Thursday, May 20, 2010

Dumber and Dumbest

Professional Annoying Human Person Individual Rachel Maddow is a goddamn moron, although, to be fair, Rand Paul appears to be even dumber, despite having inherited a world-view marginally closer to my own. So, she is interviewing Paul, a libertarianische type, and hauls out the ol', "What about the lunch counters! Discrimination! Business! Aahhhhhh!"

Now this is basically a huge liberal canard, as inaccurate in its way as the conservative proposition that Martin Luther King, Jr. was in favor of what they call a colorblind society because of one line from his "I Have a Dream" speech. The segregation of lunch counters and restaurants, like the segregation of buses and schools, was a matter of law, not a matter of individual businesses making individually racist decisions. Perhaps those businesses would've done it anyway; perhaps some still would given the opportunity. But the fact remains: in the Jim Crow South, state and local laws affirmatively mandated racial discrimination and segregation. Systematic discrimination was systematic, you see. It is just a terribly false, tendentious, and specious argument, this claim that absent the heavy hand of the federal government, every diner owner South of the historic Mason-Dixon line will slap up a Whites Only sign. Look, the problem faced by Blacks in the segregated South wasn't that they'd get kicked out of the segregated lunch counter. It was that they would get arrested. So, you know, let's get the matters of source and authority straight here.

Like I said, Paul le jeune seems like some kind of retarded android leftover from the back lot of some unfilmed Star Trek franchise. He manages to cough out one interesting point, which must have been accidental, because he promptly manages to forget to follow up on it. He says, Hey, we've had a lot of re-segregation. And indeed, the drug war, the American penal system, and the creation and subdivision of public school districts have proven to be the trifecta for achieving a rigid system of de facto racial segregation even in the absence of a legal Jim Crow regime . . . even in the presence of Civil Rights legislation. I said this during the Ron Paul campaign and I will say it again. A libertarian who hates Black people, thinks they are racially and genetically inferior, and would, given the opportunity, refuse to serve racial minorities at his own business could nevertheless be better for Blacks than any cruise missile liberal. Ending the drug war and closing prisons and not sending poor Black people to die in crazy foreign adventures based on hazy "humanitarian" principles is more important than paying lip service to the Civil Rights office at the DOJ. For realz.

122 comments:

George Jones said...

And of course the Gawker writer-New Yorker is on board with Maddow. "You mistrust concentrated state power? You, sir, are a racist."

Far worse, though, is the irritating use of one-word sentences and sarcastic exclamation points.

Blakenator said...

Thanks for pointing that out, IOZ. As you have shown several times before, American history tends to become dogma with the parts we don't like edited out.

Anonymous said...

uh, isn't it like a proper tenet of faith on this-here blog n'all that business and the state is contiguous? it's not like if only the mean old racist authoritarian president of the CSA or whoever had said "alrighty I guess y'all can fraternize with coloreds if'n ya wanter" that segregation would've disappeared; it took the violence of the federal government to do that, and to keep it that way long enough that now a business that discriminated against minority patrons in most parts of the country would in fact go out of business.

IOZ said...

I think your last point is dubious, 12:31, but absolutely it took the coercive power of the feds to compel its subsidiary states and localities to give up Jim Crow, although I think you're also missing the larger point, which is that segregation has not disappeared. It's evolved, arguably into something more pervasive nationally, more inexorable, and more odious than at anytime since the end of Reconstruction.

Anonymous said...

IOZ, I like a lot of what you say, but, damn man, you got this one wrong. I'm black and old enough to remember when my own aunt was arrested during the protests at the Greensboro, NC (she was a student at NCA&T). She was arrested for trespassing after refusing to leave Woolworth's at the request of the manager. Jim Crow laws applied to public buildings and transportation. Private businesses were free to institute their own policies. Woolworth's segregated their lunch counters in the south as a business policy. The protests were intended to force a change in corporate policy (which was ultimately successful), they were not aimed at changing laws.

By the way, segregated eating establishments continued to exist in the south years after the Jim Crow laws were overturned...

Jack Crow said...

Digby makes it worse:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/whos-his-daddy-looking-back-at-paul.html

And segregation continued here in New England long, long after the law forbid it.

In business, but also in academia and government.

It's not all top down, IOZ - even though your larger point could probably be sustained on its own merits.

Jack Crow said...

I'm really not comfortable with the root assumption that business and government, in the South, were separate categories.

We are discussing capitalists.

The people who owned the businesses ran the government, or gave full support to it.

Jim Crow may have come out of State Houses, but it was business which put the candidates on the slate, funded their campaigns, and paid for their endorsements.

Especially in the South, where the landed aristocracy persisted longer than almost anywhere except Argentina - and controlled not only the legislatures, but the small holders, industry and academia.

David said...

I did myself the disservice of reading the comment thread and, as usual, have no idea what the fuck people are talking about(it's party that I'm an idiot, but I don't think it's just that).

Paul is something of a clown-shoe, but he's closer to the mark than Maddow is here, even if it is by accident.

IOZ said...

Actually, 1:12, restaurants, department stores, etc. were typically included under the heading of "public buildings." And nothing I wrote implies that private businesses weren't complicit. Business is still complicit in segregation. But Jim Crow was a legal regime, not just a customary practice.

Anonymous said...

I'm pinkish and young enough to realize that the end (racial harmony) does not justify the means (anti-discrimination laws). Your laudable goal does not automagicly allow you to restrict everyone's freedom to associate. You cannot legislate away innate human nature - everyone discriminates.

Picador said...

What 1:12 said. IOZ, you're wrong about this one.

When I need to pull out a quick argument to problematize the rhetoric of anarchism and local community autonomy, I like to fall back on stuff like this. IOZ can move the goalposts all he wants in equating the powers of the states with those of the federal government, but at the end of the day the most terrifying enforcer of institutionalized racism in the South was not a Fed, nor a state trooper, but just a bunch of neighbors. Federal civil rights legislation, enforced at the point of a government gun, is what extinguished the private culture of Jim Crow and lynching. It's unfortunate that "libertarians" and anarchists are so unwilling to honestly confront this inconvenient bit of history.

Anonymous said...

Indeed pinkish, you (and Rand Paul) lack an understanding of why anti-discrimination laws are necessary, as you've never lived in a world where those in power are brownish, and think it perfectly acceptable to deny you access to decent education, housing, jobs, bank loans, and lunch, based solely upon your being pink. Please report back when you have that experience...

la Rana said...

