Wednesday, November 11, 2009

It's Nature's Way of Deceiving You

Technoutopian Greenocrats of the Thomas Friedman variety have this astonishing idea that if you just create a different model of growth, then you can hybridize consumption and conservation. Well, okay, sure. And my adorable little dog loves to eat her own poop.



So. Let us consult the ghost of elementary-school science class. In any system with finite resources, there are limits on growth, even where the resources are replaceable. Herbivores that overgraze will see their populations decline from unsustainable peaks even though the grass grows back. Predators that overhunt will see their populations decline despite the fact that the herd persists and has more calves. These are simple examples but illustrative of the regulatory mechanisms of natural equilibrium. Sometimes growth exceeds resources and there's dieback. Sometimes you get a few good rainy seasons and a glut of good grassland and the population rebounds quickly. Etc. and so forth.

But no system in which there are finite resources supports indefinite growth. The problem with this sort of Aspen-Institute vision of a world of Priuses and Whole-Foods-brand back-yard rainwater cisterns is that it works on the government model of increase: it calls projected future declines in growth cuts. Oh, if only we can slow the increase of . . . With increase, of course, remaining the operative word.

Now I think it may yet be possible for Brazil to find a way to economic prosperity without slashing and burning the rainforests for soy fields. But here is where 3rd-grade science fails. There's more than one vector here, and if Brazil uses less of this, it will use more of that . . . meanwhile, the fucking population continues to explode. To once again harp on a familiar theme, the problem we have is not that there are seven billion people consuming too much, but that there are seven billion people, and counting. I haven't got any proposed solution, but I'll tell you this: solar panels are not. Gonna. Fucking. Do it.

60 comments:

Enron said...

At first I thought this was an advice column on how to build a mall in the Amazon.

Montag said...

you aren't accounting for new technology. we invent time travel and the whole dynamic changes. (thinking along the lines of time traveling nuclear assassins here.)

Gridlock said...

Can't we eat each other?

Guy Who Points Things Out on the Internet said...

What are you, a fucking park ranger now?

Mr.Fundamental said...

no way. what a cutie. what's your dog's name?

Anonymous said...

Yeah, you aren't accounting for new technology. Specifically the technologies of birth control and education for women. If they work in Brazil etc. the way they've worked in western Europe, our population will stabilize and then gently drift downwards before we reach the level of Malthusian holocaust.

Mind you, on Armistice Day it's important to remember that it's much more likely that we'll kill ourselves fighting over what we perceive to be scarce resources before the actual scarcity does us in directly.

Inspector Lee said...

He fixes the cable?

Anonymous said...

in which their are finite resources

Workmanlike, yet inferior.

Anonymous said...

I didn't rent it shoes. I'm not buying it a fucking beer.

Anonymous said...

I didn't rent it shoes. I'm not buying it a fucking beer.

Mr.Fundamental said...

First of all, Dude, you don't have
an ex, secondly, it's a fucking show
dog with fucking papers. You can't
board it. It gets upset, its hair
falls out.

annie oakley said...

i've taken up smoking to increase my carbon monoxide footprint

NutellaonToast said...

IOZ, don't you known to account for innovation? Given enough time and the right economical incentives, some clever guy will find a way to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics. Human ingenuity has avoided all catastrophes thus far and will continue to do so forever until the universe is a homogeneous soup of human bodies.

IOZ said...

Lulz@3:02. Thanks. Fixed.

Mr Fun, her name is Pippi. She's two. Accidentally acquired from the Animal Rescue League because love. She enjoys eating her poop, eating other dogs' poop, eating the dead bird, and ignoring things.

Mr.Fundamental said...

she sounds wonderful.

Mr.Fundamental said...

and yea, totally see the stockings.

Solar Hero said...

OK, look, its not "Veteran's Day," its not "Armistace Day." It is the "National Fall War Holiday," the counterpart to the "National Spring War Holiday," otherwise known as "Memorial Day."

periscopedepth said...

Besides, the whole human experiment is doomed when the magnetic poles flip, or when the next solar flare hits, or when the Earth falls into the Sun, or something.

Aaron said...

Blame Christianity. They were the ones who said everyone everywhere can be saved in Jesus. Liberal capitalists have just changed the terminology a bit.

mac said...

32 million cats in this country—and some dogs. Eat the cats, fight over the poop. Then we get real small like those pygmy hippos.

Michael said...

The only way to actually fix the overpopulation issue is to let resource scarcity do its job and, well, kill people. Or at least make less of them be born.

