Monday, November 15, 2010

Wind-up

Since several commenters seem to be misunderstanding this post, it seems worthwhile to clarify that, of course, human activity alters the natural world in which it is embeded. I am dancing around the terminology deliberately. The language that describes "climate change" is problematic. (Global warming is actually better, if cripplingly overgeneral; it actually describes something that is happening.) It slips very swiftly into a mode of thinking that makes human activity and its resultant effects on environments, both locally and globally, exogenous rather than endemic. There is nature, and there is the environment, and then there are humans, both of and not of nature and the environment, and then there is human activity, by which we mostly mean industry and large-scale agriculture, which are categorically distinct, external agents of harm to non-human nature, which in turn affects the well-being of in-between human creatures. I say this sort of thinking is confused and unnecessarily complex, and more pointedly, I find that it leads to a concomittant error: a meliorist's belief that "climate change" is merely symptomatic of poor public policy choices rather than an ineradicable and inextricable component of "advanced" human civilization. Which obviously it is not. Fossil fuels are bad, though efficient, but can you really blame our clever ape brains? There are now seven-some billion 50-60-kilo bipedal mammals occupying the earth. She's gotta feed the monkey! Didn't that, like, ever occur to you, man?

What I am . . . what is the word? What I am skeptical about is not that billions of mammals can cause harm to themselves and others by burning too much carbon in the troposphere, but rather that there is a technological solution to a natural, if highly exaggerated, problem of population and consumption, short of, say, the engineering of a supervirus that reduces our numbers, uh, significantly. Climate change rhetoric, particularly as a component of Western political liberalism, is misleading not because the global environment (in aggregate) is changing (at a rate that we believe to be substantially accelerated) in a way that will be detrimental to the life quality of (some portion of) people, not to mention, of course, all the tigers and caribou and tuna, but rather because it totally misrepresents the import and meaning of this problem. The problem is emphatically not that seven billion people are consuming calories produced in the wrong way. The problem is that there are seven billion people consuming calories.

So, with due respect to the gallery, both this and the prior post are emphatically "another episode in the 'civilization ain't green' series."

103 comments:

AlanSmithee said...

Over population trumps global warming! Haha! Ioz wins teh intarwebs!

IOZ said...

Is there a trophy? Cuz if all I get for winning is a Groupon, Ima be pissed.

Charles F. Oxtrot said...

Yeah, well The Creator who Created All of Us trumps everything, even if you don't believe in Him.

Muntz!

The Mathmos said...

This calls for an appeal to Professor Emeritus :

http://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_population_energy_video1.html

Montag said...

i'm convinced that humans are poisoning the very air and water humans depend on to live, and that industrial activity is causing global warming.

now, if all 6 billion of us just put our heads together to change our habits, make better choices, rein in industry...

StPaulite said...

It looks like 08-09 was the high water mark for Western political liberalism around here, and that wasn't enough to do anything at all about this. So I guess we'll see how it goes. It'll be exciting no matter what!!

I hope the denialists are right and/or the Malthusians are wrong.

Prep fo da the Wurst, Hope fo da Best said...

Well, I hope the fringe denialists on the global cooling kick aren't right. Exciting times either way, though, for shizzle!

Mr.Fundamental said...

there will be plenty more of us running around on this planet before all is said and done, and any such decline begins.

What are you changing?
Who do you think you're changing?
You can't change things, we're all stuck in our ways
It's like trying to clean the ocean
What do you think you can drain it?
Well it was poison and dry long before you came

IOZ said...

But then, happen to know that there's a little Lebowski on the way. I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' it-self, down through the generations, westward the wagons, across the sands a time until--

Mr.Fundamental said...

aw shucks

rowan said...

Well, I'm gonna keep not having children. Just doin' my part.

Frederick said...

Okay, then.

Anonymous said...

I love that you think "climate change" and "global warming" inaccurately describe a problem, and think that "civilization," on the other hand, does.

LA Confidential Pantload said...

They were meliorists, Dude?

MichaelRyerson said...

Oh, well done! Well done! Such perseverence in the face of immutable logic! The problem's not in the argument but in the definitions! Better than a spirited game of twister. I guess the skeptics will die right along with the rest of us.

AlanSmithee said...

