Doping is bullshit. A bullshit category. A bullshit offense. You think that Contador is doing something natural? You think that elite athleticism in the 21st-century is the product of mere aptitude and hard workouts? Dude, an tour cyclist is a machine, a human body broken down and reformed into an engine of motion. The idea that chemical enhancements are somehow categorically distinct from the rest of the training regime, which regulates everything from caloric intake to sleep schedule, is a total fallacy.
And you can spare the concern that the drugs are "unsafe" and might harm an athlete. Becoming an athlete harms an athlete. And I am not just talking about training and competition injuries, which are of course far more prevalent and far more devastating than the side-effects of modern performance-enhancing chemicals. Being a top cyclist, or football player, or whatever, puts a huge strain on the physical body. If an athelete is very lucky, he gets out of it with nothing worse than chronic pain.
Thursday, September 30, 2010
Dopes
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65 comments:
but -- but they CHEATED!!!!!!!
Oscar Goldman knew the score. We have the technology. Bionics, my man... bionics.
Agreed on the general vapors re doping. Not so sure about your "or whatever." It really depends on the sport. Old marathoners by and large just keep on running.
Old marathoners by and large just keep on running.
That's a frighteningly apt example of "survivorship bias" if ever I heard one. Marathoning is crippling.
Yeah, I know a few old marathoners who can barely walk.
Dr. Norm Fost, a medical ethicist at the Univ. of Wisconsin, has written and spoken about this issue extensively, like in this video where he begins "Everyone in this room uses performance-enhancing technology and drugs..."
No more runners with eyeglasses!
-- sglover
Re the marathoning, I suspect we're all speaking anecdotally, so I'm not going to fight about it. I've run some marathons (slowly). It hurts. I was really pointing out that "football, cycling, or whatever" is apples to oranges to... whatever. Joint pain versus jellied brain, you know?
I'm with Nony: they cheated. Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a shit about the rules? MARK IT ZERO!
you're right, but, um, also: fuck Contador.
what about the children?
Throw all the moralizing bullshit aside (which is hard to do, because it's the main impetus behind public anti-doping outrage), and substance regulation is just another rule of the sport, like rules governing bike components or other methods of gaining an "unfair" advantage, all of which I could live with if the cyclists themselves had more of a say in choosing what substances are restricted, and if it were actually possible to consistently enforce substance restriction in the same way other rules are easily enforced (which it evidently is not).
Also, quit testing shit way after the race is over; it doesn't benefit anyone to have a new winner declared months after the fucking race is over with.
"The idea that chemical enhancements are somehow categorically distinct from the rest of the training regime, which regulates everything from caloric intake to sleep schedule, is a total fallacy."
AH but "chemical enhancements" fall into the abyss of "drug" war" politics and policy.
Cycling is NASCAR for the NPR crowd. Who gives a hot fuck what they do?
If the cyclists don't dope, the terrorists will have won.
Given that cycling is the most tedious sport invented since golf, yeah, steroids have never hurt anyone. Have they? I mean, really?
Tommy Simpson says you don't know shit.
The part left out in the great doping controversy is everyone is different when you come to the relatively minor advantage gained by doping at the elite levels of sport. What works for me may or may not work for you. Unfortunately, the world of sport is populated by copycats hoping for the same result as the original success story. The regulators are culpable in any unsafe claims because the bans encourage the pursuit of new ways of doping.
But what about the children?
Capt'n Obvious
Tommy Simpson says you don't know shit.
Not entirely sure that I agree with our esteemed host but I doubt that Schleck or Contador would chase down a handful of meth with slugs of brandy.
Not 'entirely sure' you agree with our esteemed host? well, that pretty much places you firmly on the idiot fringe. 45 years ago they didn't have HGH and hadn't discovered yet how to boost the number of red blood cells to jack up their aerobic capacity. but all spinning aside, it amounts to the same thing. if you agree with our esteemed host, no big deal. if, on the other hand, you think an unnecessarily exploded heart a bad thing, then Tommy Simpson still says this post was patent bs.