Thankfully, the resources in question are currently nowhere near scarce enough to do that (or else they would already be doing so) and won't be for quite a damn long time. Nevertheless, enough academics, politicians, journalists, and civil service button-pushers are employed trying to fix these as-yet-nonexistent "problems" that there is a large social and political impetus to keep the public mildly worried about them at all times.

Christopher M. said...

That's a hell of a cute dog.

Justin said...

"no way. what a cutie. what's your dog's name?"
My favorite/funniest comment by Mr. Fundamental ever.

Christopher M. said...

Yeah, you aren't accounting for new technology. Specifically the technologies of birth control and education for women. If they work in Brazil etc. the way they've worked in western Europe...

...then Brazil etc. will get access to and use birth control only when Brazil etc. gets wealthier, and as Brazil etc. gets wealthier it will consume more and more resources per person, so I'm thinking The Pill won't save us, either.

frijoles junior said...

Our best case scenario, then, is clearly Stephen King's The Stand.

Such a pity that it's too beautiful a fantasy to ever happen.

frijoles junior said...

Seriously, though, the prescription is sound: a couple of orders of magnitude worth of population reduction and a prosperous modern lifestyle becomes ecologically sustainable again.

John O said...

Big fan of pandemic here.

It's very small d democratic, thus even if you're filthy rich you can't avoid it, though your odds are admittedly better.

Besides knowing the planet will find equilibrium, and knowing the whole shebang would be a lot more sustainable with a few billion less people, my family has a pretty good history of fighting off the bad viral insurgency.

One way or another, Nature will find balance. And as far back as college business school, I was asking, "How can permanent growth even be possible?" Never got a real good answer.

Love your "work," IOZ.

J

NutellaonToast said...

Hey, the universe is permanently growing, John, and so can you.

Leonard said...

It is true tautologically that no system in which there are finite resources supports indefinite growth., at least in terms of resource-consumption. (Wealth is partially information, and therefore not bounded by resource-consumption levels.) But in any case, this proves almost nothing about the current situation of humanity. The average person's metabolism uses about 100W of power; the Sun cranks out roughly 383 yottawatts (3.83×10^26 W); thus, if we do not expand beyond this solar system, and if we continue to have bodies of our current efficiency, then the human population is limited to just 3.83×10^24, that is, only 5x10^15 times our current 6.796 billion.

If we limit ourselves to just living on the earth, then the resource limit is the sunlight hitting the Earth, which is 250 watts per square meter; that is, we can sustain a population of 2.5 million people per square kilometer. The Earth's area is about 510 million km². You can see how it would add up: max sustainable population is only 187000 times what we have. Of course, we'd probably want to expend at least 90% of the insolation maintaining the environment... so perhaps our max numbers are only 18000 times our current numbers. Who knows?

So to speak of "overpopulation" is fallacious, or at best, ignorant. Nobody knows what sustainable population levels are now, much less tomorrow. Whatever they are, they are functions of technology and capital investment. And given time to develop tech and invest, they bear no relationship at all to our current population.

Ed said...

I was born in 1970. I remember reading in textbooks in the 1970s that the population of the world was 4 billion. Now its 6.5 billion. Its projected to be 9 billion around 2050, when its supposed to level off. Btw, it was about a billion in the 19th century.

So with the upcoming magic -OK new technology- we can support nine billion. Cool. Four and a half billion additional people in one lifetime? And we really won't have adjustment problems?

The sad thing is that all that is needed is for most people to have only one kid, and for more people to go childless. And this is starting to happen. But not fast enough.

Also keep in mind that much of the extra cheap food to support this population requires fossil fuel based fertilizer, and fossil fuel powered machines to deliver it.

IOZ said...

OMG QED Leonard. The singularity as human photosynthesis. I love it, and fuck the spotted owl.

Montag said...

soylent green is made out of people.

Enron said...

Apparently, dodo birds didn't taste so good.

NutellaonToast said...

I bet leonard has at least a year behind him in his BA physics program.

Soj said...

I'm a little shocked to see IOZ backing GW Bush's planned expedition to Mars :P

That's a tongue to show cheekiness, not some kind of actual alleged "fact".

The rest of the comments however seem to be proto-Georgia Guidestones in nature, aka "humanity is a virus" group meme, for which the vaunted NWO (of Alex Jones flavor) is clearly hard at work on achieving this solution.

Meanwhile I myself wonder why no one conducts liturgical services in Akkadian anymore hmmmm :P

BDR said...

