Monday, April 05, 2010

Legit

I have a huge boner for this Charlie Davis post, but of course, I rise for just about anything that pisses and coughs in the direction of: "The state is the entity that has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence, force and coercion." Goodness! I think of the State's soi-disant legitimacy monopoly as vaguely Microsoftische, with your various Talibans &c. playing iPad to the clunky desktop OS. There is no control panel, man. Like, it's totally user interface. Violence unmediated by pulldown menus. You get the picture. The State's claims to the legitimate use of violence and coercion are all enforced by violence and coercion anyway. Ask a dead Pashtun tribesman if he thinks the American bomb that killed him was any more legitimate than the misfired bullet in a Homewood carjacking and see what he's got to say. Anyway, lots of violence and coercion have arguments for their own legitimacy. Getting your kneecaps broken because you're shorting on payments to your bookie is just as legit as wage garnishment for failure to pay back taxes. Right? Wrong? Why?

Like Charlie and Jon, I find myself flapping between a grin and a frown when considering the amount of ink and air good liberals spend justifying their little death machine on the grounds that, though it is a shame to kill all those foreigners, some little old lady's SSI check makes it all worthwhile. Here we have Barack Obama arguing that we have to keep killing people in order that we soemday reach a point when we can stop killing them responsibly, and I'm supposed to believe that the great threat to my own democracy whiskey sexy is a gang of underemployed flyover yahoos who want to yell slogans at the government and unwittingly hitch themselves to a domestic false flag operation? Girl, please.

52 comments:

Mr.Fundamental said...

I just want what Bill Hicks wanted. for my birthday.

George Jones said...

Yeah, but, IOZ, dude, those tea-partiers can't even spell. Meanwhile Obama gives entire speeches, each one full of words you just know are spelled right on the teleprompter, and he went to Harvard. His complete sentences, nice suits and impeccable credentials clearly mean he has our best interests at heart, and that he can and should be trusted 100%.

Anonymous said...

seriously, IOZ, you turn a good phrase, and sometimes your insights are witty

but for god sakes, give the "soi-disant" a rest. Seriously, you use the same goddamn phrase in almost every single post, its so dumb and pretentious sounding

Anonymous said...

speaking of the death machine that liberals and conservatives alike bend over backwards to justify, you might find this interesting

video released on wikileaks just a few hours ago of an American Apache chopper in Iraq mowing down a crowd which included two journalist from Reuters and two children

some gruesome stuff
http://collateralmurder.com/

IOZ said...

Oh dear we would certainly not want to come off as pretentious. Heaven, uh, forfend.

Jack Crow said...

Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.
Soi-disant.

Heh. I love the term. So-called, self-spoken, self-styled, self-claimed.

It's a good word to describe the tautologies and disconnected, self-involved reveries of state justification for violence: "We had to shoot, because they're breaking the law, because we passed the law, because there was shit outside our control, because out-side-our-control means uncivilized, you know, like people just shooting each other..."

MichaelRyerson said...

'...dumb and pretentious...' hahaha, ya think? thanks, I needed that.

Jack Crow said...

The Prophet of the Lesser Evil hath returned...

MichaelRyerson said...

Peanuts, peanuts, get yer red hot peanuts right here, 25 cents a bag, two fer fifty, get em right here, I can throw em behind my back fer the same price! here mister, pass this down will ya? thanks...ya wanna little swoidistant with that, bud?

AlanSmithee said...

I find the MichaelRyerson oeuvre to be soi-disant in a recherche sort of way.

Anonymous said...

see around these parts, this blog is the UN and IOZ is america. his pretension has legitimacy. yours is like the fucking taliban. go heard some goats.

Anonymous said...

I "herd" that!

MichaelRyerson said...

ya want some kraut on that or just mustard and sweet pickle relish?

rowan said...

You have got to be fucking kidding me. John Lewis needs to be respected as the embodiment of the state? Not because of anything he did that might be respectable, but because was elected once!

As if it would be okay to call him racial slurs if he weren't a representative.

As if it's not okay for me to say disrespectful shit about, say, Michelle Bachmann. She's a fucking moron. She's an embodiment of the state who is an insane fucking moron. I'm not gonna go yell this at her, because, you know, effort, but seriously.

Wasn't The Nation once respectable in some measure? Interesting?

mtraven said...

