Thursday, July 29, 2010

The Iron Triangle



Great-Aunt Mary used to play her numbers every week. This was in those halcyon days before powerballs and hundred-bajillion dollar jackpots, when sometime during the evening news they'd cut to a goofy studio with a bell-jar air-blower contraption, a lot of ping-pong balls bouncing around wildly, and a great theme song (see it here), to do the lottery drawing and then the "Big 4". Anyway, one of my uncles once suggested to her that she'd increase her chances by buying more than one ticket. So she did. The next week, she bought twenty. All with the same number.

Woody Mattchuck© is now on the cusp of embracing the Albert Speer model of economic development. Charlie Davis politely--too politely, if you ask me--points this out to the little sociopath, who swiftly twatted back, pulling the liberal's most potent trump, The Krug Man, as in: even Paul Krugman agrees that war spending can have a stimulative effect. (Davis notes that Nobel Paul's post doesn't support Yggie quite so much as Yggie thinks.)

Now far be it from me to question the collective wisdom of the Times' hiring department and the Norse Dynamite Commission, but any case that war spending is universally rather than very particularly and very occasionally stimulative is easily falsifiable and demonstrably untrue. Modern warfare tends to impoverish nations, even the victors, and the example of the United States after World War II is a glaring historical outlier, not a repeatable model. (That war destroyed all of the competing industrial economies; the United States acquired a set of tributary European vassal states; the only potential competitor, the USSR, was set back two generations by its catastrophically Pyrrhic victory; etc.) But we hardly need turn to history, to which Yggie is in general woefully, willfully blind. Present circumstances thoroughly debunk the claim. In the past decade, the United States has spent roughly one trillion dollars--$1,000,000,000,000, boys and girls--on war. Please show me the accrued economic benefit of that spending. Oh, you can't? What's that you say? You say that this spending has taken place concurrently with the greatest economic decline since the Great Depression? Why, that's impossible! That would mean that . . . oh, my. Perhaps "reality" doesn't quite have that liberal bias after all.

(By the way, economics proposes itself as a science. It is really a collection of nostrums wrapped in an Excel worksheet and then hazed about with a white smoke of academized jargon to give it the appearance of a mystery cult. Economic illiteracy--what Yglesias accuses Davis of--sounds like an insult, but it's really like accusing someone of Klingon illiteracy. In certain circumstances you might regret not speaking a made-up language, but as a general life condition, you're probably better off.)

Anyway, Yglesias doesn't even understand the Keynsianism for which he claims to speak. He certainly doesn't understand the multiplier effect. Keynes never proposed that spending was universally stimulative nor yet that the heedless outlay of public funds would necessarily catalyze the private economy. He was a product of an industrial age, and he argued that the government could spend money in such a way as to stimulate production; that this would stimulate the growth of industry; that the growth of industry would drive employment; that the growth of employment and wages would expand consumption; that employment and consumption would drive more production and expansion; and so on. But whatever you think of the merits of this argument in an industrial economy is irrelevant, because where spending is unrelated to productivity, productivity is untethered from production, and production is unmoored from employment, there is no multiplier. There is just worthless money printed on one end, and a dead Afghan on the other.

92 comments:

Matthew Yglesias said...

I'm not really sure why you find me so outrageous. Like you, I want fewer troops in Iraq, fewer troops in Afghanistan, less defense spending, and a less aggressive overall American foreign policy. Why not complain about the people who want the reverse?

Charles Davis said...

This is going to get interesting.

Gridlock said...

Heh, 'fewer'

Mr.Fundamental said...

score!

let the party begin

Mr.Fundamental said...

TELL HIM YOUR DEMANDS MONSIEUR! LET HIM KNOW WHAT YOU WANT

The Medium Lobster said...

I'll tell you exactly why we find you so "outrageous," Matty: because as soon as it became clear that management of multiple, ongoing wars was passing from Republican to Democratic hands, you passed from an outspoken and repeated preference for withdrawal to murmured deference to pained hairsplitting to blithe insouciance to outright sociopathy; because where you once maintained that George Bush was a war criminal, you now maintain that present war crimes are necessary to boost our GDP; because you are an empty, soulless, amoral hack, whose sole function appears to be to spread a thin veneer of managerial competence over a massive, world-historical, imperial clusterfuck which has already consumed countless lives.