Oh yeah? Well, I'll see yer over population and raise you a peek oil and two meteor strikes.

la Rana said...

Malthusian! I want another post to see how many more ways IOZ can be misunderstood.

Approximate conversation with a clipboard toter the other day:

CBT: "Save the earth!"
LR "From what"
CBT: "global warming!"
LR: "Have we asked Earth's opinion? Maybe Gaia prefers a global mean surface temperature up a few celsius"
CBT: "Hundreds of thousands of people will die!"
LR: "Eventually"
CBT: "Don't you care?"
LR: "not enough to imagine that Moses was real"

MichaelRyerson said...

perhaps you misunderstand my criticism. yes, that's it.

la Rana said...

you didn't say anything that could be misunderstood.

MichaelRyerson said...

Oh my god, you misunderstand me. really.

NutellaonToast said...

Oh man, I didn't realize your devastating critique of climate change was about semantic shit like which direction the change goes, or the common but wholly unrelated phenomenon of people making a pointless distinction between humans and the rest of nature.

You're right, I failed to understand what a breath taking take down that really is.

Jess said...

Dudes, he already told you how to fix this falling-sky issue. You'd best get crackin' on that supervirus! The rhetoric, such as it is, hasn't convinced anyone who owns a car or buys things at stores, but there's always hope for devastating pandemical plagues.

Anonymous said...

blame the reader when you fail to articulate.

la Rana said...

boring.

Anonymous said...

Ioz discovers population explosions and collapses are a part of nature.

Industrialism breaks out and is excused. Bowling alleys are saved.

You know how much energy it takes to make a golf ball?

Tee 'er up, monsur.

Soj said...

Never mistake those people who talk as the only people with an opinion.

NutellaonToast said...

So, with due respect to the gallery, both this and the prior post are emphatically "another episode in the 'civilization ain't green' series."

Funny, you have no problem railing against the losing side of not killing people all the fucking time (civilization ain't peaceful) but it really gets your goat when someone has the temerity to suggest we use CFLs? Gosh, it's almost like you don't have some consistent moral position about the value of life and really just hate it when people tell you what to do.

Fuckin' libertarians. We would like our undies back.

Wolynski said...

Climates have changed long before the industrial revolution and will continue to change - that's the nature of our solar system.

Yes, human beings are detrimental to our planet - maybe the planet will be better off without us?

Anonymous said...

Woly,
Define "better".

MiRy,
We're not misunderestimating you one bit.

Capt'n Obvious

Anonymous said...

@NoT

Civilization IS peaceful. The State, OTOH, not so much.

Capt'n Obvious

MichaelRyerson said...

Here, let me help you (you’re dense but even you should be able to follow this). Let’s see, global warming or climate change, two terms which prove to be generally inadequate but pervasive, are largely natural occurrences and thus not to be resisted. Whatever man’s contribution, however measured, is the result of demand to live the lives we have grown to love and therefore not negotiable and we couldn’t do anything about it anyway. See? Two sentences. Direct and unambiguous. If there’s a place on the internet with a larger component of hot air and sycophancy, I’d like to see it. Links? As for Capt'n Oblivious' paean to noble man in a stateless environment I say go to
Somalia but take a gun.

Jack Crow said...

Somalia is not stateless, Ryerson. The competing factions don't have a top dog yet - but that's because a much more powerful foreign state keeps knocking them off.

MichaelRyerson said...

Somalia is as close as you're going to get in the modern world. My point stands, dipshit.

PR said...

It was industrialized farming using fossil fuels in the internal combustion engine that allowed us to overpopulate the planet.

Anonymous said...

Somaliland aint stateless but Ryerson's point which isn't a point still has point because Ryerson, he hinz mumbled it.

Eshgato said...

Ok, so maybe the human-caused climate disaster thing isn't well-defined and the consequences not fully understood. But shouldn't we apply Pascal's Wager anyway and let government spend trillions to try to fix it? Think of how many jobs that would create.

Leonard said...

Actually it was the human brain which allowed us to populate the planet. The industrialized farming and fossil fuels are important, but compared to the organ that created them, they are implementation details. "Overpopulate" is not objective, unless you happen to know the future.