I think you and Davis are misreading the academic prose of Ms Harris-Lacewell. "Legitimacy" is one of those autonomous concepts that is works because people believe in it -- and that's what political science types mean by it. The power of the US is legitimate because most people accept it, and as soon they don't, it isn't, unless the US can crush the resistance. Eg, see the US Civil War. If the Confederacy had won they would be the legitimate power in their territory, but they didn't and so they aren't. The legitimacy of the USSR vanished practically overnight, after a few decades of being hollowed out by internal rot.

There is no particular moral value placed on legitimacy, but when the monopoly begins to fray at the edges and violence entrepeneurs start competing, it is scary and dangerous for bystanders. Sure the US Federal G may not be the ideal mob boss, but preferable to teabaggers and the opposition (whoever they are) shooting it out in street battles.

Michael Dawson said...

A plague on both these houses. Raving about a "mass murdering state" without talking about the partial and utterly commanding interests within civil society that the "mass murdering state" represents is to provide tea to the baggers, which this clown does anyhow, and worse.

Our challenge is to democratize, civilize, pacify, and (perhaps, if world population ever recedes enough to permit it) eventually phase out the state.

Collaborating in talking about "shutting it down," given present class relations and communications structures, is working to make the capitalist state, which isn't going anywhere so long as we have capitalism, even worse, as the tea baggers only hate the decent parts (hence their access to media coverage).

Charlie Davis is at least as much a fool as MH-L. Quite an achievement...

MichaelRyerson said...

Bingo! and a free soda to these last two.

George Jones said...

Sure the US Federal G may not be the ideal mob boss, but preferable to teabaggers and the opposition (whoever they are) shooting it out in street battles.

I believe you just wet your pants over a bunch of hicks with misspelled signs. Don't worry though, I think the military is using Apaches to deliver diapers to proggles now.

Our challenge is to democratize, civilize, pacify,

White Man's burden/Colonel Kurtz/manifest destiny/exceptionalism/etc etc zzzZZZzzz

Anonymous said...

"Our challenge"

haha. come again, dude?

Anonymous said...

He's using the royal we. You know, like the editorial.

Jack Crow said...

MD,

An honest question: Would you accept the home building assistance of a child rapist just because he was an expert in the building of houses?

Does that practiced skill balance out his penchant for destroying lives?

augustus818 said...

Micheal Dawson, If say by an apocalyptic cataclysm, the population was reduced to me and say 20 other people. And if I'm the only motherfucker waving around an AK at the other 20 saying "Start building my mansion, I'll be in my trailer, there better be some deli food left, AND NO BROWN M&M's THIS TIME!!" then we effectively have a "State". The fact that 99.9 percent of the human race went bye-bye doesn't change that nasty reality.

Also this whole "Collaborating on bringing down the state is a bad idea because then the teabaggers win" thing. Uhh, are you telling me you can't get a grip on Grandma Crotchety and Uncle Bosephus without the help of the CIA and the rest of the alphabet soup boys?

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Dawson, you had time to leave your Chomsky/Marx shrine to write a comment?

Wonders really don't ever cease.

Michael Dawson said...

Can any of you shooters muster a coherent question?

Who does the state work for?

As to you Ox, fascinating that you have me pigeonholed with a label now. Keep it up. You're a real resource for the people.

Christopher said...

The party that's out of power says, "dissent is the most patriotic American activity!" and the party in power says, "Have these dissidents no respect for the inherent dignity of the state?"

What surprised me, what still shocks me to this day, is how both Republicans and Democrats will switch from one of those arguments to another at the drop of a hat and with no shame whatsoever.

Somehow the folks at the Nation are talking about tea baggers the exact same way the guys at NRO talk about "sixties radicals". It's disgusting.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

What's most fascinating is Dawson's self-serious aspect. Beyond comedy, he is. Unable to be mocked, he is. How refined! How mannerly!

NutellaonToast said...

I love how this blawg is all "people are stupid following sheep with no real moral rules" but whenever ANYONE criticizes IOZ, the commentors spring to his defense!

Shit, if there's one thing IOZ does seem to believe in, it's competent writing. One might call using the same bullshit phrase over and over and over and over and over, well, bullshit. One might do that!

Now watch me get made fun of! Or is it of "fun I will be made?"

MichaelRyerson said...

Nah, oxtrot will be along to call you 'self-serious' any minute now.

Charles Davis said...

IOZ,

Thanks for the link; I'm glad you, uh, enjoyed the post.


Mr. Dawson,

I don't dispute your claim that I'm a fool, but you seem to have gleaned an awful lot about my views on how to transition to a stateless society that I don't recall including in that piece. And if you want to know who the state works for, you can start by checking out opensecrets.org.