I'd never post photos of my favorite pet at my bleg.

And accidental pets, especially people, are the best.

Keifus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Keifus said...

My parents have one of those coprophagic canines, and I'm similarly impressed with her. Not only for the assault on the second law of thermodynamics, but their cat's litterbox is self-cleaning, which seems like a real bonus to me.

Leonard's right that it's not so much that the resources are finite, just the stored ones, you know, that we use for everything. Solar's kinda diffuse wattage too, so you're talking a lot of real estate, which is important for pretty much everything else, and of which they ain't making more. Life on solar would be lean.

(Been reading about fusion reactors recently--hard to root against the tokamak, much as I'm sick of those Cornucopian assholes.)

And points for "yotta," which is clearly the awesomest SI prefix. (I kinda like zepto and yocto down on the other end too, sounds like two very small Marx brothers.)

Tim Baste said...

"then Brazil etc. will get access to and use birth control only when Brazil etc. gets wealthier, and as Brazil etc. gets wealthier it will consume more and more resources per person, so I'm thinking The Pill won't save us, either"

Exactly, Christopher M - you gots to factor in footprint. Population growth might be slowing in "developed" countries but this is where resource consumption is highest, so the net global result is still increased energy consumption. It's not education that results in lower birth rates, but complexity - the more complex the system, the less beneficial it is to have children (and vice versa). A sophisticated education system requires complexity (hence the illusion that education reduces birth-rates) but more complexity equals greater energy consumption, so whatevs.

Besides that, Brazil is still producing a major chunk of the world's food, which gets exported to other parts of the world where it inevitably causes population growth due to the fact that population is a function of food supply.

Garret Hardin reckoned that the "population problem" is one with no technological fix. The most recent answer to the question "how do we feed this many people?" was the Green Revolution in the 60s. This merely led to more people (4.2 billion more in just over 50 years), so the problem didn't go nowhere.

Dunc said...

Shorter Leonard: If we assume a spherical cow, in vacuum, with 100% efficiency, and ignore friction, everything will work out fine.

Anonymous said...

If Friedman projects false gratitude onto my imaginary grandchildren just ONE MORE TIME...

Leonard said...

Shorter Dunc: me mock what no understand.

Kiefus is right that we use "stored" resources (aka petroleum) for most of our power. But there's a perfectly good reason for that: the stuff is cheap. As it gets more expensive, the incentive to perfect renewable technologies will increase. Right now we're nearing the point where solar-electric is cost-effective, but we are not there yet. (We are, of course, thousands of years past the point where solar-biological pays. And this avenue, old though it is, is still not fully tapped.)

Kiefus is also right that "yotta" is da shizzle. But I don't know that stuff 'cause I'm too old to be cool. I just copied what I found at la wik.

NutellaonToast said...

Shorter Leonard: I'm such a physics newb I got totally pwned by the spherical cow joke and didn't get it.

Alternate Shorter Leonard: Me write on topic me no understand.

Seriously dunc, I'm totally envious I didn't see the connection to the cow problem. Hopefully the future will hold more opportunities to deploy it.

mds said...

I haven't got any proposed solution, but I'll tell you this: solar panels are not. Gonna. Fucking. Do it.

I beg to differ. Simply drop the solar panels on people who reproduce above the replacement rate and their excess progeny.

And what's the fun of assuming a spherical cow, if you also take away friction? Or have I said too much?

Anyway, when we posthumans are enjoying our immersive World of Warcraft tourneys inside the matrioshka brains of computronium surrounding the sun, we're going to resurrect Monsieur IOZ from his reconstructed state vector, just so we can mock him. And his absolutely adorable dog.

Anonymous said...

"A kick in the ass a step forward"

Unless conditions become supremely shitty, what would get us hoomans to get off our asses and move onto space X-ploration?

What casualty levels were taken by the exploring expeditions, or even the first waves of European settlers to the New World?

And no, killing people now because life may become difficult in the future - that's downright stupid.

I know that Stalin taught "No man - no problem". But mass slaughter "solution" can be implemented by any imbecile (from Hitler to Pol Pot).

The Christians

Cüneyt said...

Leonard, why stop at solar-power? If people could be fitted with ram-scoops, we could not only live off all the hydrogen in space, but explore while we're at it. There's so much energy in the universe; there's no limit to how much we can grow!

Leonard said...

