Thursday, December 16, 2010

Evil in Return

As you can see in comments to the previous post, the liberal supporters of state authority are eager to impute naïveté to our views. "Did you really expect Manning to walk?" They are astonished! He could be a flight risk, someone rather hilariously suggests. I want you to ponder the use of the word "risk" in that statement and explain to me how it isn't hilarious on its face.

Obviously I did not expect Manning to walk. I do not expect him to go free. He will be punished and tortured, with or without a trial, whether guilty or innocent of a particular crime, whether he did what he is claimed to have done or not, whether what he is alleged to have done is right and just or wrong and unjust. I just want to be clear here. The procedural questions are totally immaterial. They have no bearing on my position. That he will be punished, and brutally, has already been determined. He has already been punished, and brutally. The injustice perpetrated upon him precedes the ritualized pursuit of justice so fetishized and lionized by liberal authoritarians. No future trial or tribunal, no future process-verbal or court martial, no matter how "fair", no matter how "impartial", can ever do anything but compound the injustice already committed. Everything subsequent is tainted by the torture he has already undergone, is currently undergoing. Even should the heavens part and the angels deliver him to freedom tomorrow, with the Holy Word of Jesus, Allah, and the Brahmanic pantheon engraving his innocence and righteousness upon his forehead, it will only make what has already been done to him all the more reprehensible.

The question "what is to be done with Private Manning," posed to me as if it presents an imponderable moral and practical conundrum that I have never considered, is irrelevant. It is, to use a phrase one of my regular commenter-critics recently reminded me of while criticizing me in comments, not even wrong. I do not care about the state's dilemma in dealing with Private Manning. I don't care about the state's dilemmas at all. The state will dispose of Private Manning as it sees fit. My interest is in the attitudes people take toward that state. Those who begin with the question of what the government should do with its enemies, even if their conclusion is some banal exhortation somehow to treat them humanely and fairly as it helps itself to their lives, are on the wrong side.

70 comments:

Greg said...

After these past few posts, I've become more sympathetic to the position that you've posited. However, what is the alternative? Are you advocating some sort of statelessness?

NutellaonToast said...

Oh Greg.....

Professor Coldheart said...

Greg: the alternative to what?

Greg said...

Maybe I'm coming late to the whole discussion but for someone like Manning who has leaked classified information (irrespective of whether they ought to have been classified in the first place). Are we to tolerate that? I feel that the only outcome where that sort of behaviour is tolerated is the demise of the state.

So if that's not what's advocated here, then what are the alternatives to prevent critical information from being passed around?

Jack Crow said...

Not just tolerate, Greg. Help in any way possible. The demise of the state is the point.

Plea-bargaining mercy for the state is like apologizing for the tendency of rapists to rape. Sure the rapist might write a good sonata, but that doesn't mean he isn't a rapist.

Sure, the state might pony up some cash to do a plausible security theater - oh, and Head Start and stuff - but it doesn't mean that the people who get together to rule the world, define property, punish the offenders, and generally make life miserable for most of the world's involuntary inhabitants aren't as a rule, and in almost every instant, subject to Lucy Parson's Prescription.

mistah charley, ph.d. said...

"Democracy don't rule the world;
Better get that through your head.
This world is ruled by violence:
But that's better left unsaid."

Bob Dylan, Union Sundown, 1983

and also

"War's good business so give your son
and I'd rather have my country die for me."

Grace Slick, ReJoyce, 1969 or so

Greg asks, "Are we to tolerate that?"

What you mean we, white boy?

Anonymous said...

It's not that you're wrong about any of this ... I mean, you're right, of course ... but your further clarification - and even Greg's responses ... naive (or intentionally obtuse) as they were ... illustrates why your recent posts on this point are banal (aside perhaps from the first one, which did neatly capture some embarrassing inconsistency on Matthew's part).

I mean, Yglesias believes in the necessity of the state. Film at eleven. It's true that once one goes down that road, plenty of appalling consequences ensue, but ... I'm not sure that this is, exactly, the most interesting example of same.

Montag said...

BOOYAH! great post.

Ethan said...

ioz, I seriously could not be happier with your three posts today than I am. Thank you so much.

Anonymous said...

I want you to ponder the use of the word "risk" in that statement and explain to me how it isn't hilarious on its face.

As anon 3:25 suggests, this is just baiting of non-anarchists. Manning is clearly a risk to the interests of the state, which is only hilarious to we anarchists. Progressives, however, are forced into a contradictory position because they both oppose certain military acts by the state, which Manning's actions threaten, and support the overall health and existence of the state, which Manning's actions also threaten. So they're essentially forced to say: I'm glad he did it, but he needs to be punished.

mushr00m said...