IOZ said...

You said it, Gridlock.

Don't worry, Matt. I don't find you outrageous. I find you exemplary. You're just a pedagogical tool.

mp said...

We're talking about the climax or conclusion of Matty's post on "Priorities," where he makes his big point, right? The priority for him is to stimulate the economy by killing people. Um, that's not my goal.

El Serracho! said...

i can't decide if it's the sincerity or the willful ignorance that i find more appalling

IOZ said...

Sincignorance.

frijoles junior said...

Well said, Lobster.

War crimes are war crimes, even if slightly smaller in scope. Not that it is entirely clear that a slight reduction in the scope of our collective guilt is even on the table for our current regime.

So really, anything short of a total tear down of the political class and all its works is just morally inexcusable.

stras said...

Priorities, people! I bet I can get the Dow Jones up a point if I bomb this here village in Yemen.

Montag said...

[Gridlock notes the glaring, and Medium Lobster has prolly already won the thread...]

what's the "reverse" of hundreds of thousands of troops, (albeit fewer than there are now!) scattered across the globe?

is it a navy that never ventures further than 200 miles from our coast, an air force limited to within 500 miles, and ground troops that never leave our borders? because-- wait-- what?

BUT, THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS!!!

lost my train of thought here.

Frederick said...

That's the choice, Serrach, sincerity and willful ignorance on one hand, or hypocrisy and malice on the other. Make a choice, either way you loose. Either way you end up serving the same ends. Intentions, lol....

Is not C.S. Lewis book.

P.S. Hey, you got anymore good D.R.I. videos?

IOZ said...

While I agree with you, frijoles, I can't let your comment pass without noting that the war crimes are equal if not larger in scope.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about our host, but aside from his general clueless douchery I find Yggles outrageous because he not only knows NOTHING about economics but betrayed no interest in the subject whatsoever until high finance exploded, and now postures as an expert and dispenses admonitory lectures to the heads of central banks, actual economists, etc.

Justin said...

I disagree that this will get interesting, if Yglesias was capable of writing that without thinking, as soon as it came off the keyboard, "Wait - as a Keynesian I support occupying Afghanistan? Sometimes I think crazy things..." and deleting it, then it might be interesting. But that it even occurred to him, and he still doesn't get the point and thinks because it is factually true (dubious) that it is appropriate to throw into the discussion, shows a less than mediocre mind that is incapable of digesting any of these criticisms in a meaningful way.

To put it another way, Yglesias appears to have accumulated a very superficial understanding of things, things like Keynesian economics. He has a few scripts in his head, a couple of heuristics, and when he encounters a discussion that triggers one of those scripts, his reflex is triggered. I don't think he is capable of reflecting on them, or reconsidering his assumptions (see Ioz's glaringly obvious point about war spending in the past decade), and just tosses it out there.

Ethan said...

Well, even this war is benefiting the economy, if you define "the economy" as "the personal fortunes of the extremely extremely wealthy." And actually I'm not sure what other definition that word has.

frijoles junior said...

No argument here, IOZ.

My choice of words was more an amplification of Gridlock's much pithier formulation, granting Matt's desire to see a slight reduction in scope as a point not to be contended as it fails to make a qualitiative difference.

But our dear emperor has been fairly up-front about kicking things up a notch, so I don't see how anyone who has been paying attention would fail to appreciate that we've made things worse, rather than better, since the reign of Bush the Lesser.

Anonymous said...

I'd say the only way US was not empoverished by WWII is "by comparison".

Capt'n Obvious

Mr.Fundamental said...

To put it another way, Yglesias appears to have accumulated a very superficial understanding of things, things like Keynesian economics. He has a few scripts in his head, a couple of heuristics, and when he encounters a discussion that triggers one of those scripts, his reflex is triggered. I don't think he is capable of reflecting on them, or reconsidering his assumptions (see Ioz's glaringly obvious point about war spending in the past decade), and just tosses it out there.

HEY WAIT A MINNIT! EVERY INTERNET TROLL EVER FROM EVER. that's my schitck, too.

I suppose the only trouble is, he makes a living from it. does he?

El Serracho! said...

BE NICE MR. FUN! HE'S A RESPECTED (snort..giggle)BLOGGER!

la Rana said...