Rowan said...

Eh. He does use "soi-distant" a lot, yes. And it does sound pretentious, sure.

It is what it is, bra.

Joe said...

"Who does the state work for?"

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work for you or me. Good luck "democratizing" that. Like it or not, the "teabaggers," as misguided as some of them may be, might actually be onto something.

Michael Dawson said...

I wasn't asking who does the state work because I don't have my own view of on the topic. I was asking because Mr. Davis talks about the state as if it were a runaway train, rather than an instrument of power for corporate capitalists.

And, if I believed the state were not democratizable, I would certainly not be spending any mental time on politics.

As to Ox, it's humorous to be called self-serious by the larger-than-Chomsky, unfunny likes of you. Soi-disant indeed.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Never said I was larger than Chomsky, Dawson dearest. Said he hadn't taught me anything, which is far different. Obviously your worship of him is far higher in stature, in Dawson-land, than your utter disdain of me.

I enjoy how you insist I was shaped and formed by The Noam, though. That's a neat trick. How did he manage that, when I've never read him until AFTER someone told me my writing was an echo-chamber for Chomsky?

Yes, Chomsky is the one and only, the aboriginal. Nobody can possibly have made the same observations as The Noam. After all, he's at MIT and he spawned George Lakoff. Which counts for nearly everything, in Dawsonville.

Even when I cite Chomsky in mockery of Dawson's childish worship of the man, Dawson insists on demonstrating how he does indeed worship The Noam, while protesting that he doesn't.

That's the most un-snarky snark I've witnessed from Dawson in the 3 weeks we've been battling over this essential-ness and primacy of The Noam.

Please, Mikey D -- bring it back around! PROVE that I was formed by The Noam, shaped by The Noam, and rendered redundant by The Noam. Prove that with all your blusterous worship of Herrn Chomsky the Greater!

Chomsky is BEYOND criticism! Thus spake Mikhail Douzhen!

Cüneyt said...

Uh, Blogger, why is my comment in the comment window, but not on the post proper?

Mr.Fundamental said...

Anyway, I love people who act like the government ain't us. Guess what, guys. It's not just people who vote this way or that way who made the state. You all did this. We all did this. And guess what: even when you remove the state, new state will emerge. It's not a goddamn power pinata. You don't crack it open and get to sweep up all that autonomy back to yourselves. You'd just be on your knees all over again, and you'd have no ability to articulate your situation because you've so reified the guv'mint as some essential evil as opposed to an emergent one.

If I had my time again, I'd rather be a lemming

Jack Crow said...

I'm not an officeholder in any government.

When Barack Obama creates a kill list, including American citizens.

I literally had nothing do it with it.

I don't own that shit, and I'd kindly appreciate not being lumped in with it.

Anonymous said...

See, Mr. Fun, this is why you're not anywhere near being the most functionally retarded motherfucker to ever post here. You were king for a while, but look at this kid Oxtrot. You've gotten complacent and fat. Sometimes you're close to being lucid, even. But this boy brings the high-caliber retardation day after day. And he really doesn't seem to have the slightest self-awareness of how fucking stupid he is.

Brian M said...

But Jack Crow, did you speak fondly of how many medals "We" won at the Olympics. Or do you muse about the suffering of "our" boys engaged in profitable liberating activities in the dusky folks' lands? If so...you are guilty guilty guilty. :)

Jack Crow said...

Nyet, Brian.

Here on the hill between two rivers, we've reduced our possessive category to our chilluns, and even barely so at that.

If we don't claim our sons as "ours" them perhaps some do-gooder/ne'er-do-well will sign them up for guest privileges in the orphan house, on the way to entering their names on the lists for the meat grinder war machine.

Michael Dawson said...

The evidence is that the state works for us a little and for the rich and powerful, whose power has at least one foot in the private economy, mostly.

So, when "radical" libertarian children start saying the state doesn't work for me/us, one wishes it were true. No cops, no schools, no economic redistribution or Social Security of health and safety inspections, no fire departments, no transportation infrastructures, etc. etc.

Meanwhile, pray tell where your just like Chomsky stuff might be found, Ox. I've seen your various supposedly playful websites, and that ain't it. But it was probably Pat Nixon who make the comment, so I won't hold my breath.

Mr.Fundamental said...

maybe a little bored, is all. carry on.

Joe said...

It cracks me up how libertarians are always portrayed as "children" for...what, exactly? For objecting to being ruled by a bunch of self-interested fat cats and their politician stooges?