Does is matter which end of the telescope we look through? Yes; when you see the driving force as something renewable, which human intelligence and inventiveness are, then you see possibility that our existence is sustainable. When you see the driver as a finite thing like fossil fuel, then you convince yourself that our existence is not sustainable.

Put another way: the left sees people as mouths, that is, "overpopulation". The right sees people as brains and hands, in addition to mouths. Hence, "population".

Anonymous said...

@MiRy

Yet, O State, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

Capt'n Obvious

la Rana said...

I for one think Somolia is the perfect analogue to the gradual elimination of governmental powers within a well educated, uber-cosseted, post-industrial democratic republic. I mean, its uncanny

And obviously, obviously, if the current intention to diminish the human impact on the environment is conceptually flawed, it is actually impossible to do so.

And finally, on a personal level, half the commentariat disagreeing with you is the definition of sychophancy.

For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint!

Dunc said...

That's still a piss-poor excuse for trotting out such hugely bogus and ignorant statements such as "It rests on one hugely false premise: that "climate" or "the environment" or what have you is a static system".

It does no such thing, arts boy. Quite the fucking contrary, actually.

"Well, all right, but the environment isn't static; it's dynamic. It is constantly changing. And every since photosynthesis, living things have had a dramatic and constant effect on it."

Congratulations. You've just summarised the first ten minutes of the first lesson of Climatology 101, only you've done it like it's a fantastic insight from your own unique brain, rather than such an obvious truism that no-one with the least hint of the vaguest inkling of understanding anything at all about the subject would bother to remark on it.

What's next - a post in which you complain about how astrophysicists have been ignoring the effects of gravity all this time?

Oh, and as for this: "The truth is that a meaningful reduction in human "emissions"; a "solution" to "global warmning--these are only accomplished by changing human civilization.", all I can say is, "Welcome to the 1970s dude". Yes, we know. (Professional bullshit artists in the NYT notwithstanding.)

MichaelRyerson said...

take it easy, dunc, yer in pretty fast company hereabouts. these guys can suck IOZ's dick from every angle.

la Rana said...

Don't just tease me Dunc, lemme have it. I mean, I get that its "hugely bogus and ignorant" and "does no such thing," but what does that mean? Rhetoric is not an argument (pay attention Ryerson).

IOZ said...

I think you are in the wrong thread, dunc. But anyway. I don't really think you understand what is being criticized in either post.

IOZ said...

Although you do have to admit, la_rana, that I was really obfuscatory and unclear by saying, "I happen to agree that human activity is impacting the environment" and "of course, human activity alters the natural world in which it is embeded" in the first sentence of each post.

Dunc said...

I'm not interested in what you think you're criticising in either post, I'm just firing off at certain tangents which particularly get my goat, and the idea that anyone with half a clue thinks that the climate system is static in the absence of human intervention is high on that list.

I get that its "hugely bogus and ignorant" and "does no such thing," but what does that mean?

It means that understanding the dynamic nature of the climate system is absolutely fundamental to the entire fucking topic.

Dunc said...

OK, now I don't think you don't understand what I'm criticising here.

Dunc said...

Crap, erroneous double negative...

la Rana said...

I was actually going to say that the idea that human activity alters the natural world is conceptually flawed, me being of the einsteinian/emersonian camp on "nature." But then I remembered I am sychophant.

I am not sure I agree Dunc. Understanding that the climate is a dynamic system is fundamental, but the entire premise of climate change is to stop the climate from changing. We understand that its dynamic, but nonetheless want to maintain it in some sort of stasis.

IOZ said...

Your error, dunc, is attributing that which is being criticized to the critic.

You need to separate "climatology" from "climate change." One is the study of something; the other is a political slogan.

Dunc said...

but the entire premise of climate change is to stop the climate from changing

No, it isn't. That would be stupid, because it's completely impossible. The objective is to stop one particular type of human-induced change from continuing in a completely uncontrolled manner.

I tell you it's not a good idea to burn your house down with everybody still inside, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to prevent any future change in the built environment, and only a moron would equate the two.

Jack Crow said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jack Crow said...

Frog: "I am not sure I agree Dunc. Understanding that the climate is a dynamic system is fundamental, but the entire premise of climate change is to stop the climate from changing. We understand that its dynamic, but nonetheless want to maintain it in some sort of stasis."