IZ JUS BABY EATIN' CONTEST, GEEZ, IZ ECONOMIC ILLITERACY NECESSARY FER GOOD NESS??

Anonymous said...

But matt's a good progressive, so his ends just whatever means of jackassery.

Its too bad a progressive did not offer the arizona immigration law, bc then matt could support it and the stimulative effect of having to hire more cops to enforce the law!

Anonymous said...

I am somewhat surprised to notice how many people (e.g. da esteemt cited blogger) would benefit from a thorough reading of "A Modest Proposal".

Hmmm. Massa Swift must've really hit the nail on the head on that one.

Capt'n Obvious

Mr.Fundamental said...

LET THEM EAT BABIES

ts said...

Economics doesn't have the appearance of a mystery cult. It is a mystery cult. What other science completely separates itself from the others and bases its entire "science" on an ad hoc theory of equilibrium, a thing which can never be proven to exist?

Anonymous said...

Born outside the anglosphere, I never thought much of Swift.

Only to discover, as US serf, how on the point he is on the inner inanity of the WASP "this is for your own good and you should like it, you little ungrateful rascal" mental paradigm.

Hmmmm

Capt'n Obvious
/endtroll

Jonathan Swift said...

You've turned my modest proposal into a punchline...

ran said...

has brave Sir Matt bravely run away after getting his ample ass handed to him?

Anonymous said...

War doesn't have a stimulative effect? Sure it does!

Just take a look at this unemployment map of Georgia:

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/06/46/32/image_8532466.jpg

Hmmm... I wonder what is so special about most of those counties with low unemployment numbers.

Surprise! Military bases! People in those counties have felt stimulated for decades. Now as for those other counties....

Anonymous said...

Yggles is full of shit unless he donates a bunch of money to the department of defense.

Jack Crow said...

Delightful take downs. Yggie no come back.

Solar Hero said...

I wouldn't miss this intellectual purge for a million!

Although it saddens me that the term "intellectual" applies to Ygg at all!

Delegitimization, starting with folks like Yggs, spreading to non-profits and universities, and finally turning the whole U.S. gubermint-thing into a Soviet-era delegitimized mess.

Then we can party.

zencomix said...

There are 52 comments over at his post, but Matt didn't respond to a single comment . But an hour after this post goes up, Matt's the first commenter. Either it's not really Matt and somebody is posing as him to liven up the thread, or Matt has a serious crush on IOZ!

LP Steve said...

Matt did the same thing a while back over at Dennis The Peasant's blog. I just think the boy has rabbit ears.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

I'm not really sure why you find me so outrageous. Like you, I want fewer troops in Iraq, fewer troops in Afghanistan, less defense spending, and a less aggressive overall American foreign policy. Why not complain about the people who want the reverse?

Jesus fucking popsicle Christ on a slab of balsa.

Hey fatboy,

the goal is NO TROOPS in those place, NO WAR in those places, NO COLD WAR in those places.

Go dust your Crimson Diploma, you fucking beached whale.

Anonymous said...

Even the rodeo clowns at Sadly, No! have started sniping at Yggie lately.

Professor Coldheart said...

But an hour after this post goes up, Matt's the first commenter.

As an amateur bloggist myself, it's possible that Matthew saw the pingback to his post (with the link text "Albert Speer model of economic development") and clicked through, hoping to be educated on who Albert Speer is. Instead, THIS fresh hell!

Anonymous said...

Go easy on the poor kid. He did, after all, go to Harvard. That puts him at a severe mental handicap.

Michael Dawson said...

Medium Lobster rings this bell.

Meanwhile, the point about the diminished stimulative impact of military spending in a hollowed, offshored society is valid, but hardly sufficient to disprove the claim in question.

There is still some manufacturing here, and service-provision is also a real thing. Somebody cooking my dinner or dry-cleaning my shirts is as much of a real improvement in my world as somebody stamping out the widgets that go into the hamburger grill or the dry-cleaning gizmos.

Corporate capitalism requires huge and increasing public expenditures to compensate for its progressive downsizing and cheapening of its own labor costs, to stave off Great Depression. Military spending is a heavily elite-favored form for such public spending, since it does not compete with existing "markets" and also enables imperial threats and wars to sustain the status quo.

The reason military spending broke the USSR and still boosts the USA lies in the differing political economies of the two places. Our system works better when the Pentagon budget increases.

