graphs. Gets scared, cuz he thought humanity, and by extension GAIA, were gunna kick it, like, for ever.

Yes the sanctimonious assholes who only show up for service on Easter and Christmas are annoying, but the assholes who show up every Sunday, and Wednesdays for mid-week, are even worse.

So lets say "we" cut the Prius and light bulb crap NOW, and get really, really, really lucky, and live long enough for the Sun to bust a money shot in our collective faces. Who fucking cares. Why not live now, and fuck the rest.

You know, believing the world is fucked and hoping for it are not the same thing, but there is a pretty strong correlation.

Heywood J. said...

Look, they got endless shrimp at Red Lobster this month. I'm not letting stupid Flanders and his stupid collapsonomics distract me from my mission of bringing home a couple doggie bags to dump into my Trader Joe's kung pao noodle boxes. Also, Jon and Kate something something.

I just love these future dystopia conversations, the endless pas de deux around the notion that there should be any guilt attached to simply asking people to breed and consume even a little less. Shiva forfend.

Maybe Monbiot had just read The Road and was deeply affected by it. Maybe he should read Deer Hunting with Jesus and decide whether "the fight is still worth having".

Kafka said...

Eventually the Dude will not abide. It's a very complicated case, lots of ins and outs.

Anonymous said...

Monbiot should have to watch Carl Sagan repeat "billions and billions" until the concept sinks in.

IOZ....cal1 Jimmy Kunstler. Let the acerbic flow.

Anonymous said...

"Why not live now..." Don't see much choice in that matter. Suicide excepted.

Mr.Fundamental said...

no way dude. webinars, with pizza, in Conference Room C. I've had several epiphanies right then and there in a tomato paste and cheese infused haze just before nodding off. we just need to capture our thoughts right before the instant our heads jerk to attention after having slipped away from consciousness at the 15th slide on "Partnership: Why It Works."

TGGP said...

Robin Hanson on limits to growth. He does not consider it a pessimistic vision. I share his views of a possible "hardscrapple" future.

Anonymous said...

off topic: Does IOZ have a good recipe for Lamb shanks and lima beans? Hopefully with lots of garlic.

Sorry to be so apparently random/off topic. I'm staying with brother and sister-in-lar who loves to cook. I told her that IOZ has some fine-sounding recipes, and I expect he knows something about lamb shanks.

If you could deliver on my berhalf...

Appreciations all around.

Sincerely,

Compound F

SteveB said...

What could you do? You know the answer as well as I do. Join up, protest, propose, create. It’s messy, endless and uncertain of success. Perhaps you see yourself as above this futility, but it’s all we’ve got and all we’ve ever had. And sometimes it works.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Anonymous said...

"This is quite plainly nuts, a callous, intentional, unethical, and thoroughly dishonest misstatement of an opponent's position in order to paint him as a monster."

Reminds me of the Polanski thread...

Anonymous said...

Monbiot did not say humanity is "fundamentally incapable of learning lessons even from such a catastrophe as the total collapse of all our civilizations". He said we seldom learn from other people's mistakes.

The basis problem is that, aside from sheer denial even of the existence of climate change, the people with the most power to alter our course have the least to lose from its continuation. Undeveloped nations pine for technological progress but will be inevitably the worst affected by the ravages of climate change. They already are, in fact.

Kingsnorth sees fate in the relentless upward lines on the graphs in front of him. But graphs showing a straight line cutting from left to right are not on his desk for a reason, and the graphs start at 1750 for a reason also. These are not just random clippings selected from the annals of human history that together tell an undeniable story. A graph spanning the entire length of mankind's run would be less striking, but more pertinent to the source of Kingsnorth's fatalism, as the myths that "tell us that humanity is separate from something called ‘nature’" certainly predate 1750 by many moons, as does the "economic system we rely upon". Yet such a graph would not serve as a basis for Kingsnorth's dim view of the future, in fact it would undermine it.

You may deride the idea of switching to non fossil fuel based sources of energy, switching to LED light bulbs and so on, but collectively these things are not trivial - they are the very physical reasons for the calamity we are facing.