Bingo.

Perhaps the sideline has some origin in the abandonment of the problem of pollution, replaced by the "problem" of climate change?

Pollution is produced by corporations, by industries of scale, by war machines, by the benefactors of the current order of things.

"Climate change" is attributed to humanity itself - and the solution is entrusted to corporations, to industries of scale, to greened up war machines and to the benefactors and current rulers of the existing order of things.

Dunc said...

Your error, dunc, is attributing that which is being criticized to the critic.

Did you or did you not state that "[the idea of trying to limit AGW] rests on one hugely false premise: that "climate" or "the environment" or what have you is a static system"? Because that is what I'm criticising.

Jack Crow said...

Dunc,

IOZ Premise one: the climate is not a static system.

IOZ Premise two: attempting to force the climate into stasis ignores the fact that climate is not static, and being climate what-what, cannot be static.

Conclusion: the debate about climate change ignores the actual climate.

Dunc said...

There's rather a large difference between "not changing at a completely unprecedented rate" and "static".

Nobody is trying to "force the climate into stasis". Unless, of course, you're totally unable to distinguish between human and geological time scales - I've noticed that many people seem to have trouble with orders of magnitude.

This should not be difficult to understand.

Anonymous said...

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

la Rana said...

Dunc, you are being a little disengenuous. We are absolutely trying to control the climate in some manner, and hold it in a state, that if not perfectly static, is closer to stasis than, say, an understanding of the earths climate over 4.5 bil reveals. Talk about fucking up time scales. Jesus.

Jack Crow said...

Dunc,

You're also treating "attempting to force the climate" as if it means "will force the climate."

I used the word "attempting," deliberately.

stras said...

Yeah, see, this thread is a perfect example of what pisses me off about this blog. A post that only exists as a sheepish way to excuse/backtrack against a prior, really poorly-written post born largely of ignorance, culminating in a fatuous declaration of the obvious, followed by repeated snotty dismissals of anyone who actually knows anything about the fucking subject.

Dunc said...

We are absolutely trying to control the climate in some manner, and hold it in a state, that if not perfectly static, is closer to stasis than, say, an understanding of the earths climate over 4.5 bil reveals.

Name me a period in geological history when global climate has changed at anything like the rate we are changing it now. (Note: global. There are a few localised events of comparable or even greater rapidity, particularly at the end of the last interglacial.) Climate normally changes at rates several degrees of magnitude more slowly. For the vast majority of Earth's history, the global climate has not changed dramatically on human timescales. The handful of times when it did were (a) very unusual, and (b) really not fun for anything living through the experience.

Saying that we should try to limit the rate at which we modify the climate is not the same as trying to enforce stasis.

And none of this addresses my initial point anyway, which was that IOZ had presented a completely erroneous view of what the concept of "climate change" is about. (At least from a scientific perspective. I'm not interested in arguing about what the carnival barkers think about it.)

Jack Crow said...

...and the solution to this, Dunc? Isn't it akin to putting rapists in charge of the rape hot line?

That's the problem with the "climate change" argument. It blames "humanity" for the pollution caused by the ruling class, and then asks the rest of us to pay the ruling class to pretend to clean it up.

Dunc said...

Who the fuck said anything about solutions? Not me.

"Whatarewegonnado?" is not usually a successful rhetorical counter around these parts. I have no solutions, I just get pissed off with people misrepresenting the nature of the problem. I'm a pedant.

la Rana said...

Q: "Name me a period in geological history when global climate has changed at anything like the rate we are changing it now."

A: "The handful of times when it did were (a) very unusual, and (b) really not fun for anything living through the experience."


"Saying that we should try to limit the rate at which we modify the climate is not the same as trying to enforce stasis."

Yes. In the manner in which Jack and I are using the term, it is. Trying to hold the climate between two temperature extremes, or limiting its rate of change, is what we mean by attempting to "maintain it in some sort of stasis." You may not like that, but you don't get to pretend that "limiting the amount or rate of change" is not "some sort of stasis."

You are missing IOZ's point entirely (as he tried to explain to you in this thread). He was not trying to explain that the science behind climate change is faulty, but that our response is conceptually fucked. If we want to survive on this cooling rock in maximum comfort until the next meteor hits, changing the shit coming out of the smokestacks is a doomed and foolish way to proceed.