Cuneyt, interstellar hydrogen is akin to dino juice, that is, non-renewable. But yes, your larger point is true, and of course the same as I was making. If we can get to other stars, there's a far higher limit on the human population. But from our current POV, here on Earth, with our modest technology, the case is no different than it is for "just" our solar system, or just the Earth: the population is a tiny fraction of the maximum supportable population as limited by resource. Thus, our effective population limit is not resources, but technology and capital.

Dunc said...

Tell me Leonard, where are we going to get the resources and the manufacturing capacity to cover a significant percentage of the Earth's surface with solar panels? How much will it cost and how long will it take? What is the maximum theoretical efficiency of solar conversion? Have you figured in net EROEI? Have you even considered the small matter that 7/10s of the Earth's surface is covered by ocean? Do you know what the conventional definition of "ecological overshoot" is?

And that's before we get to your ridiculous assertion that we could capture 10% of total insolation without totally fucking our (already very badly fucked) biosphere.

I've been looking at these sorts of issues for years. You have failed to consider any of the important factors. Yes, there is a vast amount of energy out there, if you could capture it - but there's a hell of a lot of problems hiding behind those two letters.

Then, of course, there's also the minor problem that people don't run on electricity. You can have all the electricity you want, and still find the population limited by the amount of bio-available phosphorous and potassium. Unless you're planning on uploading your mind state into a computer...

Mr.Fundamental said...

Leonard. . .is your last name, Nimoy?

Anonymous said...

'v course catching 10% of solar influx will create some crazy trouble - why 90% is needed to deal with the problems.

But Leonard was talking about a hard limit - and energy wise that's about it.

So proposing mass neutering or whatever because "we're running out of resources" that's just Nazi-Commie style "sacrifice for the common good" bullshit.

The Christians

Leonard said...

Dunc: most of land surface of the Earth is already covered with solar panels. You may be aware of them: they are called "plants". We obtain a substantial fraction of the energy we use by harnessing them indirectly. We also collect solar indirectly from oceans via fish.

As for your questions probing my knowledge of details, sorry, but this is a blog. It's not even a blog -- it's a comment on a blog. And it's not even a technical blog: it's a vanity blog focused on libertarianism and the Big Lebowski. If you want a thesis with footnotes, you'll have to look elsewhere. I'm sure you are super-educated, though it appears this does not translate into the capacity to see the big picture.

You find it "ridiculous" that we could capture even 10% yadda yadda. That is, you believe that you understand not just our current technological limits (which I am prepared to believe), but the limits of human technology in the distant future. That is hubris. I doubt you even grasp the technological limits of even 50 years from now, never mind 1000. Or 10000.

Absent such knowledge, you cannot say what the technological limits of tomorrow will be. Neither can I. This is my point.

Mr. Fun: no. But it is highly logical that you would think that.

Cüneyt said...

Oh, this is a vanity blog. Let's not confuse it for any of the hard-working, serious policy blogs out there. That's where you'll find the serious details on making humankind depend on nothing but sunshine and bullshit.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

let's just burn earth and hope that by the time it stops burning, Leonard's prognostications about techno-saving will turn true and present themselves.

invest in technology.

pray to technology.

defer to technology.

pump and dump is a strategy for humans and planets, apparently.

hopefully Mr Nimoy will return with his evidence that technology has saved humans at every crucial point in human history.

Cüneyt said...

Come on, now. Let's not seriously smear Mr. Nimoy. He takes pictures of large women. Leonard won't believe in world hunger until we're burning women for heat. Efficiency is a mighty god, always demanding, never sated.

Next: why don't we amputate our legs and invest in more perfect prostheses? It is only your narrow-mindedness that keeps us from pushing humanity to its full, squalid potential!

Montag said...

saving the planet is the new millenarianism for the new millennium. good luck with that.

annie oakley said...

Seriously blogging, what I would'nt give for a sock full of manure.

NutellaonToast said...

I want more Leonard. He's awesome.

Anonymous said...

Cuneyt dixit:

"Next: why don't we amputate our legs and invest in more perfect prostheses? It is only your narrow-mindedness that keeps us from pushing humanity to its full, squalid potential!"


Why, isn't plastic surgery the best paying medical business? So we're already there, in cahanging the body for squalid purposes.

And let's not forget the eunuchs and castrati, and varied hideous body modifications forced on kids and wymin in wog lands. And China.

- this era does not have a monopoly on squalor, no matter how religioid exhortations of vulgar culture would have us. Just that the blasted foot technology is lagging behind.

The Christians

Cüneyt said...

I don't think you're actually replying to what I was saying, guy.

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