Most legal scholars agree that the nation’s founders intended to separate the power to decide to initiate a war from the power to carry it out. But ever since the Korean War, presidents of both parties have ordered military action without Congressional authorization.I am glad that the Rands père et fils and some other congresscreatures are questioning Th'Obama's executive action here, but I find these appeals to the Constitution as a sort of biblical font of moral virtue--Is it right? Is it just? Let's ask the CONSTITUTION!--to be basically preposterous. Like, I sit on the board of a little non-profit in Pittsburgh, and if I take to the rooftop and start picking off employees of the non-profit down the street with a high-powered rifle, the question will not be whether or not I properly called the question under the bylaws. This sort of proceduralism is all fine and well, but it obscures the larger question of whoever gave any of us the authority to go kill people, regardless of the political and philosophical affinities we may believe ourselves to have with one or other faction in a conflict. It is very easy to be lulled by the assumed democratic aspirations of the Libyan rebels, but this seems to lead some to presume that America is not Alden Pyle, but Robert Jordan--perhaps a distinction without a difference, since both of them, in the end, and horribly for everyone, failed.
The divergence between presidential practice for the past 60 years and the text and history of the Constitution makes it hard to say whether such action is lawful, scholars say. “There’s no more dramatic example of the ‘living Constitution’ than in this area,” said David Golove, a New York University law professor
-The Times
Tuesday, March 22, 2011
The Killing Constitution
Labels:
Constitutional Crisis,
Libya,
Obama,
War What Is It Good For
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
33 comments:
Someone on another blog made a reasonable point that Congress has declared war only once, in 1812. All those other Congressional resolutions, even in World War II, were simply a statement that the United States was already at war (because we were attacked). And the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and the Authorization to Use Military Force in the Gulf both fit within this tradition.
And whatever action the US is involved with in Libya is not that different from what Reagan and Jefferson did.
This might be another case where some outrage happens, and people think it is unconstitutional, but actually if you look at the document it is perfectly legitimate and worst has happened in the past.
The 18th century Framers would probably have been more shocked at the large size of the standing military.
Yeah, these complaints about the constitutionality of such and such war or military act or whatever are really like criticizing the Rodney King cops for swinging like a girl.
I saw a CNN talking head the other day complaining because anti-war arguments are too simple and straightforward, while pro-war arguments are necessarily complex, hypothetical, and subtle. He seemed to regard this as a terrible, inexplicable bias that we all must guard against.
"This sort of proceduralism is all fine and well, but it obscures the larger question of whoever gave any of us the authority to go kill people"
No, it doesn't. You can raise both points. They're not mutually exclusive. Now, if anyone wants to get really radical and go all Lysander Spooner on the Constitution, hey, I'm with 'em, but holding the state to its own fucking rules is the least our elected representatives can do. And it's probably the most we can hope for, for the time being.
The subtleties of a cruise missile. I can dig it.
Whoa! Stop the presses! Representative democracy isn't functioning as it's supposed to. I think I'll go write my congresscritter forthwith.
Wavy Gravy (hippie activist) said, no doubt many times but I read it in the Washington Post (at a time when Daddy Bush was president)
"As I told my mirror this morning, it's all done with people"
[a variation on a saying about magic, "it's all done with mirrors"]
that is to say, The Constitution (upon whom be peace) neither forbids nor enjoins any action, except and inasmuch as actual persons do or don't do something
"There is no Law, there is only Power"
My favorite thing about "Constitutionalists" is their willful ignorance of the Articles of Convention. I'd be redfaced and duncecap'd if I were so lacking in intellectual rigor!
"that is to say, The Constitution (upon whom be peace) neither forbids nor enjoins any action, except and inasmuch as actual persons do or don't do something"
OK, then why bitch about people using the Constitution, malleable as it is, to try to stop a war? Why complain about people using whatever mirrors are handy? Do you blame defendants for taking advantage of "technicalities" because you think the "justice system" sucks? Find something worse to condemn.
yeah yeah yeah, but you are presupposing that the constitution is a random collection of arbitrary rules, wholly detached from moral principles. As the constitution is the most thorough institutionalization of enlightenment principles the world has yet seen, thats trite bunk.
Worse, what is all this "authority" business? Do you propose that if someone gave us "the authority to go kill people" wrong becomes right? If not, then what are you saying?
Those who are solely concerned about traducing the limitations of the constition are grasping but one tree in the forest, fo- shizzle, but you're just hanging on to a different one.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Am I on the wrong thread?