War remains very good for business.

So, horrible and "fewer troops" as he is, score one for Yggie here.

Anarchists don't understand this topic.

IOZ said...

Corporate capitalism requires huge and increasing public expenditures to compensate for its progressive downsizing and cheapening of its own labor costs, to stave off Great Depression.

There are some people whose infelicity makes them seem less intelligent than they really are. Then there is Michael Dawson.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Anarchists don't understand this topic.

I'd like to restate that to be more accurate, if I could, Dawson.

Economists care only about money moving around, and pretend to not see people dying, injured, displaced as long as the money is moving around.

I don't think anyone misses the point that money is changing hands and materiel is being made, sold at high profit, and used for murder of other humans.

I don't think anyone misses the point that wars are "good business" -- if we only ignore what fallout results from that "business".

Probably Yggie won't mind if I can find a way to make money off The Death of Matt Yglesias... right? I mean, the greenback made off the death of the humpback, that's a good thing... right?

demize! said...

Because you're a twat should be more than adequate.

Mr.Fundamental said...

the perfect YggieDawson storm: American Troops are here to provide you with the much lauded service of removing the life from your physical form. the First World's finest product! it all makes sense now.

here, I have some musket repellent to sell you. pshhhh

IOZ said...

We're just trying to help them reach their Operating Thetan level.

Mr.Fundamental said...

how would you like your chest pressed? we also do steaming. all environmentally friendly, of course. none of that nasty perchloroethylene. and Americans, as investors, can reap the rewards from the value added death service we provide, so you can go about your death in a more friendly and socially responsible manner. organic even! a US Certified Organic Death. only the best for our favorite targets!

Professor Coldheart said...

Corporate capitalism requires huge and increasing public expenditures to compensate for its progressive downsizing and cheapening of its own labor costs, to stave off Great Depression.

... hmm. Yes, that ... that certainly works. But what if I put this one over here ... and move these back here ... then I get:

"An aggressive military republic requires huge corporations to supply it with materiel, as well as a well-financed and well-regarded intellectual class to justify its adventures overseas."

Why, it's a PushMi-PullYu!

Justin said...

I'll add another, I forget. How many NSLs do the FBI and other federal agencies already send out every year? 30,000? 50,000? What's it up to now? Whatever it is, I guess it's still not enough. That business of getting approval from a judge is just so annoying, after all.

You know, if I'd wanted Dick Cheney as president I would have just voted for him.

augustus818 said...

I keep trying to tell Matthew "We can do gooder" Ygelsias to remember to wear his helmet when he goes to school. Maybe then he could keep some of his brain cells warm enough to keep from saying something stupid. But the boy never listens. Oh well, he's special anyways ...

Enron said...

"The reason military spending broke the USSR and still boosts the USA lies in the differing political economies of the two places. Our system works better when the Pentagon budget increases." Funny, the Agency couldn't foresee the fall of the Soviet Union either.

thincat said...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the whole "US broke the Soviet economy through massive weapons spending" thing a Moonie rewrite of history?

Shlomo McCracken said...

I'm not really sure why you find me so outrageous. Like you, I want fewer troops in Iraq, fewer troops in Afghanistan, less defense spending, and a less aggressive overall American foreign policy. Why not complain about the people who want the reverse?

From a Keynesian standpoint, I believe that with the economy depressed it’s better to spend the money in Afghanistan than not to spend it.

What need we any further witnesses?

le sans-culottes said...

So Lulzy.

Yggie gets his ass handed to him and then tries to walk back his position today in a newer post on his ThinkPwog blog.

"And that makes sense. After all “invade and conquer southern and eastern Afghanistan” is neither a practical nor a cost-effective means of enhancing the well-being of the world’s women. You go to war for reasons of national security. Those reasons either stand up to scrutiny or they don’t." (emphasis added)

Literally yesterday, war was good cuz it created demand, today war can only be waged for reasons of national security. What a transparently stupid douchebag.

El Serracho! said...

i'm not really sure why you find him so outrageous, le sans

TGGP said...

What Keynes himself thought is of course quite different from modern neo/New Keynesianism. He opposed countercyclical policy and supported sticky wages rather than blaming them for unemployment.

Your post-hoc argument against the beneficial effects of war would also apply to the stimulus/recovery/reinvestment act. So I imagine it won't fly with Yglesias.