Of course, now that the govt is going after Assange for conspiracy, they're trying to get Manning to testify against him.

That should make for an interesting cross-examination.

"We're you offered anything in exchange for your testimony today?"

"Yes, my sanity. And the sun."

El Serracho! said...

as the poet said..sometimes when you're on, you are really fucking on.

well said, ioz.

Justin said...

Greg,
your response is probably going to stretch to the breaking point just about anyone's patience who responds to you in these parts. Ioz is not advocating anything here, he is rejecting the mindset you are so clearly exhibiting here. Go back and read it again, he is stating that 'what should be done with Manning' is not his concern. He does not care about or side with the state's dilemmas. He recognizes that the state's dilemmas are not his moral considerations, they are the state's, which is to say they are the considerations the powerful must make to best maintain and expand their power.

And then here you come, asking the exact question he is rejecting. Let's take your question only add the piece that you left unstated, "What is the alternative" (to imprisoning and torturing those who have taken direct action to expose and undermine the criminality of the powerful)? the answer, supplied over the last three posts is simply stated as: Don't imprison and torture dissidents.

Anonymous said...

"Progressives, however, are forced into a contradictory position because they both oppose certain military acts by the state, which Manning's actions threaten, and support the overall health and existence of the state, which Manning's actions also threaten. So they're essentially forced to say: I'm glad he did it, but he needs to be punished."

Oh, we're not all forced to say that. Some of us like the state when it passes out money to keep people from starving, but dislike it when it is flinging around high explosives and supporting death squads and torture and locking people up for whistleblowing.

IOZ said...

Oh, we're not all forced to say that. Some of us like the state when it passes out money to keep people from starving, but dislike it when it is flinging around high explosives and supporting death squads and torture and locking people up for whistleblowing.

I love the idea that these are unrelated activities.

Jack Crow said...

C'mon now IOZ - that state gets all that money to pass around by magical Jesus wishes.

Michael Dawson said...

Greg, are you really unaware that anarchists exist? You sound like it. IOZ is an anarchist. He wants the state to die, to go away, to cease its existence.

Not all who lurk here are anarchists, however.

Meanwhile, how is it that you came to believe that tolerating open access to information means doom to the existence of government? You think government is impossible without covert operations? Why? What is your reasoning, if you actually have any?

The Medium Lobster said...

I think Greg fears that if the state were not able to conceal itself behind dozens of layers of official secrecy, the state might be exposed for what it is; and if the state were exposed for what it is, more of us might want to kill it.

Or to put it another way: the President is evil, but we must support him - how else can he work to effect that evil?

la Rana said...

Hey, Greg seemed nice and impressionable and now you hooligans have gone and scared him off. Telling a liberal that you think the state is illegitimate and ought to be eradicated (presuming you are not wearing a mask or thowing a motov cocktail) elicits the same sort of shock as explaining to a devout old lady that there is no god. You must cradle his balls as you splains it.

I call dibs on the definitive blawg post on demands for justice and punishment.

Enron said...

"The state will dispose of Private Manning as it sees fit."
In a sane society, this would be reversed

Anonymous said...

You're still arguing that any non-anarchist (anyone who thinks respect is due to the law even when one of them is unjust enough to break) should be regarded as one of "Hitler's willing executioners." I still think that book was stupid.

Anonymous said...

but as long as the state is still here, let's have a dinner party and go to the opera.

The Medium Lobster said...

Bradley Manning must be punished, for he has committed a crime - the crime of illegally informing us of our rulers' crimes. How else can we respect the Rule of Law?

Alaya said...

Dear Anonymous 9:29:

The only reason an unjust law should be respected is if you believe in the ultimate good of the state. If you wish the state to continue, you tolerate ("respect") unjust laws, because to disrespect them would imperil the state. It's lesser-evilism writ large. You don't want to destabilize the system, so you incoherently argue for the punishment of those whose violation of laws is an obvious good.

So, let's say it's 1830 and I'm a slave. I run away and live free for a while. Which is illegal, and I'm caught. Do you say: well, slavery is pretty evil, but a crime is a crime and we can't let everyone get away with them, then where would we be, write your congressperson! Or do you get your Quaker ass out of the goddamned meeting house and give those slaves some guns?

Anonymous said...

Alaya: you're conflating all law ("The State," in local parlance) with a particular oppressive slave-holding regime. It's perfectly reasonable to say that a law should be disobeyed because the regime that issued it is illegitimate, while continuing to advocate a just system of laws.