The extra four hours of the Ken Burns series on baseball alternated between describing steroids as a horrible stain on the sport, and making you feel that Barry Bonds' decision to use them was almost admirable. Totally schizophrenic, but not bad theater.
I dunno. Ya don' see practitioners o' the Marikin Passtime gettin' hip replacements in dey turdies.
The last fifty of Ben Johnson's blowin' Carl Lewis off the track was a sight to behold, though.
...well, that pretty much places you firmly on the idiot fringe...
Love you too, Michael.
...if, on the other hand, you think an unnecessarily exploded heart a bad thing, then Tommy Simpson still says this post was patent bs...
Ach - don't be silly, of course I do. The point is that not all drugs are any more dangerous than forcing oneself to become clinically underweight and dragging one's pathetic frame around hundreds of miles of course. Daily. So, I wouldn't say I disagree with doping bans, I'd just like to hear the rationale.
Davidly: Lowell's surgery a success
MichaelRyerson: what do i care if some elite athlete wants to risk blowing a heart gasket? as long as it's a voluntary choice on the part of the athlete, it isn't a great moral issue. professional athletes breaking the rules of their sport is not all that compelling really.
Capt'n Obvious: is there an echo in here? (2:44) ;-)
bensix, sorry for the idiot fringe snark BUT if you think anti-doping measures are bullshit (as apparently the host does) then that's where you are. montag, isn't a great moral issue. hahaha, what exactly is a great moral issue?
what exactly is a great moral issue?
fucked if i know. but "they're exploding perfectly good hearts!" isn't one. all the childrens waiting on the heart donor list notwithstanding.
what exactly is a great moral issue?
I dunno, maybe war, murder, rape...
montag, well your first sentence makes sense. I feel bad for you.
I feel bad for you.
lolwhy?
Haha. The plural of anecdote is MEGADEATH!
I'm definitely NOT doing any drugs with Ryerson.
montag, 'fucked if I know' what a great moral issue is. I hope you figure it out. but don't feel too bad, you're in good company around here.
Alright, Montag, point taken - even if that wasn't a hip replacement. The point is, even pitchers, who put their joints through the wringer do so during the game, not as part of their training. Quite the contrary: during the season they rest their arms completely on off days.
Yet it's the fat-ass parade-float sluggers who be juicin'. The only thing their pro-training taxes is their bar tabs.
oh please, "GOOD COMPANY 'ROUND HERE?" appears to me these people do plenty of sound ethical thinking. but the nihilists aren't the issue here.
what the fuck are you talking about?
just joshing ya, Davidly. catchers got it rough though. but hell, i work with CAD, and i have a wrist and an elbow that act up more and more over time. ballplayers mostly retire by my age.
Fuck the children, what about the troops? Cyclists shouldn't be doping because of the troops. End of discussion.
Montag--
Your last raises another amusing point in the original post: if an athlete is lucky, he gets out of it with nothing worse than chronic pain. Why limit that statement to athletes, eh?
Ah, geez. I forgot about the catchers' knees. They should get footstools.
"he"?
montag, 'sound ethical thinking'? you think the top post is an example of 'sound ethical thinking'? holy shit, you're a fucking loon.
haha - BLAWGITY!
Ryerson, you're frickin BORING.
yeah, I see you over there in the corner funda, peeing on your own leg in anticipation. and the all caps is a nice touch, kinda like this word is so fucking important it needs to be shouted. I get it, you have no skills.
yawn.
I said it first.
still don't know what you're on about.
"Doping got the sport through times of no money better than money got the sport through times of no doping." Freewheelin' Franklin
Ryerson, if you want to make an actual argument about the topic at hand, then make a fucking argument. As it is, you're sulking in a corner and randomly flinging around the occasional ad hominem, while avoiding anything approaching the actual topic of the post. If you want us to treat you like a grownup, act like one.
stras, too hard for you to follow and I'm the one acting like a juvenile? I should put it in bullet points for you? becoming an athlete is hard on the body, drugs are hard on the body, ergo they're the same thing and any attempt to regulate drugs is stupid and little more than the non-drug users trying to feel superior. as is frequently the case with our host he becomes enamoured of his sizable talent writing sentences and in order to see more of them writes something that fails on it's face. this is one of those times. capiche'?