I've heard some different theories about German military "Keynesianism". One is that unemployment remained high because wages were kept down, and measuring by civilian consumption their economy wasn't so hot. Another is that (during the war years) they depended to a significant extent on plunder. Higgs thinks the former argument also applies to the U.S during WW2: because of rationing the usual GDP data can't really be compared to other times. It does give Keynesians an out for explaining the lack of a bust when wartime spending ended: people had been saving up but unable to consume and so the post-war prosperity was temporally borrowed from the years of rationing.

Anonymous said...

TGGP

I should think that the government buying everything the economy was capable of producing at the time kept things humming 1942-1945. The peanut gallery here has weighed in as to whether this is sustainable or desirable.

After the war, the private sector went on a buying binge.

This is not rocket science. It's economics!

Rojo said...

Wow, is there any way to confirm that is Yglesias up at the top of the comments thread? Because if it is, it is highly revealing and rather unflattering.

He responds to IOZ's post by failing to address the explicit economic fallacies of his arguments (not to mention the implicit moral criticisms embodied in calling it the "Albert Speer model") by whining that he wants troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, military spending, and an aggressive foreign policy. Just, as Gridlock pithily pointed out upthread, a bit less.

Yglesias, if that's you, you did yourself no favors here.

Anonymous said...

Who should be the next pwog pooh-bah for IOZ to harass in hopes of provoking a direct response? I vote for Ezra Klein.

Leonard said...

Ssssh! Be vewwy, vewwy, qwiet! IOZ's hunting wabbits! Ahhuhuhuhuh!

Montag said...

all the baby eating talk reminds me it's Foodie Friday. first things first. then, maybe criticize Naomi Klein for something Ezra Klein said.

Charles Davis said...

Who should be the next pwog pooh-bah for IOZ to harass in hopes of provoking a direct response? I vote for Ezra Klein.

Seconded.

J said...

Thirded.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Make it a fourth.

Montag, I can give you a Naomi Klein-bashing fix right here:

http://progrepnow.blogspot.com/2010/01/amber-interviews-naomi-klein.html

Mr.Fundamental said...

we get better threads when he suggests that Rand Paul might just have a single point, or Obama's policies vary little from WBush's, or that the Civil Right Legislation has been kinda useless because - hey look at all the black dudes we have imprisoned since its inception! - or that Hillary Clinton should be raped by a deinonychus talon in the ass! OR MAYBE WE SHOULD ALL DRIVE SLOW IN THE FAST LANE

he has to tread very lightly around these parts.

Michael J. Smith said...

"Norse Dynamite Commission"

I laughed so hard at this I think I may have hurt myself.

Inkberrow said...

ts---

Mystery cults supposedly possess up front and all along a font of discrete wisdom, if for the understanding of initiates only, to be applied to emerging events. This why we should fear Jesuits and the Rosicrucians and men like Julian Assange and Elon Musk.

Economics, on the other hand, like psychology, phrenology, and astrology, codifies and catalogues events, symptoms and trends, from which observations practitioners claim to deduce predictive rules. The most popular readers of chicken entrails hence carve out part of the world in their own image.

Mr.Fundamental said...

oh I get it now. Inky is an anarchist in the sense that laws, customs and decor (possibly even morality) and such should not interfere and get in the way of the force that typically backs such things up. capice, man. capice.

Michael Dawson said...

Keynes said paying people to go bury bottle in the woods and more people to go find them would be a preferable option vis-a-vis laissez-faire do-nothing dogma, which continues to rule the roost. Obama just came out and said his own joke "education" policy is the #1 economic issue.

In any event, Prof Coldheart, any stoned sophomore can flip explanations. Do you have any sense that you're trying to argue about a world that's real, and which has a real history? The Pentagon called corporations into existence? When was that?

Jesus Palomino! What a fucking pack of dolts we have on the "left."

Fzitz said...

laissez-faire continues to rule the roost? funny stuff. Just how much confiscatory and regulatory behavior would you like the government to engage in, before it's considered hands on? I know, rich people exist, que horror. But do you have any idea what it takes to start and run a business, solely from the angle of jumping through all the non-market hoops? There may exist a place where the government does not regularly and massively interfere in the economy, but it ain't here.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Dawson: "I KNOW ECONOMICS!"

reader: "Yeah, that and a dollar will get you a candy bar."

stras said...