If you think segregation has ended or is not the dominant form of socio-racial organization in this country, you do not live anywhere near an MLK boulevard. To give just one example, public schools, which tend to reflect their communities, are more segregated than before Brown v. Board. See Myron Orfield.

The sad sad truth is that the civil rights movement utterly failed. The laws changed, public opinion changed, and everyone just assumed it would work out. It hasn't. Jim Crow was replaced with ghettoization, which was replaced by mass incarceration. See Loic Wacquant.

As relevant to IOZ's point, the conclusion is not "it would get even worse without the CRA!," but "the CRA served the useful purpose of raising public consciousness to the inhumanity of phenotypic discmination, but did almost nothing to stop it."

Legally permitting private business to discriminate on the basis of skin color wouldn't change a damn thing. Unfortunately.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Justin said...

Ioz,
Have to disagree. "It is just a terribly false, tendentious, and specious argument, this claim that absent the heavy hand of the federal government, every diner owner South of the historic Mason-Dixon line will slap up a Whites Only sign."

Sundown Towns

Solar Hero said...

Seems there is a lot of confusion regarding the Monsieur's points.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, IOZ, I spent a lot of time visiting relatives in NC and VA during the early 60s. There were restaurant chains, hotels, etc., that were known to (quite legally) serve all comers, and many more that would not. Those were business choices, not a matter of public policy. Things were a bit more complicated in the deep south (Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, etc.), as they did have discriminatory public accommodation laws. But, arguing that bringing up lunch counters as an example of business discrimination is somehow moronic, is a bit, uh, moronic...

IOZ said...

Well, Solar, there is generally not a lot of willingness to move beyond "racism is bad and then the Civil Rights movement." Liberal defenses of government hinge very strongly on civil rights legislation as a sort of universally overriding good that justifies Our Democracy despite all its other depredations. Obviously, cf. La_Rana's righteous point. But, you know, I am pretty tickled by people who are like, "My grandma suffered discrimination in the South" as some kind of analytical bona fide. I mean, shit, I am descended on the maternal side from much-discriminated against Southern Jews, but I do not avail myself of Great-Aunt Zelda in order to show that I know what I'm talking about.

Truth Excavator said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Truth Excavator said...

Rand Paul shot himself in the foot in that interview, and to make matters worse, he started hopping in a circle on one leg. I'm all for politicians being completely forthright about their views but the major media isn't exactly philosophically minded. Maddow and other progressives don't care about the finer details of libertarian thought. Rand should've just said "This is a philosophical discussion, and this issue is not of any importance in my political candidacy. At another time I would like to have an academic debate with you at an academic institution. I support the Civil Rights Law, and I abhor discrimination. And I want to discuss bailouts and foreign policy."

stras said...

Seriously, IOZ, I love you and all, but you're clearly talking out your ass on this one, although I expect it might take another fifty comments or so before you fess up to the fact that you've got your facts wrong.

Christopher M. said...

Seems there is a lot of confusion regarding the Monsieur's points.

There'd be less confusion if the Monsieur didn't appear to be confused about the Monsieur's points.

Demize! said...

Holy fucking shit does she irritate me. I would tend to somewhat disagree with your assertion of the level of Southern anti Jewish sentiment. Wasn't Judah P. Benjamin the Vice President of the Confederacy? They for the most part were a component of Southern Aristocracy, not easily identifiable as where blacks. There was I'm sure Anti-Semitism as there was Anti-Catholic sentiment.

Anonymous said...

IOZ, (anon @12:31 here), I'm definitely agreeing with you that institutional racism is still present and has evolved into things that aren't perhaps readily apparent as racism. But regarding your second paragraph, in a related point to the one Picador makes above ("but at the end of the day the most terrifying enforcer of institutionalized racism in the South was not a Fed, nor a state trooper, but just a bunch of neighbors.") -- the South was segregated not because of state power, but because most people wanted it that way. Of course that resulted in legislation, but the are the same at base.

la Rana said...

"the South was segregated not because of state power, but because most people wanted it that way."

Yo, the South is segregated. As is the north, east and west.

I concede that this reality explodes y'alls dogmatic assumptions, but there she be.

Anonymous said...

Rand Paul and the Tea Party movement represent more Rove marketing gimmicks. Identify an easily mobilized slice of the electorate that can both dominate debate and will go to the polls and give them a cleverly packaged empty suit to vote for.

If there is spillover from brain dead simps that read Atlas Shrugged and still play dungeons and dragons and the religious right all the better.

As if Rand Paul wants to end the prison industrial complex and the drug war.

Jack Crow said...

Backing up la Rana-

Been through Harrisburg, PA lately?

Literally divided in half by the rail road tracks, with all the nice art, government and commerce buildings along the Susq. and the black side of town looking like any other you might find from Binghamton to Roanoke, or from Roanoke to Virginia Beech, or anywhere along US 10, or most places along I-95, until you get far enough North to find no concentrations of black people of any note.

Anonymous said...

IOZ is certainly right about these things:

1. Rachel Maddow is a dumbass.
2. Rand Paul is a dumbass.
3. Very pernicious unofficial resegregation has taken place since official segregation was outlawed.

IOZ is wrong in seeing segregation as a top-down phenomenon that without state fortification would not really be much of a problem. Whether racism starts at the top or at the bottom is kind of irrelevant anyway. If you give business owners the right to discriminate on free association grounds, you are giving them legal fortification. Presumably the business owner will have the right to call the cops to have folks ejected in the same way you can call the cops on intruders in your house. Even if there is an official hands-off policy that neither fortifies nor denies the right to discriminate, violence is likely to ensue and that will necessitate involvement of police. A policy will be born.

IOZ is arguably right in implying that a racist libertarian who was against wars and drug laws could unintentionally do more good than liberals do. But a lot rides on the extent to which his racism gains traction in the culture in relation to his opposition to foreign wars and drug laws. Most racists are probably not against wars or prisons or drug laws, and so you can imagine a situation where dormant racism becomes more active while the prison- and military-industrial complexes are left intact or strengthened.

Anonymous said...

Is current institutional racism as much the product of explicitly acknowledged, personal, individual racist sentiment as were Jim Crow and private biz' "Whites Only" signs? I'd say no.

Does this distinction matter? Probably not. Does it matter that the worst thing a kid in high school can be called is no longer a faggot, but a racist? (You WILL get your ass kicked for the latter, while the former ... it depends.) Fuck, I wish so, but I doubt it. Help me clarify my thinking here, folks, snarking aside.