But IOZ isn't saying The Churchman's call for punishment is evil because America is an oppressor which engages in torture as a matter of course. He's saying that the call for punishment is inherently evil because advocating rule by laws is a call for torture. By that standard, Glenn Greenwald, for example, is an advocate of torture. Sorry, I find such logic twisted.

Aeolus said...

I love the idea that these are unrelated activities.

Fucking rip-off artist.

Jack Crow said...

Anon @ 10:51,

Does law protect the person as a person, or the person-as-a-subject-of-the-state?

Before you answer, consider Bagram.

Ed said...

OK, I'll bite. Suppose Bradley Manning was keeping President Obama in solitary confinment. Would IOZ be supportive of that?

NutellaonToast said...

Yea, and what if you're in an elevator with hitler and stalin and carrot top but only two bullets?

Anonymous said...

carrot pop pop.

Anonymous said...

You claim to hate the state but love Verdi, the Penguins and the Steelers. Opera is a creation of the imperial state. Without coercive taxation, huge casts and orchestras would have been be impossible to even think of. There is a reason that Renaissance music is all for chamber instruments, that orchestras get larger only in the 1500s as state coercion becomes more firmly entrenched and that you don't find real orchestral scores and operas until the imperial age of the eighteenth and nineteenth century.

Without federal subsidies gleaned from imperial raping pillaging and torturing, it would today be impossible to stage Don Carlo and Fidelio. Without state
"revenues" there would be no gigantic stadiums and hockey rinks with luxury boxes, on which 50-person football rosters are dependent. Since you seem to like these things, you must be arguing that in addition to the evil torture that the state visits on Iraq, Afghanistan and Bradley Manning, it also does some good. Ergo, you must be arguing that the good things justify the bad ones.

Or you may just be saying that the state is a reality for the moment, and while it exists, one might as well go to the opera. That is (eep!) something the state does well. It's sure terrible what they're doing to Manning. But how about that homoerotic duet "Dio che nell' alma infondere"?

Anonymous said...

"I love the idea that these are unrelated activities."

We aim to please. Obviously the Social Security program is directly related to American support for genocidal dictators, not to mention the genocides we commit more directly. Stands to reason.

Anonymous said...

Trying to predict your response, so let me save you the trouble--

Bismarck gave us the welfare state and the Germans committed genocide against the Herero in 1900. QED, or something like that.

Anonymous said...

@7:36

Without coercive taxation, huge casts and orchestras would have been be impossible to even think of.

Please, illuminate for us the role of taxation in the running of Theater auf der Wieden and Theater an der Wien.


Without federal subsidies gleaned from imperial raping pillaging and torturing, it would today be impossible to stage Don Carlo and Fidelio.

The concept that we're barbarians compared to 1800 Europe, too much for a "Forward March of History" deluded lib'rl?

Capt'n Obvious

Anonymous said...

P.S.

IIRC, there are few/no federal (or local) subsidies for that degenerate offspring of opera, musical theater?

IOZ said...

And meat is murder. Life entails contradiction? News at never.

As as minor corrective, by the way, no major opera company in the US receives any meaningful federal support . . . public funds from any level of government generally represent less than 5% of the annual operating budgets of performing arts organizations in America, and typically far less than that.

Likewise, your history of music is exactly and entirely wrong. Direct patronage by monarchs and nobles declined throughout the Renaissance and Baroque, and the large orchestras and major operas of the late classical and Romantic eras were the result of the advent of private concert halls, private investment, and ticket sales as "classical" music became a popular public entertainment. Rossini was immensely commercially successful; Verdi was commercially successful. They weren't vassals, good lord, they were businessmen.

Nice chattin' wit ya.

Greg said...

LOL, I didn't mean for it to seem as though I was scared away. I stumbled onto IOZ through some postings that James Wolcott had posted a while ago and well, I had never thought too much to categorise the posting.

Now, some have accused me of naïveté or being obtuse, if that was the impression from long time commenters, I would have to say that I am indeed naïve when it comes to this forum. I was not aware of IOZ's position/advocacy(?) of anarchy. I certainly don't have a problem with that.

@Justin, 4:36p - you are indeed correct and yes, a rereading of these past few postings has indeed made it clear to me that my question does seem to be talking past IOZ's position.

@Michael Dawson, 6:15p - Again, being a newcomer to these parts, that is the answer I was looking for!

To answer to the other questions, I may have written in haste previously. I think to the extremes (i.e. complete unfettered access of information) would indeed doom the nation-state form of government. As have been written elsewhere, our form of government needs to give those who are acting on our behalf (such as diplomats and FSO) certain latitude to conduct business. I know it's a much cliched point but just as it is unseemly to watch a sausage being made, so too with diplomacy.