And as to your list of "services" provided by the govt--all for the benefit of the people, no doubt--not one of them couldn't be provided for on a voluntary basis without even any earth-shattering restructuring of society. Fire departments would be a no-brainer. There are already volunteer fire departments all over the place. What you wouldn't have, though, is firemen's unions holding entire city govts hostage to their demands for cush benefits and pensions, while everybody else gets shit. And cops. What are they really but a glorified collection agency for the state?

MichaelRyerson said...

Yep, 'children' just about does it. Thanks, Joe.

Cüneyt said...

Objection to office holders being idiots makes you a libertarian?

Well, that's all it takes to get a libertarian to say you're a libertarian just like him, so I guess same diff.

Maybe the whole "children" rap is about the elementary arguments?

Joe said...

More like an objection to office holders, period. But no, I wouldn't say that that alone makes you a libertarian.

There are obviously plenty of critics of the currently existing (U.S.) state who aren't libertarians—anti-war lefties; anti-welfare righties. The difference is that these people aren't opposed to state power per se, just how it's used.

Not sure what you mean by the "elementary arguments." My feeling is that the children rap is based on the notion that libertarians are like six-year-olds, willfully refusing to accept reality—reality being that the state is necessary to keep society from degenerating into a dog-eat-dog nightmare. Maybe they're right. My problem is that this 1) ignores the fact that the state is the biggest dog of all, and 2) assumes that regular people couldn't possibly fend for themselves. (Now, granted, in order for “statelessness” to work, people would have to be constantly on guard against concentrations of power forming; but this is not unlike the vigilance required to be a proper citizen of a democratic republic, except that in the democratic republic there are all kinds of restrictions put on how people can redress the abuses of those in power.)

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Dawson, are you still trying to declare victory on this Chomsky thing, while still claiming you don't worship him? The actions betray the motive, Mikey.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Cuneyt, context is everything, and you're missing the context. But that's a nice try. If this were horseshoes or hand grenades, you might gain a point, or a blown-off extremity.

MichaelRyerson said...

sorry oxtrot, the only people who call me mikey are people who got nothing. you got nothing. too dull for wit and too stiff for stand-up. try again.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Bubba, I was talking to the puppet called Dawson, not the one called Ryerson!

I still wonder how Dawson's gonna show me how Chomsky formed me in the absence of my exposure to Chomsky. Only deities have that power, and Dawson steadfastly suggests he's not worshiping a deity -- only defending an intellectual giant from a lilliputian called Oxtrot. Very swift!

MichaelRyerson said...

doesn't change much. you're still too stiff for stand-up and nobody calls a 'Michael' 'Mikey' unless they're insecure and looking for a way to feel less afraid. sorry.

Cüneyt said...

Joe, when Dawson starts talking about services provided by states either near or far and then you come out with a nonsequitur like:

"It cracks me up how libertarians are always portrayed as "children" for...what, exactly? For objecting to being ruled by a bunch of self-interested fat cats and their politician stooges?"

That's an elementary argument.

It goes like this, at least in my head. (And let's not talk about facing reality, which far too many libertarians believe would lead to people becoming libertarian.)

Person A makes argument bashing libertarianism.
Libertarian makes argument that usually goes like some variation of: "What's wrong with freedom? Do you hate freedom?" Or, in your case, "Libertarians just don't like politicians; what's wrong with that?" You ignore all the bullshit baggage that goes along with various schools of libertarianism, like the lack of perspective, the belief that they're either the sole keepers of the Constitutional flame or that they've come up with something really new and unique, or the complete inability to be skeptical about their own utopian planning... The fact that there is an award for libertarian scifi... The name sounding retarded. You know; those are why libertarianism is pathetic and annoying.

Joe said...

Cuneyt,

Dawson asked who the state works for. I said I'm pretty sure it doesn't work for us. Dawson responded that it does and it doesn't, then took his swipe at "libertarian children." Hence my addressing the subject of libertarians being portrayed as children.

You'll notice, by the way, that in the second paragraph of the same response I did address the list of services provided by the state--the only response to which was more about how pathetic libertarians are. (Talk about lame arguments. Somebody points out the fact of state violence and oppression, and some do-gooder comes back with the same warmed-over shit about the schools and who'll build the fucking roads. Like without the state we'd all be a bunch of shoeless illiterates driving around on dirt tracks.)

As for the rest of your comments, I agree, there are a lot of self-styled (soi-disant?) libertarians who are assholes. But so what? I'm not particularly wedded to the label. But I feel no need to disavow it either.