And, IOZ, why do you capitalize "les Blacks"? I presume you do so to distinguish "black chick" from "the Blacks," "white brother" from "the Whites," and "Latino/Mexican/Bangladeshi dude" from "the Browns"?

IOZ said...

IOZ is wrong in seeing segregation as a top-down phenomenon that without state fortification would not really be much of a problem.

This is a straw man and not the argument that I made; you subsequently contradict it anyway in the very same paragraph; and you can provide no example of racism that is not "fortified" by the state.

As for "most racists" being against neither wars nor drug laws, I would ask 1.) who are most racists, and 2.) remind you that Ron Paul, who is arguably a racist, is demonstrably against both.

Otherwise, I agree.

Anonymous said...

My drunk, seemingly frattish friends (all white) and I almost got in a 5-on-5 fight with some equally drunk black guys on the decidedly integrated Phoenix Light Rail the other night. They talked shit, we talked shit back, and they said something about "Fuckin' whiteboys." Then an asshole friend-of-a-friend told them, "Let's get off the train, do this, and see who gets arrested." Nutshell, I suppose.

Anonymous said...

Systematic discrimination was systematic, you see. It is just a terribly false, tendentious, and specious argument, this claim that absent the heavy hand of the federal government, every diner owner South of the historic Mason-Dixon line will slap up a Whites Only sign.

Speaking of straw men . . . which is disappointing, because I was looking forward to the Maddox smackdown that never materialized.

Anonymous said...

Meanwhile, Paul has, err, changed his mind.

Anonymous said...

"HAPPY N***ER DAY!!!"

MiP said...

Perhaps those businesses would've done it anyway; perhaps some still would given the opportunity.

Systematic discrimination was systematic...

I don't think you get both "perhaps" and "systematic". If it's "perhaps", it's something less pervasive than systematic; if it's "systematic", "perhaps" should be "almost certainly", at least in the first case, and if you're agreeing with La Rana's point, and I understand your last paragraph, I imagine it's both.

Although this:

It is just a terribly false, tendentious, and specious argument, this claim that absent the heavy hand of the federal government, every diner owner South of the historic Mason-Dixon line will slap up a Whites Only sign.

... make me less than certain.

How exactly does that work?

Whites have used means that are not banned by the Civil Rights Act to segregate blacks and visit cruelty upon them, including (oh boy!) other, more underhandedly unjust laws, and even foreign policy(!); thus, whites would never, ever, ever put up "Whites Only" signs if the Civil Rights Act was repealed or had never been enacted. QED.

I don't think that conclusion quite follows from that premise.

Look, the problem faced by Blacks in the segregated South wasn't that they'd get kicked out of the segregated lunch counter. It was that they would get arrested. So, you know, let's get the matters of source and authority straight here.

Yes, let's get exactly that straight. The state and local majority population wants to oppress a state and local minority. They pass laws at the state and local level to accomplish it, so those goddamn moronic liberals passed the Civil Right Act to stop them.

So what? What exactly do you think liberals don't understand about this?

Just because whites are really devious, crafty racists, able to circumvent laws against discrimination and pass other laws to create more, I'm not quite sure it follows that the Civil Rights Act was a bad idea.

IOZ said...

A.) It doesn't matter whether or not the Civil Rights Act was a bad idea. It's a bad law because it didn't work.

B.) More broadly, regardin so-called progressive civil rights legislation, given the current state of affairs, it would behoove you to consider the more likely possibility that the apparent failure is in fact the function.

Mr.Fundamental said...

we've swallowed a lot of ideology about Civil Rights an`at, which we faithfully regurgitate at times like these. to think that there wouldn't be a um. . .racist. . .um. . .insurgency after a FEDERAL CRACKDOWN, seems a bit naive. aw hell, the FEDERAL CRACKDOWN was in fact really fucking naive, if not retarded. you're nuts if you think you can up and change a society like that, or from that. that's the whole fucking point, man. that's the whole gist of this blog, man: let people alone. permit everything. approve nothing. I can see how some of this might be confusing for some of ya'll. . .because I mean, the laws were there and they were bad to begin with. . .and we must never have such bad laws. . .therefore we must have better, more equitable, less racist laws? WHY DON'T YOU STOP ENFORCING STUPID FUCKING SHIT? how about that? why is that not the simplest and best argument? ENFORCE NOTHING. JUST FUCKING STOP. it actually is that breathtakingly simple.

I keep telling you, it's the Foundation's money. Father doesn't have any.

also: Herbie's in Steelton rules.

Anonymous said...

"I'm not quite sure it follows that the Civil Rights Act was a bad idea."

it was definitely a bad idea from the perspective of how it is used today as a QED to shut down any opposition to proggle actions. it might have helped people at the time, but it has definitely morphed into an ugly device of proggle enablers.

Anonymous said...

ME: OZ is wrong in seeing segregation as a top-down phenomenon that without state fortification would not really be much of a problem.

IOZ: This is a straw man and not the argument that I made; you subsequently contradict it anyway in the very same paragraph; and you can provide no example of racism that is not "fortified" by the state.

ME: I am not deliberately building straw men, I just don't think I understand what you are saying in the first part of your post. It seemed to me that you were conjuring some flavor of overt segregation that doesn't involve the use of force when you said:

'Look, the problem faced by Blacks in the segregated South wasn't that they'd get kicked out of the segregated lunch counter. It was that they would get arrested'

I really don't know what your point is and probably shouldn't comment further until I do.

IOZ: As for "most racists" being against neither wars nor drug laws, I would ask 1.) who are most racists, and 2.) remind you that

ME: Admittedly this is based entirely on personal experience of racists. i grew up in a very racist neighborhood and have had many associations with them and in my experience, overt racism frequently goes with an authoritarian bent that sits well with militarism and prisons. I have no stats to back this up, however.

IOZ: Ron Paul, who is arguably a racist, is demonstrably against both.

ME: I never said or implied that this was impossible and it certainly doesn't tell us anything meaningful about where if any correlations there are between racism and views on war and prisons.

Michael Dawson said...

Justin, like you, I'm not ready to belittle the importance of federal power in belatedly and reluctantly protecting the CRM. Neither do I see how the stupidity of the penal system has anything necessarily to do with libertarianism, other than that libertarians _claim_ they're against it (funny how it's always way in the back of the bus behind the "free market" though).

But, nonetheless, sundown towns are a Northern phenomenon, as Loewen shows.

IOZ said...