Anonymous said...

Life entails contradiction, saith Matthew Yglesias.

I'm lazy, I'll just go to Wikipedia:

In the 15th and 16th centuries in Italy the households of nobles had musicians to provide music for dancing and the court, however with the emergence of the theatre, particularly opera, in the early 17th century, music was increasingly written for groups of players in combination, which is the origin of orchestral playing. Opera originated in Italy, and Germany eagerly followed. Dresden, Munich and Hamburg successively built opera houses.... In the 17th century and early 18th century...[a] composer such as Johann Sebastian Bach had control over almost all of the musical resources of a town.... As nobility began to build retreats away from towns, they began to hire musicians to form permanent ensembles. Composers such as the young Joseph Haydn would then have a fixed body of instrumentalists to work with.... The aristocratic orchestras worked together over long periods, making it possible for ensemble playing to improve with practice.

The Mannheim School

The court of the Elector Charles III Philip moved from Heidelberg to Mannheim in 1720, already employing an orchestra larger than that of any of the surrounding states. The orchestra grew even further in the following decades and came to include some of the best virtuosi of the time. Under the guidance of Kapellmeister Carlo Grua, the court hired such talents as Johann Stamitz, who is generally considered to be the founder of the Mannheim school, in 1741/42, and he became its director in 1750.
The most notable of the revolutionary techniques of the Mannheim orchestra were its more independent treatment of the wind instruments, and its famous whole-orchestra crescendo.

The change from civic music making where the composer had some degree of time or control, to smaller court music making and one-off performance, placed a premium on music that was easy to learn, often with little or no rehearsal. The results were changes in musical style and emphasis on new techniques. Mannheim had one of the most famous orchestras of that time, where notated dynamics and phrasing, previously quite rare, became standard (see Mannheim school). It also attended a change in musical style from the complex counterpoint of the baroque period, to an emphasis on clear melody, homophonic textures, short phrases, and frequent cadences: a style that would later be defined as classical.

Throughout the late 18th century composers would continue to have to assemble musicians for a performance, often called an "Academy", which would, naturally, feature their own compositions. In 1781, however, the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra was organized from the merchants concert society, and it began a trend towards the formation of civic orchestras that would accelerate into the 19th century.

I stand corrected on taxes and opera. No doubt increasing wealth of merchant musical societies that built was independent of imperial conquest! Here I thought The State and corporations were a single undifferentiated Money.

IOZ said...

It's Chip Davis. Weird.

demize! said...

Oh people will sing. Singers will sing alone or in combinations with, or without the state. Private obvious....

Anonymous said...

Whether or not IOZ has tastes that contradict his professed beliefs is irrelevant to the merit of his arguments, which is a good thing since it seems to me that he's arguing Opera's separateness from concentrated wealth, and by extension from the State, somewhat poorly, especially when you also consider how much state money opera receives globally.

Joe said...

So because certain popular entertainments are (partially) supported by govt subsidies, it follows that these entertainments wouldn’t exist without government subsidies? What? I don’t know about opera, but I find it hard to believe that the owners of successful sports teams couldn’t afford to build stadiums on the revenues they get from advertising and ticket sales. Subsidies for stadiums just proves that rich sports team owners would rather pass off some of the expense of building stadiums onto the local taxpayer, rather than absorb the full cost themselves. I mean, why pay for something yourself when you can get your friendly neighborhood legislature to force other people to do it for you. This is how “free enterprise” works.

IOZ said...

I also do cocaine. It receives a lot more state money than the Opera. I ride my bicycle on paved roads. Etc.

Having been so often accused of pedantry, I didn't think I needed, once again, to make the totally obvious point that we are all implicated in the systems that we critique. We eat food from factory farms, despite the CSA we happily belong to, and we use electricity. When we get sick, we go to the hospital. I support my public libraries. And so on.

Operatchik said...

As anon 3:25 suggests, this is just baiting of non-anarchists.
...
So they're essentially forced to say: I'm glad he did it, but he needs to be punished.

- anon 4:05

'I never meant to injure her. I deceived you afterwards - and that led on to worse; but I thought it was forced upon me, I thought it was the best thing I could do.
...
But I was all wrong from the very first, and horrible wrong has come of it.'

- Adam Bede

Forced? Props to IOZ and Elliot for slamming that notion - shit is and always will be a choice. If anything be just, it is "baiting of non-anarchists". Also, stateless societies will have awesome operas, just yinz wait.

Anonymous said...