Dunc said...

Ah, so you're redefining "stasis" to mean "maintained within some bounds." Fine, whatever. It's not like words have meanings or anything. Of course, it completely destroys the argument that the climate isn't static, as there's been liquid water somewhere on the surface for 4 billion years or so, and that's "statis" by your exciting new definition.

Q: "Name me a period in geological history when global climate has changed at anything like the rate we are changing it now."

A: "The handful of times when it did were (a) very unusual, and (b) really not fun for anything living through the experience."


I said name one. I'm trying to figure out if you have the least clue what you're talking about or are just bullshitting. So far, signs are pointing to option B. (I also pull this trick with "name the most significant known negative climate feedback"...)

Look, if you want to argue that attempts to mitigate our impact on the climate are misguided, or doomed to failure, or whatever, then I have no problem. I'm making a very narrow, scientifically pedantic criticism of one particular statement positing the notion of an otherwise-static climate here.

Jack Crow said...

Great point, Rana.

The argument also assumes that "what's best for industrial civilization ruled by hinky white guys who tend to worship an angry mountain god stripped of his localized resentment and his Jewishness, presiding as they are over the ruins of billions of lives, while they have their cops and sky robots fuck up anyone who disagrees" is exactly equal to "what's best for the planet."

Jack Crow said...

"Stasis" currently (in referring to the climate, especially) means stable equilibrium, no?

It don't think Rana was using it to mean "state of immovable fixity which hereafter cannot be altered."

I know I wasn't.

Anonymous said...

"Name me a period in geological history when global climate has changed at anything like the rate we are changing it now."

Maybe "it is changing" would be a more appropriate?

Capt'n Obvious

Nathan Wright said...

It's not carbon the AGW fanatics have a problem with, it's human civilization. The fanatics have managed to find an unholy ally in the financial elites, who have cooked up a scheme that would use AGW as a pretext to skim a few percentage points off every transaction in the global economy. Yeah, that'll solve our problems

Justin said...

The claim about the bogus premise, "climate change" is bogus. It rests on one hugely false premise: that "climate" or "the environment" or what have you is a static system, a delicate equilibrium... is about the only point I disagreed on. I still don't know where any such premise exists in the climate change 'community.' I was also thrown by the use of stasis, my understanding of stasis is a state of unchanging equilibrium, not a state of slower change.

Ioz hit on the actual false premise, that we can continue living at the scale and comfort of today's civilization AND through the use of some technological chimera escape the side-effects of our energy usage. There is great business opportunity here, people are scared, and the rich know they can make a quick buck selling snake oil as a cure to what ails them.

la Rana said...

Jesus fuck Dunc, READ MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS before you start mouthing off about redifining "stasis." I have been saying the same fucking thing the whole time. You either didn't read what I said, or don't want to deal with it.

"I said name one. I'm trying to figure out if you have the least clue what you're talking about or are just bullshitting."

IOW, it was a means of establishing whether an argument from authority was plausible. I am not even sure what to call a failed attempt at a logical fallacy, but I find it hilarious, so keep on keepin' on.

"I'm making a very narrow, scientifically pedantic criticism of one particular statement positing the notion of an otherwise-static climate here."

Yes, you are. And I is esplodin' it. Our attempts "to mitigate our impact on the climate are misguided, or doomed to failure, or whatever" precisely because they are an attempt to dictate some sort of stasis (don't panic!) to the environment in which we find ourselves.

Agi said...

save the planet. kill yourself.

Jack Crow said...

Justin,

I think if you switch out "unchanging" with "stable" you'll get a working definition with wide applicability. Take homeostasis, for example. It doesn't describe an unchanging self-similarity (functionally, death). It explains, instead, an equilibrium defined by self-similarity across a range. The range is important - in that it allows the system in question some flexibility with regard to its "internal" processes, as well as in interaction with its own larger environment. Stasis doesn't preclude flexibility along the range which defines self-similarity. It communicates, I think, that those systemic occurrences which exceed the range, or tend to exceed it, destabilize.

[Which is really funny, when you think about it - because the Greek original was used to convey something like "civil war."]