This was not a good analogy.
I am not sure how the codification of enlightenment principles is supposed to be somehow dispositive one way or other on the moral question of killing Africans for our best interests and their own good, except insofar as you might argue that those principles, personified, would favor it. As to authority, maybe I could've written right instead. I do not mean it in the legalistic sense of UN Resolution blah blah blah.
The Times history isn't very good, the first time an American prez went around congress to wage war was when we got involved in the Boxer rebellion.
Well first, in this case abiding by the condification of enlightenment principles makes it very difficult to kill Africans for our best interests or their own good. If you go by the founders, that was the point.
Second, what gives us the right is the principle of defense of others, which is pretty compelling as far as moral theories go.
The point I have been making over at Crispy's house-of-anarchy-and-sometimes-bombing-shit is that defense of others is thoroughly unpersuasive in the context of "humanitarian" interevention to stop people within a country from killing one another.
And third, its about time we had some better fucking hecklers around here.
la_rana knows that IOZ likes it a little rough.
I'm just 32 but I'm old enough to remember when red faced, crotchety great-uncle types were against this sort of thing on the entirely understandable grounds that they didn't think Libya was worth a squirt of their piss. Now it seems they've been talked out of that and tend to obfuscate about the deficit and such as reasons for not supporting this or that adventure rather than forthrightly stating that they don't give a shit about foreigners. Question: Is this good or bad?
The legal authority to murder people with rockets is wholly interpreted to fit the interests of the businesses who profit from it. Stop.
Discussions about the legality of unprovoked, unauthorized use of military force gives the well-educated something to do while the deal is going down.
This sort of proceduralism is all fine and well, but it obscures the larger question of whoever gave any of us the authority to go kill people
"Authority"? What do you want, a God to command us, "GO DEFEND LIBYAN CIVILIANS"? But you've already confessed your atheism. What earthly "authority" could possibly satisfy you? We know the answer: none. Why even mention it?
We have the power to kill people. The question is if, when, and how we use that power. This is true for even for individuals; it is of great moment for USG. The Constitutional requirements, paper though they be, represent an attempt to limit the use of power. Feeble they are. But nonetheless hardly preposterous.
Yeah, fuck all these people talking about the Constitution:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/03/22/please-cut-the-crap/
John Cole is the biggest retard on the internet.
lolwhen I get run off the road and the driver doesn't stop and I expire in a ditch I sure the fuck hope they get the driver and cite him for speeding! LOL! oh noes the Constitushunz run amok! maybe we can drop the Constitution on that evil Qaddafi! lol!
Someone forgot James K. Polk
Leonard does make a point.
When Atheists talk like there is some singular, Platonic natural law of right and wrong which can come down from the mountainside and guide us...guide us in the right decision...that doesn't always work very well.
Sometimes proceduralism...and always skepticism about the claims of power and nationalism...is all we have left.
Sometimes proceduralism...and always skepticism about the claims of power and nationalism...is all we have left.
Bravo, Rep. Kucinich!
By the way... why did you stop when Conyers said "stop," after you said you wanted to bring down Bush & Cheney? Did you want to bring them down, or did you just want to give the appearance of that?
Viva process! Viva futility!
I often wonder why my leftist comrades never speak of how this "country" was founded in genocide and how we all live on stolen land. In fact, everyone seems to be allergic to the notion and argue with me.
American Dream? What is that exactly? Casinos? Pine Ridge? A chance to have a Mcmansion?
What the fuck is it? I really want to know.
Kucinich? Are you kidding me? I used to think highly of him until he took a plane ride with Obama, and came away with some kind of bullshit about health care.
P.S. Ron Paul is a racist. Google it. It's very easy.
Anyway, I'm calling Karma as a bitch.
Oh right, I forgot this choice phrase:
it obscures the larger question of whoever gave any of us the authority to go kill people
Lol. Ron Paul is a racist. Barack Obama is a torturing murderer.
IOZ: right. And therefore Paul is far worse than Obama.
Congrats, IOZ, you've reached the same conclusion on "process" as Digby:
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/humanitarians-r-us-its-label-not-policy.html
John Cole: So stupid that he can't draw the obvious conclusions that FUCKING DIGBY can draw from this whole fiasco!
the Rands père et fils
it's the Pauls. Or the R(o|a)nd?s.
I don't know, Charles. I will confess I overstated my case.
I'll go hide in my Kuncinich Hole now.
Post a Comment