Man cannot "control" nature ultimately, but when we understand some of its workings we have limited abilities to manipulate it to our ends. Had we understood the workings of greenhouse gases before we began to burn fossil fuels into the atmosphere we could have engineered this very crisis had we elected to, and we have the power to reverse that tide, although obviously not avoid it altogether as it has already begun.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I will take the climate change fixer-upper folks more seriously when they start to propose to advance technology to remove carbon from the atmosphere and put it back in the ground where it came from. damn that carbon!

the first world has a lock on the resources, and it ain't going to let it go. that's not to say you shouldn't argue that it should.

at any rate, the coal is going on the conveyor at Brunner Island whether you put a fancy light bulb in your lamp or not. all that's doing is delaying the inevitable. you can't deny that alternative energy technology relies on carbon for its bones, as well as the cracking of carbon for manufacturing, delivery, and operation. the problem is intractible. we cannot extricate ourselves from it. at this point I can only take mitigation and reclamation efforts seriously. if we could control CO2 levels, and CO2 is one of several climate changing gases, at what level shall the world agree on? why?

otherwise, I take our cats' view on things: when in doubt, FUCK.

Anonymous said...

As Ioz put it "A god that is not God isn't a god".

Projecting onto "Mother Earth", "Gaia", or whatnot humanoid, historicoid, and demi-god properties (albeit Carlin's skit on plastics IS funny)... that's the end product of 300 years of rejecing Christian "superstiions"?

I mean why bother?

The Christians

Enron said...

"Yeah Yeah I shot Reagan
The fucking pagan ate falafel
With Menachim Begin
Who the fuck is Carl Sagan?"

Inkberrow said...

Monbiot has the better of it. There's a whole cadre of these eco-guru scientists like Amory Lovins, Jon Holdren, and this Kingsnorth fellow, tumescing like Dr. Strangelove over the prospect of ordaining then presiding over some loincloth and spear human devolution. This time it's fear for Mother Earth's precious bodily fluids animating the control freak's programme.

fledermaus said...

"only this time with magical technological fixes to make them "green." And anyone who suggests otherwise is naturally cheering on the apocalypse"

we'll all ride unicorns to our jobs at the windmills.

SteveB said...

we'll all ride unicorns to our jobs at the windmills.

We need to give the unicorns a rest. Over at Roy's place, I got in an argument with an Obama-apologist who claimed that I was just peeved that Obama hadn't brought us rainbow-farting unicorns.

See how that works? Want more solar panels and fewer coal plants? Unicorns. Want more health care and fewer wars? Unicorns.

Anonymous said...

As the jerk who was cheerleading for the police state in the Polanski thread, I have to say I have some sympathy for Monbiot's sentiment regarding civilizational collapse, psychopathy, etc. But he's just dead wrong on the facts. Civilization has never slowed down species extinction; quite the opposite. Even if civilization were to come to mean something other than what it has always meant (i.e. ordering and multiplying humanity by pumping in lots of calories mined and hunted out of the surrounding environment), six billion well-behaved people are necessarily going to kill a lot more species than one billion naughty ones. It doesn't take a psychopath to log a forest; again, quite the contrary, the most industrious workers are earnest, warm-hearted family men who care about the fate of humanity. Monbiot has not been paying the least bit of attention to human history, including the present; he seems to have jumped ahead of himself to an imaginary future in which disrupting the ecosystem of a slime mold is something only a psychopath could bring himself to do.

druff said...

I see you Enron... Excellent!

Keifus said...

I am not sure I share Kingsnorth's vision on the power of (specific) ideas and mythologies, but I think your last paragraph is an accurate assessment.

Anon: I like your comment. Skimming his site, I note that this Monbiot guy doesn't agree. We rich cultures surely have a bigger footprint, and drive a lot of those oppressive economics, but there's some basic math here too, and if there were fewer consumers on the comfortable end, there'd certainly be less consumption. (I don't think people complain about the population of the poor too much in that equation. I could be wrong.) The fact that they (we) tend to cut fertility rates in conditions of perceived economic security is about the only straw of hope I see in the sorry mess.

Keifus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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