Not actually sure why people here pile on Dawson so much, since he usually seems to have a point whenever he bothers to pop up. Are people confusing the name "Michael Dawson" with "Michael Ryerson" (hey, shades of Naomigate!) or is there just a knee-jerk hatred of Marxists here?

Anonymous said...

If y'all had ever bothered to read your Toynbee, there would be less of these fruitless contretemps.

Anonymous said...

@anon 2:05 - mildly curious whether you're implying that Harvard is much worse than say Dartmouth Columbia Stanford etc or just using it as a trademark for "elite undergraduate education." In my experience the level of privilege and arrogance is pretty much similar although the truth is that what you say doesn't apply to graduate students in most disciplines although people get just as mad at them.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

stras,

Dawson and I have been trading jabs and jibes for a while. My personal knee-jerk reflexive hatred is toward the economist's tendency to ignore those pesky externalities like human life and limb, human displacement, human social destruction. Sadly, "economics" would rather just look at those moving money numbers and call it a day.

I wouldn't exactly call it "making a valid point" when someone says a nation's spending on materiel is a stimulus. So what, the money gets pumped around in the system. Who gets the benefits? A tiny fraction of well-connected, and already-well-heeled people who are engaged in the materiel manufacture and supply fields.

Ironically, this "marxist" view is perilously close, in practical effect, to the well-hated trickle-down theories of Reaganomics. But you can't tell a "marxist" that, can you?

stras said...

I wouldn't exactly call it "making a valid point" when someone says a nation's spending on materiel is a stimulus. So what, the money gets pumped around in the system. Who gets the benefits? A tiny fraction of well-connected, and already-well-heeled people who are engaged in the materiel manufacture and supply fields.

But this is precisely the point. If war spending acts as a stimulus - even, no, especially, if it only benefits a well-heeled elite, the same well-heeled elite which ultimately buys and sells the politicians who launch this country into war in the first place - then this provides us with an explanation for why the warmongers monger war in the first place. Dawson isn't holding up a war stimulus as an excuse for America's endless wars; he's holding it up as a motive.

Now, the anarchist's usual explanation is that institutions exist to perpetuate themselves - that the Pentagon wages war because the existence of perpetual war justifies the existence of the Pentagon. And sure, I buy that. But to claim that this is all the war machine does is ridiculous, when it's set up, like every part of our bureaucracy, to bleed as much money from as many sources as possible and funnel that money to wealthy backers. To deny that there's an economic benefit to war is ludicrous; all the people who matter have been profiting from this bloodbath since before the first bombs started dropping.

Professor Coldheart said...

In any event, Prof Coldheart, any stoned sophomore can flip explanations. Do you have any sense that you're trying to argue about a world that's real, and which has a real history?

Michael: you're the one who, if I'm reading you right, has been arguing the existence of a Pure State and True before the GREEDY CORPORATIONS fucked it up. I've been saying that such a condition has never existed: that the devotees of power, whether mercantile, ecumenical or federal, have worked hand in hand since the time of Hammurabi. Find me the "real history" that contradicts my assertion.

(I ain't mad; I'm not even pissy. I'm genuinely trying to figure out what your stance is and how it reconciles with the real world)

Enron said...

And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about?

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

stras,

what the fuck?

I didn't say shit about "excuse" versus "motive."

if your point was to be a Dawson-redux, then you had no point.

which makes you, errr... ahhh... dull.

but thanks anyway.

IOZ said...

That private profit is a part of war-making is not in dispute or question. That it functions as a Keynsian economic stimulus is. Those of you who think you're cleverly contradicting the top post by noting that some of the rich fucks get rich from war should probably take a walk, get some fresh air.

girard said...

IOZ --

As you probably know, your post is also being discussed on SMBIVA. I can't speak for anyone else, but I guess I am confused on why war making does not stimulate the economy in the same way other public spending would. Are you disputing Keynes or is your point that Keynes does not apply because of changes in the way goods are produced (robots, off-shore workers) and related things that were not in play when Keynes was doing his math?

girard said...

But this is precisely the point. If war spending acts as a stimulus - even, no, especially, if it only benefits a well-heeled elite, the same well-heeled elite which ultimately buys and sells the politicians who launch this country into war in the first place - then this provides us with an explanation for why the warmongers monger war in the first place. Dawson isn't holding up a war stimulus as an excuse for America's endless wars; he's holding it up as a motive.