Look, Jeffrey, I don't want a partner. In fact I don't want the father to be someone I have to see socially, or who'll have any interest in rearing the child himself.

MiP said...

B.) More broadly, regardin so-called progressive civil rights legislation, given the current state of affairs, it would behoove you to consider the more likely possibility that the apparent failure is in fact the function.

Oh, I see. So when LBJ speculated that he might lose the South, Sorensen gave him a high-five. Gotcha. Wow, here I was, thinking Southern whites were crafty racists, whilst it's really the progressives who are super-duper crafty racists.

Anonymous said...

I'm in favor of federal legislation to stop Mr. Fun from posting his asinine, hallucinogenic tirades on this here blog. Jesus, what a dumb fucking pile of malodorous smegma he is.

Mr.Fundamental said...

No no, the wealth was all Mother's.

davidly said...

1) Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier because a businessman had the balls to put him in a Dodgers uniform.

2) Lenny Bruce said it well, when referring to the Christians having been fed to the lions, that being schlepped away from a lunch counter didn't sound so bad.

3) Maddow said, "The riveting story of the kidnapping and rescue of American captain Richard Phillips off the coast of Somalia this weekend has got the whole country brushing up on our East African geography, and our Indian Oceanography, and our 'have frigging impressive our Navy Seals-ology'...."

Sorry Rachel, but my geography is a little better, as is my history and knowledge of Somalia and her little problems, so why don'tcha ask or tell or not, but join up and start driving those bullets into the skulls yourself and stop being just a dyke cheerleader.

Fuck Rachel Maddow.

Anonymous said...

MDawson: Neither do I see how the stupidity of the penal system has anything necessarily to do with libertarianism

I believe its based on the idea that true libertarians are against the drug laws that keep so many non-violent offenders in jail.

MiP said...

it might have helped people at the time, but it has definitely morphed into an ugly device of proggle enablers.

The Civil Rights Act was bad because it was successful, and made people think other laws could be successful, dammit!

Anonymous said...

"The Civil Rights Act was bad because it was successful, and made people think other laws could be successful, dammit!"

whatever you think, dude. its your race baiting crutch, not mine.

b-psycho said...

And how many forcibly desegregated businesses simply treated every customer with respect from that point on, compared to the ones that simply switched from not admitting minorities to doing things like deliberately fucking with their food, having them followed on suspicion of stealing something, or lying about the availability of products that they request so they'll leave?

The reason blurring the line between "public" and private accommodations became viable in the context of civil rights in the first place was because more acceptable alternatives tended to get burned down. It's not that blacks wanted to go to Cracker Al's Diner...

Anonymous said...

“It doesn't matter whether or not the Civil Rights Act was a bad idea. It's a bad law because it didn't work.”
The intent of the CRA64 was to end the systematic disenfranchisement of blacks and legally enforced segregation of schools, workplaces and public accommodations.
There is simply no question the law was an overwhelming success on the first point: access to the ballot skyrocketed for African-Americans. Now as far as segregation is concerned, there seems to be a lot of confusion here regarding that. The law contained no language demanding integration: it outlawed legally codified segregation. In other words, you can’t pass a city ordinance mandating one drinking fountain in the town square be colored only and the other fountain be white only.
So if you remove both signs and one fountain and 20 years later only whites or only blacks drink from that fountain, that it is not proof the law failed. The law didn’t mandate whites and blacks drink out of the same fountain while holding hands and singing kumbaya. It only ended “separate but equal” – weather applied to schools, lunch counters, factories or water fountains.
And if people in any particular geographic location self-segregate, they are not in violation of the Act and said self-segregation is not proof the Act “didn’t work”. The CRA of 1964 did not mandate integration, it only outlawed legally sanctioned segregation.

augustus818 said...

It seems to me that the implication of the proggle argument to the detractors and critics is "Anything less than letting a black guy fuck you in the ass is RACIST!!! (oh and quite homophobic as well)

I would have fucked you in the ass today, I'll fuck you in the ass next wednesday instead. WHOOO! You got a day wednesday, BABY!

MiP said...

How is it my race baiting crutch? Where have I proposed, here or elsewhere, any "proggle actions" and shot down the opposition by calling them racists because of the Civil Rights Act? I merely restated the Anonymous commenter of 4:46 PM. His statement, (yours if it was you) was absurd, and I simply was emphasizing its absurdity.

Have I accused anyone in this thread of being a racist? (Hint, no, I haven't. In fact, I feel I've pretty careful about engaging actual arguments made.) I'm not even sure Rand Paul is one, based simply on this incident, although I'm pretty certain he lacks a certain amount of sensitivity and historical awareness. It's possible he painted himself into a corner on this one. "Even dumber", as our host has said.

If you want to project an argument someone else made somewhere else onto me here and now because you can't keep up, go right ahead.

Alexander Berkman said...

MiP, for these Starbucks anarchists, the state could exist solely to guarantee them professional handjobs every night and gourmet food at every meal, and they'd bitch about it because that's just What They Do. They started from their conclusion, and like all cult members, they just work in reverse to build their "argument."

frijoles junior said...

Fuck you, 3:07.

D&D is awesome.

And whether or not Rand Paul truly believes in breaking the prison-industrial complex and ending the Drug War, doing so would still be a good idea. It's nice to know that there are pols out there who find it expedient to be against those evils.

Gridlock said...

It takes a village to lynch one black guy but it takes a nation state to incarcerate millions of them and ensure ongoing submission.

Randy Newman said...

Yes he's free to be put in a cage
In Harlem in New York City
And he's free to be put in a cage on the South-Side of Chicago
And the West-Side
And he's free to be put in a cage in Hough in Cleveland
And he's free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis
And he's free to be put in a cage in Fillmore in San Francisco
And he's free to be put in a cage in Roxbury in Boston
They're gatherin' 'em up from miles around
Keepin' the niggers down

Alexander Berkman,

Unfuck Starbucks, wouldn't be a state if it solely did that shit, and just What Do You Do/is your "argument"? What the fuck are you even on about?

Anonymous said...

Why don't you address the issue of WHY racism exists? It's because blacks, as a group, average about 15 IQ points lower than whites. And somewhere between those two averages is apparently the minimum IQ to sustain the complex socio-economic values necessary for modern civilization. See: Africa, Detroit.

la Rana said...