Ryerson: again, if you want to make an argument, make a fucking argument. You aren't making an argument, you're repeating the argument in the initial post, and then stomping around, pointing and whining at it. If you believe that any of us should actually give a shit about Athlete X using Controlled Substance Y, make a positive case for that belief. If you don't believe that - or if you aren't willing to back up that belief with a string of coherent sentences - then shut the fuck up.
Now that's what I'd like the UCI to do...
If he was doping, he was breaking the rules, so fuck Contador. This is not Nam, this is bowling. There are rules.
Beyond that, getting Ryerson-style tits aflutter over drug use demonstrates a lack of understanding about cycling in general. The sort of food cyclists eat nowadays is completely alien to what they were eating when Merckx was dominating the field. The pre-race drinks, the gels, the race drinks, the recovery drinks, and all that crap are the products of lab science trying to crank out a performance increase of one-half of one percent. It's all the product of lots of engineering, so bitching about EPO and not GU gel is just a complaint that some substances work too well.
Yeah, blood transfusions are exactly like eating brown rice syrup.
Exactly like it.
Do you have an argument somewhere in there, CFO? If so, make it. Demonstrate that injecting EPO is fundamentally different from ingesting caffeine.
demonstrate that it's not.
While your attempted burden-shifting is amusing, Ryerson, you're the one that has yet to rebut IOZ's arguments. If you have a counterargument, make it.
you can't see the fundamental difference between mainlining EPO and having a cup of java? and my asking you to show there's no fundamental difference is burden-shifting? don't fucking make me laugh. what are you(?) 12 years old? and rebut what IOZ's 'arguments'? his preposterous claim that training is hard on the body and drugs are hard on the body and therefore they must be the same thing? that's what you're asking me to rebut? that kind kind of an 'argument' deserves to be laughed off the stage my friend. rebut that.
No. Yes. Okay. (A swarm of bees that have gained consciousness). No. Yes. Yes. Yes. Blawg. Blawg! BLAWGGGG
Haha. "Mainlining." Drugsrbad!
his preposterous claim that training is hard on the body and drugs are hard on the body and therefore they must be the same thing?
haha - WRONG. you limp dildo. you can't even paraphrase well.
you know, they say that an attempt at the hour record will take a year off your life. I wonder what burning through and processing 8-12 thousand calories per day for 3 weeks does to ones vital organs, not to mention riding the requisite 20+ thousand miles per year in order to be fit enough to attend the event. fitness does not mean that you get to live forever; it means you can handle what you are about to do better than most. do you think Danny Chew will make it to a million miles? that'd be rad. pro cyclists don't live very long lives, and that's part of the attraction, if you ask me. but yes, let's quibble over the bright distinction of "natural" manipulation, say riding ones bicycle for 20k miles per year, versus the um, "synthetic" or "artificial" manipulation of reinjecting some old blood, or injecting some HGH or EPO. it's funny, but I bet that there are going to be some idiots that OD, their blood too thick to pump, or whatever. but I bet that all the top guys, the ones with the real talent, are going to be protected, and run a very low risk of such a tragedy. the mythology is what needs exploding. did the drugs kill Pantani or VDB? no, the repercussions and the stigma and the shame led them to their depression, then their respective fates.
it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about, and are not really worth talking to. toodlz, fucktard.
IOZ, thanks for that perfect response, sublime really. how much more silly and insignificant can you become? as for your goofy partner here, do you have a point to make? cut down on the verbiage and make it or in the alternative fuck off.
Ahaha. YEAH WALTER WHAT'S YOUR POINT!?
nope, not as good as ''mainlining''. drugsrbad.' fucking dilettante.
Do you hear me, Lebowski? The bums will always lose!
It's Michael Ryerson about the biennale!
they also mainline vitamins and water, when they need to. you can look it up.
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