This is a misreading of Dawson, I think, and also related posts.

I think Yggy posited that spending on Afghanistan had some economic benefit other than making a lot of rich fucks richer. I think Dawson posited the same thing while repudiating Yggy's willingness to accept war in exchange for this greater good. If wealthy people accumulate more wealth without that wealth moving through the economy to stimulate more production then I don't think that kind of spending is successful from a Keynesian perspective.

I think IOZ and Dawson, and a few others on the SMBIVA site disagree on whether military spending in our age still stimulates the economy in the old-fashion way.

IOZ said...

Girard - what does "stimulate the economy" mean?

Yglesias, for all his sociopathy, above discussed, actually is concerned, in his hazy and half-assed way, with general employment and wages. As was our friend Mr. Keynes. So you get Keynes very telling case: it would be better for the government to bury a bunch of money and let business employ people to dig it up again than to spend no money at all. Note the key phrase - employ people to dig it up again. The increase to the general as opposed to the particular welfare, and the stimulative effect, are distributed through labor and wages. So, au contraire to the smart guys in comments at SMBIVA, this is not at all an example of a government spending heedlessly, but an example of the government spending pointedly, if a little ridiculously.

But this sort of thing has been bowdlerized, and so you get Yglesias arguing that war spending is broadly stimulative even though, obviously, it isn't; by any broad measure, the economy has either stagnated or declined throughout the last round of massive wartime spending.

Dawson and a few others say, "But, aha! It is a stimulus. It's a stimulus for rich-fuck war profiteers." Well, I wholly agree that profit is a motive for war, and that this war has proven profitable for some. But that isn't what Yglesias was talking about when he said that "from a Keynsian standpoint" it is better to spend money killing Afghans than not, nor what I was talking about when I told Yglesias to suck a fat fucking dick and choke on it.

FB said...

IOZ,

I see where you're coming from on this now, and some of my criticisms were off base, but I still think that your position is untenable.

Even if we focus on increased employment as a necessary component of Keynesian stimulus, war spending would have to employ absolutely no Americans for it to not be stimulative. Do you really think that is the case or is even possible?

I agree that it is a poor form of stimulus, but it's pretty much impossible for it to not be stimulative at all.

IOZ said...

Even if we focus on increased employment as a necessary component of Keynesian stimulus, war spending would have to employ absolutely no Americans for it to not be stimulative.

No, that's not right. It would have to at minimum show a net gain in employment--but marginal increases in employment by military contractors, suppliers, etc., are so offset by the general decline in employment rolls that there is no stimulative effect . . . I mean, I suppose we could concede that it contributed to all those "saved" jobs The Obama is always talking about. I'm not even certain you can say that military-related employment outside of perhaps some minor growth of the services themselves is in evidence anyway. So, I hold to the point. The wars have not been stimulative in any meaningful way within the general economy.

mistah charley, ph.d. said...

The Medium Lobster's views are so insightful, in a panoramic and transhistorical way, that he ought to get his own website.

On the other hand, Mr. Yglesias should fire the people who are posting opinions allegedly in his name.

IMHO.

Mr. Shhh said...

Sincignorance.

I am completely unqualified to critique the wordsmithery of The Monsieur, therefore this must be a simple typo.

Sincygnorance, no?

FB said...

I think we're just using different terminology.

". . I mean, I suppose we could concede that it contributed to all those "saved" jobs The Obama is always talking about. "

That's all I really mean. When I'm saying it's stimulative I just mean that it contributes towards employment, even if it is only by a small amount and even if on net employment is still down.

I do actually think that things could have been worse in terms of unemployment after the 2001 recession and the 2008 recession if it weren't for deficit spending, however poorly spent.

Montag said...

an object traveling along an axis that is slowing down, is said to be accelerating (in the negative direction.) and the technical jargon of kinematics is every bit as pertinent as economic hair-splitting to the broader criticism with regard to the cosmic price being owed for snuffing out life half a world away in order to 'save jobs' back home.

let's also not forget--let's not forget, Dude--that keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know, within the city--that isn't legal either.

Kelly Smith said...

Delightful take downs. Yggie no come back.

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