The purpose of the civil rights act was to end the endemic "seperate but equal" nature of social institutions (though you can also just lift from the Wiki page as Anon 6:10 does). To argue that it succeeded because now there are now no laws that patently discriminate on the basis of race is like arguing that you changed teams because the team got a new jersey. There are now different reasons why American society remains just as racially segregated, but I tend to doubt that the proponents of the CRA would have thought it successful if the only subsequent social changes were revisions to books and signs.

Though it is true that without a state I could not enjoy good caffeinated beverages. I demand blowjobs! from the state...which would not be a state by the hopelessly confused proponents own definition. But hey, whats meaning when you've got accepted wisdom!

We've done the race thing. You lost.

Jack Crow said...

Anon @ 7:29 - you are far too easy a target. At least try to inkberrow your arguments.

Montag said...

i for one would take a bullet for Mr. Fun's continued ability to post astute, hilarious tirades on this here blog.

George Jones said...

I suggest we pass some ineffective legislation to improve the previous shitty legislation, then pass yet more legislation to patch holes in the ineffective legislation, and then pass another piece of legislation clarifying the previous three pieces of legislation, give people guns to enforce it, and thus end racism forever.

Cf. Crispy.

Demize! said...

Wow, Maddow is having a two day reductio ad absurdum festival. She is using a tuning fork as a prop...No Ilm not kidding.

Mr.Fundamental said...

It is just a terribly false, tendentious, and specious argument, this claim that absent the heavy hand of the federal government, every diner owner South of the historic Mason-Dixon line will slap up a Whites Only sign.

it's fucking bigoted, is what it is. LIKE 30+ YEARS OF REDOCTRINATION HASN'T FIXED ANYTHING IN PEOPLE'S MINDS. WAY TO GO TEAM. you're using the social mechanisms. . .outrage, scorn, ad hominum, right here and right now that should and have been used to salt out racist slugs. EXCEPT YOU'RE USING IT ALL AGAINST A GUY WHO IS ARGUING THAT IF WE ELIMINATE THE RULE OF LAW THAN THERE WILL BE LESS PEOPLE RULING OTHER PEOPLE. fuck me, babies. you're fucking retarded, if you ask me. like our friends in Belfast who told us that most people in Europe were afraid that if we elected a black man as President somebody might take him out because of his skin color. that's just great.

like people couldn't do fine on their own without government, or some overwhelming authority. they just couldn't. it would be sooo uncivilized!

WHO'S THE NIHILIST NOW MUTHERFUCKERZ!!1! enjoy your post-race harvest.

Mr.Fundamental said...

and a high five to Montag. I got your back too, bubs!

Anonymous said...

IOZ: "..although I think you're also missing the larger point, which is that segregation has not disappeared. It's evolved, arguably into something more pervasive nationally, more inexorable, and more odious than at anytime since the end of Reconstruction."

Agree as to the odiousness. Agree it has evolved, aided and abetted by state power (sundowner laws, which see). Disagree that it's worse than anything seen since, like, 1883. That is standard IOZ hyperbole, the kind of hyperbole that can easily be twisted into a justification of southern de jure segregation since "those folks" don't know how good they had it.

Further, cruise missle liberals may or may not support the drug war tyranny, and those that do are part of a larger political coalition keeping this farce going.

And glibertarians are allied closely with conservatives of all stripes, especially the GOP (they are as much a captive of the GOP as the erstatz left is a doormat for business friendly Democrats). Asserting they would be "better" for blacks by ending drug laws and overseas adventures overlooks the largest harm--keeping them economically poor.

Alors, y'all.

--Donny

Anonymous said...

The libertarian position against militarism is a bit like the Catholic church's position aginst the death penalty.

It's something they sort of believe in but won't really fight for.

On the other hand, the libertarian position against univeral health care and the Catholic church's positions on gay marriage and abortion are deadly serious.

I think anybody who thinks that blacks in America would be better under the ideology of the Mises Institute than under even the worst cruise missile liberal is painfully, painfully naive.

Anonymous said...

Ending the drug war and closing prisons and not sending poor Black people to die in crazy foreign adventures based on hazy "humanitarian" principles is more important than paying lip service to the Civil Rights office at the DOJ.

Another problem is that you just flat out get your facts wrong here.

Blacks may have served in the military out of proportion to their numbers during the Vietnam era but one of the results of that Civil Rights era that you dismiss is that blacks became significantly more anti-militarist than whites.

Remember, it wasn't always the case since ever since the Civil War blacks saw the US military as a force that would be used against segregation and Jim Crow.

But in the late 60s and early 70s blacks became significantly more anti-war than whites.

Thus, the people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan tend to be working class whites from the south and midwest.

If blacks are harmed dispropionately by militarism than it has more to do with cutting domestic social programs than it does with sending blacks off to die in foreign wars.

JM said...

" A.) It doesn't matter whether or not the Civil Rights Act was a bad idea. It's a bad law because it didn't work"

What the hell do you mean by this? Just because it didn't bring down the government means it was irrelevant. Explain.

Anonymous said...

It is just a terribly false, tendentious, and specious argument, this claim that absent the heavy hand of the federal government, every diner owner South of the historic Mason-Dixon line will slap up a Whites Only sign.

You really need to get out more.

Jess said...

A question: if we were to rank all the problems of "The African-American Community", wouldn't locking up hundreds of thousands of African-American men for victimless crime be pretty close to the top of the list?

As hard as it is to get this through your status-quo-loving pwoggy skulls, a large and growing minority of Americans want to legalize drugs. If you're working against that, I hope you're at least getting a piece of that sweet, sweet enforcement-prison-industrial complex action.

Michael said...

A question: if we were to rank all the problems of "The African-American Community", wouldn't locking up hundreds of thousands of African-American men for victimless crime be pretty close to the top of the list?

I would say yes, but, there is no guarantee that loosening up drug laws would automatically reduce the hyperincarceration of poor black maies -- at least over the long term -- since drug laws are simply a strategem of hyperincarceration, not the cause.

As others have mentioned, there is also a great chance that real libertarian ideas, like ending the drug war, will have the same impact on the Republican party as real left ideas have on the Democrats.

Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

12:07 AM: The libertarian position against militarism is a bit like the Catholic church's position aginst the death penalty. ... It's something they sort of believe in but won't really fight for.

I'm not sure what you expect in terms of "really fighting for" the libertarian position against militarism. It's certainly true that there are many people who call themselves "libertarian" who don't spend enough time talking about anti-militarism or doing antiwar organizing. But, while I have plenty o' problems with outfits like the Mises Institute, I do think the suggestion that they aren't serious enough in their opposition to American militarism is, well, rather eccentric. (One might also mention minor libertarian projects like Antiwar.com.)

Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

12:31 PM: s not like if only the mean old racist authoritarian president of the CSA or whoever had said "alrighty I guess y'all can fraternize with coloreds if'n ya wanter" that segregation would've disappeared; it took the violence of the federal government to do that,

Well, except that Woolworth's lunch counters weren't desegregated by Title II.

They were mainly desegregated by the social and economic pressure created by the student sit-in movement and the boycotts that accompanied it. Years before the Civil Rights Act even existed. The Greensboro Woolworth's was desegregated in July 1960, and the Nashville Student Movement won a desegregation agreement from all the downtown merchants in Nashville in May 1960. If they had waited around for the Feds to show up with Title II, they would have been waiting at least four years. (Or, more likely, they would have been waiting forever, because the cultural changes created by their direct action were a major part of what made it even possible for later legislative actions to get through the Democratic Congress.)

1:12 PM: The protests were intended to force a change in corporate policy (which was ultimately successful), they were not aimed at changing laws.

I agree, which is exactly why it's a ridiculous example for Maddow to try to use to prove her point against Paul. The sit-ins are relevant to the conversation, but in exactly the opposite of the way that Maddow (and apparently also Paul, because Paul is a moron and a politician) seem to think: they are a remarkable example of how a grassroots social movement succeeded in dismantling segregation in private businesses without the assistance of federal antidiscrimination laws.

Anonymous said...

So, I have to wonder where these guys live who think that the CRA and associated legislation are just swell. Bet you have a black population of less than 10% and they are all doing just dandy.

The part of town where I grew up down is now a dung heap. It turned quick. Unnaturally quick. You can pretty much track the decline about 5 years after the CRA, when they 1) Started busing kids around the county to meet racial quotas 2) Started plopping nice little housing projects here and there to help those less advantaged black families and 3) When HUD came in to try to help the less advantaged live next door to the more fortunate.

You can't look at that part of town and see it as anything but a complete failure. This was a relatively new town that did not have a history of racial problems, but now it is segregated more than any Old South town from the 1950s.

Nice job, assholes. Mission accomplished?

Jess said...

@Michael: ...there is no guarantee that loosening up drug laws would automatically reduce the hyperincarceration of poor black [males] -- at least over the long term -- since drug laws are simply a strategem of hyperincarceration, not the cause.

If we let them all out tomorrow, they'll all be out tomorrow. Do you imagine a massive driving-without-insurance crackdown to keep the prisons full in the absence of drug prohibition? Maybe the crime wave sparked by unemployed corrections officers will balance everything out? b^)

I agree that drugs and even race are incidental to the real goal of transforming citizens into incarcerated profit centers. One of the great things about lobbyists is, they only lobby when they expect to get paid. When we close half our prisons and the market cap of "Warmonk, Inc" takes a dive, I see the lobbyists slithering after some other swollen polyp of the fisc. Not that they won't cause problems there too, but surely the drug users will get a couple of years' peace.

As for your second paragraph, fuck the Republicans, fuck the Democrats, and fuck anyone who can't imagine anything else. Whom do you think the lobbyists are bribing? Ron Paul? Bernie Sanders?

Michael said...

If we let them all out tomorrow, they'll all be out tomorrow. Do you imagine a massive driving-without-insurance crackdown to keep the prisons full in the absence of drug prohibition? Maybe the crime wave sparked by unemployed corrections officers will balance everything out? b^)

I said 'over the long term' , meaning a system set upon keeping blacks in prison would likely adjust. Not all blacks are doing time go in for drug offense and not all blacks who are charged with crimes go to jail. There are ways in which the difference could be wholly or partially made up, in the unlikely event of some mass pardon.

As for your second paragraph, fuck the Republicans, fuck the Democrats, and fuck anyone who can't imagine anything else.

Oh yuck, you don't know what I imagine. Why is it that the nihilistic hopelessness around these parts goes all fuzzy when some winger has a bright libertarian idea or two? Things get all earnest and delusional, like liberals. It's really unbecoming. And by the way, the last time I checked, the guy allegedly putting us on the verge of empty prisons is a Republican.

Also, I never said, foolishly, that race is incidental to hyperincarceration, so whomever you are agreeing with on that point isn't me.

lucid said...

Kids... if a government has to exist, the only business it has is creating the conditions for the greatest amount of equality possible... [as if that is quantifiable]

And IOZ, while I love you hon, seriously, how did you miss the fact the the Aynchild discredited himself by being wholeheartedly for state and local regulation of business, but opposed to the federal enforcement of the 14th amendment.

And seriously, how the fuck did you write that second paragraph without having an historical aneurysm?

You are right on with respect to re-segregation and the ultimate failure of CRA64, and point your finger at the proper parties, but dude, sorry, no.

One of the few times I have a headache...

davidly said...

Anon 12:25 says that ...in the late 60s and early 70s blacks became significantly more anti-war than whites.

But anti-militarist activism in the Black community reached its peak in the sixties.

And as Rad Geek says: They were mainly desegregated by the social and economic pressure created by the student sit-in movement and the boycotts that accompanied it.

The anti-interventionist Black radicalism that accompanied the civil rights era is all but dead now that the likes of Cornell West and - ug - Paul Mooney share in our great post-race leader's victory. LBJ mollified Black leadership for the sake of Vietnam, whether that was his intention or not.

The greater likelihood that someone dying in the Middle East would be poor and White speaks to class. Take a look at the percentage of Blacks vs. the same for Whites who choose the military as an option after their federally mandated public education.

davidly said...

Anyway, Rand or Maddow is another false dichotomy, albeit the faux-radical variety.

The point is: What raised the stink in this little tête à tête was a red herring served up by the status quo.

Anonymous said...

But anti-militarist activism in the Black community reached its peak in the sixties.


Except in 2003, under 20 percent of African Americans supported the war in Iraq. The percentage of whites who decided to "support the troops" was significantly higher.

The number of blacks who support the war in Afghanistan may be a bit higher now that Obama is in office. But it's still far below that of blacks.

That's a very lasting contribution of the Civil Rights movement. Remember, whites became anti-war in the 1960s at least partly because of their participation in the Civil Rights movement.

And before the Civil Rights movement, blacks saw the US military in the light of Grants suppression of the KKK in the 19th Century and Truman's desegregation of the military. They tended to be pro-military. Martin Luther King's Riverside speech did a lot to change that.

Anonymous said...