IOZ said...

Megalulz.

Aeolus said...

One of the goofier comment threads-- mostly because the top post appears to have suffered from an excess of Robitussin.

Two observations:

1) For the purposes of this debate the issue is not whether climate is a static or dynamic system. Pace tanto nomini, nobody is claiming it is a static system. The question is, can we characterize the present state of the global climate precisely enough to assess how it might be varying from that model? In other words, can we hypothetically (not actually) freeze it in time?

2) Assuming that the modeling is as good as the consensus of climatologists suggests, it is completely reasonable for states and defenders of states to desire intervention against AGW. The principal effect of global warming is to undermine states, markets, and so on. The Planet will of course carry on, but massive damage to the present balance of social and economic power would result. I think that this calculus is acknowledged implicitly by most parties to the discussion. So it's kind of disingenuous of them to throw darts at the science, when in fact it's their desire to prevent policies that could save the state system from being enacted which cases them to oppose e.g. efforts to bring down greenhouse gas emissions. This Republican Party verity is just a kind of hothouse version of anti-New Dealism.

la Rana said...

The whoosh was this discussion going over your head.

Mr.Fundamental said...

"there is no life without carbon."

Aeolus said...

Assuming things go over other people's heads seems to be your default. Usually you just missed the boat.

The question I'm raising is whether IOZ's stance is as outre as he'd like to think or whether it is "acknowledged implicitly by most parties to the discussion" that it's all about governments, not planets, governments they want to drown in a bathtub," as Glub for Growth Man put it.

IOZ said...

I don't think he was assuming.

Aeolus said...

Oh lulz, as you say. It's taken what, two long posts and a string of rancid comments from your fluffer to demonstrate that you couldn't tell a model from a yodel.

Go on, back to Brady's dreamy hair!

Jess said...

(I also pull this trick with "name the most significant known negative climate feedback"...)

OK I'll bite... do you refer to increasing cloud cover (thus increasing albedo and decreasing absorption of solar energy) with increasing temperature?

I think your "name me a period in geological history" challenge is poorly posed. We have much more precise and accurate temperature information about "now" than we do about "geological history". If global mean temps had changed by 5 degrees over some 1000-yr period 20 million years ago, how would we be able to say from our current vantage point that the period hadn't actually been 200 yrs or 5000 yrs? If we expand "now" up to 1000-yr units, the extremes of the past 1000 yrs (MWP, LIA, etc.) are just noise to average out. When you deal with noisy data, fiddling with time steps can swamp any real phenomena.

If we're left arguing what is "static" vs. what is a regime of acceptable rates of change, that's really a philosophical argument. We have no reason to think that the changes in temperature that bracket e.g. the various ice ages, or that accompanied the various extinction-event asteroidal/volcanic centuries of darkness, were in any sense gradual. I take the point that those times were probably not enjoyable, but they do prove that the system is dominated by negative feedback even during periods of very rapid change. I don't think I've heard any claim that the next 100 years will see as large a temperature change as we'd expect from a massive asteroid impact, so we're still completely in the "stable" area of state space.

You're on much safer ground comparing absolute temps than rate of change. But that kind of lets the air out of the whole kerfuffle, since we know that temps have been both higher and lower than they are today.

Anonymous said...

Damn, Jess.

la Rana said...

Can we get some better hecklers? "You don't understand this thing that I will not or cannot explain" is just fucking tedious. I'm sure IOZ is cowed by your declaration.

Fluffer is good tho, if a bit staid.

LA Confidential Pantloade said...

This is just too good, monsieur. 80+ comments, vigorously debating....what....? And, if one (or another, or another) conquers all, and everyone concedes that there is one commenter with a perspective that combines wit, sagacity, detailed scientific and historical knowledge, deep compassion for the human race, and a devil-may-care insouciance for democratic institutions, that commenter is awarded? A ticket to the Warhol Museum? A round of applause? First place on the Jefferson Starship? Fuck me on toast. I like this. A lot.

Anonymous said...

You may not like that, but you don't get to pretend that "limiting the amount or rate of change" is not "some sort of stasis."

Ergo, all is permitted. Thanks for clearing that up.

Trees for tees!

davidly said...