We eat food from factory farms, despite the CSA we happily belong to, and we use electricity. When we get sick, we go to the hospital. I support my public libraries. And so on.

I couldn't agree more. I was just responding to the merits of your 'as a minor corrective' passage, which suggested that Opera is not, in fact, implicated.

Anonymous said...

Forced? Props to IOZ and Elliot for slamming that notion - shit is and always will be a choice.

Forced by the illogic of their convictions, dipshit.

Anonymous said...

The army man is not the ISSUE here, Dude.

Anonymous said...

I think Anne Rice had the final word on this subject:

Lestat, c'est moi ...

Anonymous said...

FUCK Anne Rice got the last word?

Coach Outlet Online said...

We are the last word on all your luxury needs at a deep discount.

Christopher M said...

I was just responding to the merits of your 'as a minor corrective' passage, which suggested that Opera is not, in fact, implicated.

Most human institutions from large-scale agriculture onwards are probably implicated.

Anonymous said...

we are all implicated in the systems that we critique. We eat food from factory farms, despite the CSA we happily belong to, and we use electricity. When we get sick, we go to the hospital. I support my public libraries.

Awesome. IOZ demolishes his own model of the state.

Most human institutions from large-scale agriculture onwards are probably implicated.

Exactly.

la Rana said...

Yeah IOZ! Doncha know you are undermining your model of the state?!

demize! said...

Because we are anarchists means we should be asethics?

Anonymous said...

1.) Organized resistance is, by definition, futile...you will just become the oppressor.
2.) Unorganized resistance is, by definition, farcical.

Therefore: To live is to be oppressed. Realization of this status is freedom.

If you want to hit the golf ball left, aim right. A bit more vermouth in that martini, please.

--the real Donny

stillnotking said...

The genius of democracy is that it allows people like Matt Yglesias to pose the question "What should we do with Bradley Manning?", and never realize how ridiculous it is.

'We'? Manning isn't tied up in your basement, MattY. The state will do with Manning whatever it damn well pleases, and don't pretend that anything would cause you to withhold one iota of your consent & submission.

Anonymous said...

THAT, was well said

Anonymous said...

As a Communist I probably should know how Anarchists define the State (big S), but I'm fuzzy on that. Are Goldman and Shell Oil and Merril Lynch and Et Al part of "The State?"

Enron said...

'Are Goldman and Shell Oil and Merril Lynch and Et Al part of "The State?"'
Yes.

Anonymous said...

In that case, Opera is definitely a state- and empire-supported activity and always has been.

Face it, your ideology is totally incoherent. Nyah!

stillnotking said...

Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, dude, at least it's an ethos.

Anonymous said...

@Enron

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

@annonymous@8:06

can you be a little more clear on what the hell your talking about please

sienna_skin said...

Brad (nipped in the very bud of his mercenary career) will get his dose of injustice like the rest of us; it might hurt more or look worse but it won't be categorically unique to the kid's condition. The point is to, by all means, take Wiki"leaks" seriously as a source of naughty info. Forget the material freely available all over the Internets (some of it published 30,40 or 50 years ago and with as much "corroboration" and primary sourcing as Wikidumps) that is orders-of-magnitude more "damaging" (if people gave a fck, or hadn't been brainwashed effectively into only believing state-sanctioned critiques of the State) than what Wiki"leaks" offers.

Real whistle-blowers in this milieu tend to be killed/suicided/discredited before more than a few hundred people have heard of them. No?

Anonymous said...

Jets "outsmart" Steelers (???). How is that possible? The Jets have no brains.

Another small bucket, please.

--the Real Donny

Kevin Egan said...

As an occasional visitor, I totally prefer IOZ's anarchism (or anti-stateism, or anti-technocracy, or whatever it is) to any state I see out there--and I mean including Sweden! I used to idealize Sweden, and now look at it!

However, I prefer one utopian model to IOZ's anti-system: Ronald Dworkin's Equality of Resources. Justice and Mercy reconciled, via progressive taxes and actuarial statistics on the products of hard work, talent, and aesthetic choices....Hell of a good world next door, let's go! Here's a link, though you need a library subscription (sorry, we're still in Kansas):

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2265047

The opera would flourish everywhere under Equality of Resources, by the way: talk about Utopian!

Leonard said...

When I hear "equality" I reach for my revolver. (Much less "Equality". A new God for a new age. Please keep your religion in your home and church.)

imbroglioh said...

Chiming in at the right time:

http://imbroglioh.blogspot.com/2010/12/crime-and-punishment-fn1.html

Anonymous said...

Awesome. Leonard hearts The State!

Coach Outlet said...

The motets (BWV 225-230) would be terrific.