Take a look at the percentage of Blacks vs. the same for Whites who choose the military as an option after their federally mandated public education.

The point is that poor whites choose the military in a higher percentage than poor blacks.

Ending the war in Iraq would save the lives of a lot of Middle Easterners, a few working class white Americans and an even fewer working class black Americans.

Militarism hurts working class blacks because it diverts tax money from domestic social programs to the military.

Since Rand Paul would do away with almost all domestic social programs, the idea that he would be better for black people than any liberal Democrat is simply absurd.

As for his ending the prison industrial complex, that's just as silly. "Libertarians" are consisently in favor of an "enforcement only" approach to immigration law and for gutting the public school system.

They may pay some lip service to ending the war on drugs, but in reality their right wing Republican base and their paymasters at Freedom Works would allow them to do no such thing.

Anonymous said...

The point is: What raised the stink in this little tête à tête was a red herring served up by the status quo.

Nah. Maddow was right and IOZ was just being a contrarian.

Paul is just the bleeding edge of the Tea Party movement, which has, as its very core idea, that blacks suck down tax money from "hard working white people" and that gutting public schools and other social programs would allow the "market to take its course".

It's already going on in most of the country (eg New Jersey) where Tea Party style Republicans control the state government.

Anonymous said...

Why can't we BOTH end the drug war AND pay lip service to the Civil Rights office at the DOJ?

Also, why won't black people care only about the issues we think they should care about and in the ways we prescribe for them?

IOZ said...

I like that some of our new and very perceptive visitors read this as a full-throated defense of Rand Paul.

Anonymous said...

I like that some of our new and very perceptive visitors read this as a full-throated defense of Rand Paul.

I don't see that.

I see you being criticized as being too naively contrarian to realize that, Democratic party stooge or no, Maddow is still performing an important service teasing Paul's views about the Civil Rights Act out into the open.

Just because the Democrats are a corporate party and because their supporters in the media like Maddow spend a bit less time talking about miltiarism and the prison industrial complex, doesn't mean they're wrong on EVERYTHING.

I also think that perhaps you hit on an issue where the Boomers aren't quite willing to go along with the usual PUMA freakout about the Obama administration. After all, white Boomers see themselvs at the core of the civil rights movement and will probably defend its legacy, even if it means swallowing the usual "oh these Gen X bastards" bile against Obama.

Christopher M. said...

Gosh, if only black people weren't an urban myth, we could ask some of them to comment on this here fascinating abstract political discussion of ours.

Christopher M. said...

And also, I'm going to say right now that the Civil Rights Act was useless, and helped no black people at all whatsoever, on the basis that it failed to establish a post-racial utopia where all of us live immortal lives in splendor powered only by sunlight and unicorn turds.

Anonymous said...

@Anony 7:13 AM

Give me an EFFFIN' break. It's not like Rand was stumping against the CRA. He was about it by the newspaper editorial board days before the primary. Maddow asks him about it the day after he wins the primary. She is not providing a public service. She is playing partisan politics, however. Too bad for the Dems that she played her cards too early.

IOZ said...

An Important Service... Lolz. Who do not have the means for... the means for... please don't touch that.

Mr.Fundamental said...

He helps administer the charities now, and I give him a reasonable allowance. He has no money of his own. I know how he likes to present himself; Father's weakness is vanity. Hence the slut.

Montag said...

pretending to be a fucking millionaire!

IOZ said...

Different mothers, huh? So . . . racially he's pretty cool?

b-psycho said...

Chris M: You have at least one black in this discussion long as I'm in it.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:10 here.
“(though you can also just lift from the Wiki page as Anon 6:10 does).” la Rana
Well, here’s the thing la Rana, I’m in my 50’s and have spent my entire adult life studying 20th century American history to the tune of a couple degrees and a career in the field of public history so although I can’t really claim to have written that post all by my lonesome I didn’t consult Wikipedia. Are there stock phrases running around in my head? Of course. Thirty five years of reading about a topic will do that. Hard as this may be for you to believe, the language I used was something any student of 20th century American history has probably said while sleep talking. A generic one sentence rundown of the law. Of course your knowing what Wikipedia had to say about the topic does suggest one of us had to look it up…..
As far as your changing teams analogy is concerned, deep as I find it I do wanna ask a question: “are you fuckin’ kiddin me?” First, you conveniently forget to mention anything about voting rights. Before the CRA of 64 a significant percentage of blacks were legally barred from voting. The Act expressly aimed to change that. After the CRA of 64 the percentage of blacks legally barred from voting plummeted. Success!
As for segregation vs. integration the proponents of the Act seem to have avoided making it the Mandatory Integration Act of 1964. Now admittedly I can’t check this on Wikipedia so perhaps I’m wrong, but I believe in taking people at their word when their actions are wholly consistent with their words. Thus, when people saying they intend to end legally mandated segregation draft a bill which outlaws legally mandated segregation I take that to mean their intent was to outlaw legally mandated segregation.
Of course you, being the Officially Designated Spokesman for the Civil Rights Movement may be able to tell me what they actually meant. I remain all a-tingle, anxiously awaiting your insights.

IOZ said...

Hahahaha. Shoter 10:42: Ja, ich bin expert.

Joe said...

"It's not that blacks wanted to go to Cracker Al's Diner..."

Great point. Discrimination of this kind is only a problem if there aren't any other places to go. Yes, racial discrimination is stupid and morally repugnant, but a policy of forced integration ain't going to fix that. A few people have mentioned integrating the school system. I'm pretty sure that hasn't been a smashing success either.

"nihilistic hopelessness"

You're not equating a healthy disdain for ruling-class-approved channels of social change with complete apathy, are you? See Rad Geek's comment on the sit-ins.

Christopher M. said...

You know what, I'm sick to fucking death of listening to whiny, overprivileged white men tell me what is and isn't good for black people. So far in this thread we've seen IOZ base the bulk of a post on an outright historical falsehood, followed by continued lame fartings in the direction of "the Civil Rights Act didn't end racism in America, so therefore it was worthless," while straining to ignore anything approaching the actual lives of non-white people in America and how they've changed over the last fifty years. Get your fucking head out of your ass.

Anonymous said...

IOZ: an expert? Nah, I didn’t claim that. What I copped to was knowing enough about a landmark piece of legislation to be able to throw a stock phrase out in my sleep. Not exactly a proclamation of genius. Nice try though.

Anonymous said...