Summarizing:
Anti-human-caused-climate-deniers get their panties in a wad because they took a whiff of the liver IOZ'd cooked and - forgetting yet again that they don't like liver - took a bite howling (with their mouths still full, mind you), "Ick, I hate liver! Monsieur is full of shit!"

MichaelRyerson gets cum-dunc'd
with his own: 'these guys can suck IOZ's dick from every angle.' gag.

Dunc hisownself falls into moments of self-doubt and makes too many goddamn comments, though eventually able to effectively say what MichaelRyerson could not (explaining the latter's sudden ironic outbreak of dick-sucking).

la Rana calls tea dispenser Dunc opaquely disingenuous with 'We are absolutely trying to control the climate in some manner, and hold it in a state, that if not perfectly static, is closer to stasis than, say, an understanding of the earths climate over 4.5 bil reveals.'

Jack Crow and all of the above argue past each other with semantics, all the while denying the fact that they are doing so - continuing the long tradition of simultaneously discussing separate issues.

Just about everyone on the thread makes a valid point, but habitually beside the point.

Point: LA Confidential Pantload. Enjoy the encore of "We Built this City".

Dunc said...

OK I'll bite... do you refer to increasing cloud cover (thus increasing albedo and decreasing absorption of solar energy) with increasing temperature?

Fuck no. Not even close.

Ah, what's the fucking point? Thanks for reminding me what I hate about the internet. And people.

MichaelRyerson said...

And now comes self-congratulatory davidly to sum up the thread for the poor beknighted repliers and show IOZ he deserves the front of the line. Well, I’ve got a fast flash for you davidly, there’s a distinct difference between couldn’t and wouldn’t when it comes to giving another of IOZ’s circular stews the attention it sorta deserves. Dunc wants to engage in a reasoned exchange? Good for him. He’ll learn. Am I over my limit?

Paul Alexander said...

I think climate change is far more important than people dying from war, starvation and preventable disease precisely because it will effect people like you and me sometime in the near-to-distant future. I think the people living in shantytowns and having bombs rained down on them need to realize that now is not the time for them to be pressing their issues, there's carbon or something being put in the atmosphere. Oh yeah, and let's forget all the nuclear weapons that are poised to destroy the world at the press of a button, that's so 20 years ago. We need to create a sustainable future!

Anonymous said...

Future events such as these will affect you in the future.

fish said...

but the entire premise of climate change is to stop the climate from changing

No, it isn't. That would be stupid, because it's completely impossible.


Okay, so you do agree with IOZ.

Aeolus said...

a lot of obtuseness. the premise of "climate change" so called is that complex systems like climate are in an equilibrium, not that they are static. Industrialization of the entire planet, a phenomenon of the last 150 years, has disrupted the equilibrium. So we are entering a period of very rapid and unpredictable change. The system is complex enough that we can't respond to individual outcomes, thus it is easier to try and alter the profile of industrialization, which at least we do understand.

It's really not that complex.

Paul Alexander said...

All we have to do is change the profile of industrialization? That should be a piece of cake! I mean look at how easy it's been to get everyone on this message board to jump on board! Just let us know what changes to make and how much so we can avoid that rapid and unpredictable change!

MichaelRyerson said...

Aeolus, too direct, insufficiently baroque for this crowd. you see what little you left for alexander? he's left with trying to say 'it is thus easier' means you've said, it is 'easy' to change the profile of industrialization, which, of course, you didn't say. this doesn't rise to the level of grade school debate. but this is exactly the heel-biting routine so favored around here. good luck next time.

Anonymous said...

Beyond the philosophical issues of man's place in the world, lays the mundane factoid that the computer models used in the AGW fiasco likely have jack-squat to do with the reality in the field.

Indeed I find the very proposal that current modelling methodology would yield precise predictions for atmosphere dynamics sincerely risible.

I might also note that this nonsense has been going on for 20 years already. So, what were the prognostications made in say 95 or 00 that are/would be verifiable in 2010 or 2020?

Capt'n Obvious

High Arka said...

IOZ, I find your implication that there must/probably will be a mass die-off troubling.

Posit two numbers. Let X be the energy requirements to feed, clothe and shelter 10 billion humans. Let Y be the energy requirements to gain a degree of control over our planet's weather sufficient to maintain temperate, healthy conditions where we live.

I do not see why X and Y cannot be (theoretically) obtained and/or maintained. Our species possesses a magnificent capability for ingenuity and achievement. If we were to have technological and social improvements, we could easily survive with 6, 8, 10 billion or more people on this planet and/or others.

It is indeed fantastical to imagine that we might, say, stop fielding vast militaries (primary sources of pollution), improve renewable power collection, stop waste, etc. However, when we're talking about our future as a species, we should not limit ourselves to what is "realistic." What is realistic by that definition is what we have; what is realistic is Obama and Exxon and clean coal and all that.

If we put our minds to it, fantastical things could be swiftly accomplished.

It is a dangerous attitude to find fault with our population numbers. It is our stupid behavior, not our numerical quantities, which threaten us.

Perhaps there is some population number that this solar system (all energy on Earth coming from the sun and/or the big bang(s)) cannot sustain, but it is not a mere 6 billion. With how much we are now wasting, how relatively primitive our technology is compared to what we can probably accomplish, and how foolishly we are behaving, there is a vast, monstrously-colossal space for improvement before "reducing our numbers" becomes an appropriate option.

High Arka said...

Going on a little bit:

The "reducing our numbers" argument is one of those last ditch memes inserted into our general consciousness by the evil ones. Even when some of us have managed to figure out that (1) evil rich people are screwing everyone to their own short-term ends, and (2) almost everyone out there is too sick, malnourished, mistreated, uneducated and hopeless to understand (1), there are still a few malignant lines of defense for the elites.

"Our population is too high" is one of these. Evil elites thrive on "dark ages" type situations, where everyone is sick, impoverished, and living in hell. The nature of evil is to repress the erratic growth and chaotic expansion of life by using fear to deaden hope. Convincing we peons that we cannot possibly afford X (be X equal to a planet without nation states that each have a really cool flag, health care for all, globalized free solar power, or 6 billion unique souls living lives and having children and being part of this planet) is how evil operates. Evil argues that humanity cannot possible achieve X, and therefore, we must settle for Y. Inevitably, the fear and giving up lead to subjugation.

In the same way that elites tacitly approve of "tea parties" for helping keep a certain group of people in line, and tacitly approve of Obama's "reasonable" political tactics to keep another group in line, they approve of the "overpopulation" garbage to keep yet another (and much smaller) group of people thinking inside tidy boundaries.

Anonymous said...

@ IOZ "Crackpot positivists like Tommy F. like to imagine themselves on the side of science, but they constantly produce howlers like the excerpt above. 9 out of 10 dentists agree . . . Colgate is the best! But obviously, "science" is not democratic; the fact that a majority consensus exists does not make anything right."


Science is partly democratic but that is not the point. Tom F is a gas bag, and a bore, and a dickhead and undoubtedly, singlehandedly responsible for more carbon emmissions than a small pacific nation.(not an exageration). However the "9 out of 10" comment makes sense in the context of modern (american led) "consensus reality". ie there are "two sides to every story" and every opinion, no matter how retarded or ill conceived and or malevolent and fundamently dishonest, should be given equal time with more sensible observations. the democratization of truth is not democratic, its insane and only serves the purposes of those who wish to obfuscate the truth. now days, any cracker moron with a creation museum gets equal time with any emminent, serious, published, tenured evolutionary biologist. and this condition does nothing to advance the cause of belief either.its a cynical state of affairs serving the interests only of those who dont care about the truth. or only care about truths that make them mo money mo money mo money (ie americans)

Anonymous said...

@ 830 anon

It matters not who merits, but who judges the merit,

as, mutatis mutandis, said Uncle Joe Stalin.

Capt'n Obvious

M Atwood said...

Where's Crake when we need him?

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You could have made exactly the same kind of argument about the panoply of environmental regulations put into place forty years ago, which have had some demonstrable successes in making my air and water cleaner and my life better. That stuff opened new business markets while simultaneously strengthening the state too. It's all a technocratic cost-benefit type question, which all the attitudinizing sidesteps. Perhaps in the name of questioning technocratic managerialism in general, but since the only alternative offered is a nihilistic embrace of the apocalypse, just personally I don't find that attractive.

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