IOZ: an expert? Nah, I didn’t claim that. What I copped to was knowing enough about a landmark piece of legislation to be able to throw a stock phrase out in my sleep. Not exactly a proclamation of genius. Nice try though.

Jack Crow said...

davidly ftw

Mr.Fundamental said...

um, the drug war? were you listening to the dude's story, Christopher M.? we do tend to come across as fairly callous here, but it's all in good fun. please don't try so hard to be the actual entertainment, it's not very becoming. let's put it this way: if I were elected today, I would end the drug war and free everyone imprisoned under drug laws. let's see how that stance takes out there in Americaland, how that polls or whatever, in the sand filled bathing suit that is America, and then hopefully you will come to understand what it is we are doing here on this blog, and how important it is. and yes, proud we are of all of us.

Joe said...

I'm all for letting black people decide (all people, actually) what's best for them, instead of having a bunch of millionaire politicians (overprivileged white guys, for the most part, eh?) decide for them. Do you really think these fuckers care about anybody but themselves? They sprinkle a few crumbs off the table to the underclass and go for a ride on their yachts.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Oh this one sure does ferret the closet pwogs among IOZ's regular readers.

Bueno, IOZ.

My thoughts:

1) Segregation is fiscal. It is about keeping the poor as poor. There is a synchronicity between black skin and poverty that causes people to mistake segregating the poor from un-poor as a purely racial thing. I notice this where I live, a town that has maybe 3-5% nonwhite but a very distinct socioeconomic segregation, between the yupsters and proto-"professionals" and the rest of us dirt-eaters. Among the rest of us dirt-eaters is yet another divide, between the "proper home" dwellers and the ramshackle makeshift shacks and the trailers that serve as homes for many of this town's poor. That most of us underclass are white -- well, there's a problem right there that you Liberal slash Progressive people might want to pay some attention toward, if you have any to spare after worshiping the 1965 Civil Rights Act.

2) The 1965 Civil Rights Act isn't what created racial equality in America. What creates racial equality is a shift in attitudes. The legislation serves as a Hood Ornament on the Classy Car driven by Our Democratic Saviors. Metaphorically speaking it is similar to putting Barack Obama in charge of the American Imperial Project to make it seem as though we've transcended racial barriers and inequities. Well, I guess we have. Condi Rice and Colin Powell sucked power's cock as well as Prescott Bush did.

Anonymous said...

ioz,
first the civil rights act, next you're probably gonna say something crazy like "our role world war II was an immense crime."

fuckin nihilists. fuck me.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

It's already going on in most of the country (eg New Jersey) where Tea Party style Republicans control the state government.

Hilariously mistaken.

No "tea party" people have power anywhere except in your mind, psycho-boy!

Anonymous said...

"They sprinkle a few crumbs off the table to the underclass and go for a ride on their yachts."

you're right! that's totally how power works! it's all about yachts and crumbs.

goddamn moron.

Anonymous said...

You're not equating a healthy disdain for ruling-class-approved channels of social change with complete apathy, are you?

Nope but hopelessness was probably the wrong word for what I was trying to describe. I am happy to rephrase and say that the 'healthy disdain for ruling-class-approved channels of social change' around these parts is unbecomingly at odds with the notion that the ruling-class-approved Rand Paul will have any impact on the drug war.

I am noticing this weird contrarian tendency among American anarchists and also aging leftists like Alex Cockburn to see corn in liberterian turds.

Mr.Fundamental said...

lulz.

Like I said, Paul le jeune seems like some kind of retarded android leftover from the back lot of some unfilmed Star Trek franchise. He manages to cough out one interesting point, which must have been accidental, because he promptly manages to forget to follow up on it. He says, Hey, we've had a lot of re-segregation.

OH NOES THEY'VE GOT US DEAD TO RIGHTS ON THIS FELLOW. CIRCLE THE WAGONS MONSIEUR!

Anonymous said...

Oh this one sure does ferret the closet pwogs among IOZ's regular readers.

Oh what bullshit. Acknowledging that the government, yielding to pressures from a movement made up mostly of black folks and communists, actually did something right does not make you a closet PWOG.

It does seem, however, that Rand Paul has a way of ferreting out fake anarchists.

There is a synchronicity between black skin and poverty that causes people to mistake segregating the poor from un-poor as a purely racial thing.

This is true in part, but not entirely. It certainly does not account for the most radical segregation of all, which is the herding of black males into prisons.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

12:59 Anonymous: straw-man creation and destruction FOR THE WIN!

"kudos," as you Pwogs like to say.

Joe said...

Those are figurative yachts and crumbs I was talking about. I'd say power works by having one very small group of people control another much larger group of people. Poor people aren't going to get shit from the political system unless it's seen as somehow necessary by those in power.

Anon@12:47: Agreed about Paul.

Oxtrot: Power has nothing to do with Hood Ornaments. You dummy!

Anonymous said...

"kudos," as you Pwogs like to say.

Oh touche you clever boy. You've sussed me out but GOOD.

CF, I know you're not stupid, but your adolescent interest in being part of a cool kids clique sure makes you look like a dumbass most of the time.

IOZ said...

Someone's about to put their eye out.

Demize! said...

I really just came here to make fun of Rachel Maddow. C'mon, a tuning fork, a fucking tuning fork. Anybody?

LP Steve said...

There was your mistake, Demize. You come here for:
1. "Anarchist" makes contrarian statement.
2. Readers join the argument, pin the anarchist to the wall.
3. Anarchist's Defeatist buddies rush to the defense.
4. Readers breach the ramparts, showing they know more about the subject than anarchist and defeatists.
5. Anarchist and defeatists respond with sneers, farting noises and Lebowski-isms.
Rinse. Repeat. Fun!

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Nonny @ 1:20 pm, your projection (ref. "cool kids fetish") reveals a psychological self-awareness depth of a sunshower sidewalk puddle. Next time try posting without looking the mirror, bro-heem.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

LP Steve --

Point (4) in your list has yet to be shown, but it's a nice fantasy that you can take out and rub like the Genie's lamp, hoping for some metaphysical ejaculate. Good job, Onan!

Anonymous said...

"Those are figurative yachts and crumbs I was talking about. I'd say power works by having one very small group of people control another much larger group of people. Poor people aren't going to get shit from the political system unless it's seen as somehow necessary by those in power."

you're an idiot

Lunch said...

Did IOZ descend from his great aunt Zelda? Good trick.

Joe said...

Anon@12:44,

I may be an idiot and a moron. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how power works then. Enlighten me, please.

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