Tuesday, January 03, 2012

Fandi Fictor Optimus Prime

Steven Pinker's book, The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Research Assistants Can Help to Transform a Slight, 5,000-word College Essay on a Topic of Modestly Malcolm-Gladwellian Counterintuitive Interest into a Tome, is long, wrong, and yet strangely endearing.  It begins by explaining that Homeric epics and the Old Testament, despite being fiction, demonstrate the empirically undeniable violence of the days of yore, which is rather like some distant, almond-eyed historian-descendant of the present human race telepathically informing a galaxy full of Stapledonian Last Men that twentieth-century humanity was indisputably overrun by immense extraterrestrial robots capable of transforming themselves into tractor-trailers and boomboxes due to the fictional, but nonetheless, you know, representative historical poetry of one Michael Bay.  The rest of the book is devoted to confusing incidence with prevalence and both with averages and everything, everything with percentages; Cain killing Abel being statistically worse than the Ukranian famine, that sort of thing.  It's completely preposterous and really sort of fun, an Indiana Jones adventure for the bored intellectual--a bunch of Rube Goldberg setups for impossible derring-do that delights through the sheer force of its own naivete.  A lark, really.  I run the risk of plagiarizing David Bentley Hart here; a kind reader forwarded me Hart's review, and that was the spark that actually got me to read the whole doorstop.  "But there is also something exhilarating about this fideist who thinks he is a rationalist."  Great stuff, the whole of it.

I found myself asking the same question I find myself asking whenever I come across the old IQ-surveys-prove-niggaz-iz-stupid brigade, which is: to what end, this knowledge?  I mean, even presuming against all evidence, for the sake of argument alone, that the bullshit is true.  Black people are dumb as a demographic which validates that their subordinate position within the body of our society is no one's fault but their own eugenic heritage ergo oh well let them play basketball what are you gonna do it could be worse?  Sure World War II sucked but would you rather get raped by a Mongol?  It attempts, I suppose, to run a subtle epistemological alchemy whereby Hobbes is transmuted from philosophy into scientific theory, the sort of project that has the flinty odor of a crackpot undergrad fresh from the latest Timothy Ferris joint trying to explain to his comp lit cohort that string theory proves Derrida correct.    Why go to all this trouble tying the modern state up in a sac with a duck, a rat, a witch, and a viper and tossing it in the drink just to see if it floats?  Perhaps in a more ancient time that sort of thing would be admissible in court; to us, it's just a bit of kooky antiquity.

The answer, I think, is in rearranging our own critical faculties, you'll pardon the expression, to see Pinker's writing within the proper context, which is to say: industry writing.  It isn't exactly apologia, and it's not quite panegyric; it belongs to the same genre that arrives in your office, printed on that weirdly too-thick glossy stock, bearing articles with titles like "How Joe Zlotknik of Bumnass Industries Is Revolutionizing the Way You Think about Industrial Lubricant" or "Kineticrux ASGD CEO Viktor Baffleman on the Seventh Sigma"--it all has a certain PowerPoint coherence, a set of texts and images dutifully assembled and carefully put together in a slideshow, the language a slightly deranged adaptation of Journalese, studious objectivity overlaid with the manic desperation of a fading line of cocaine.  This shit is churned out by the long ton each year by our universitarians and their pop-sci counterparts, but usually you just ignore it or toss it in the office recycling bin.  Oh, is that Jared Diamond telling me not to cut down all the trees on my island?  Yeah, I'm gonna go pretend that I'm waiting for a fax for an hour or two.  But Pinker, man, he's pulled off the real trick.  That smiling face on the cover of Electronic Catheter Quarterly is your own asshole CFO; that glowing company profile, that's your bullshit company, where you work . . . and you feel, though you hate this fucking job, hate these assholes, goddamnit, fucking Janet in Finance and that bitch Louise in HR and Chuck, that fat jag who never cleans out the microwave in the kitchenette, you feel, inexplicably, a kind of vicarious, joyful pride to belong.

149 comments:

what the Tee Vee taught said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Leonard said...

Well that was the most incoherent thing you've written in a long time.

To what end, knowledge? Really? Truth is interesting in its own right. Unfortunately, that is an aesthetic judgment. If you don't get it, then I can't explain it.

Another reason why people want to know the truth is that the truth is inescapably related to morality. All statements of "ought" or "should" founder if they take the form "true should be false". Thus, Pinker's book is an answer to the question: should we concerned about crime? His answer is: No. We're getting nicer. See? The post-1960 crime explosion you think you know about is all in your head. At worst, it's a statistical fluxuation. World's getting better! Nothing to see here. Move along.

Now, if you really are a person without morality, so that you really do believe that the world is fine as it is; that nothing ought to be changed -- then, yeah, I can see why you wouldn't care whether or not "IQ-surveys-prove-niggaz-iz-stupid" or whether intrapersonal violence has really declined.

But I tend to think you aren't. In any case, Pinker isn't.

Enron said...

"Well that was the most incoherent thing you've written in a long time."

Monsieur was not arguing on the attractiveness of truth, but that Pinker just assembled random scraps from the historical recycling bin to fit his, ahem, thesis. Lay off the blue dream Leonard- seriously.

Leonard said...

Blue dream?

Anonymous said...

Ahahahahaha. As soon as I saw that bit about IQ tests, I hurried in here to see if Leonard took the bait. Damn, he's fast.

Leonard said...

Nony, that wasn't taking the bait. Taking the bait would look like, oh, this. Go sear your eyeballs. Happy, now?

Aeolus said...

Actually it seems clear that Hobbes was writing scientific theory, hence the Ramist diagram and all the allusions to Harvey and Galileo. Take another look at the first few chapters of the Leviathan.

Otherwise this is all hip but not very perceptive-- speculative popular science is a genre with conventions, but corporate writing is a different genre with conventions and rigorous demographic analysis, say, is a still different genre with conventions. Pinker is no Barbara Cartland, but he ain't BobJJ123, either.

Anonymous said...

The intersection of the IOZ crowd and Nation liberalism predictably includes Pinker hatred. What a crashingly conventional iconoclasm you have going here.

Professor Coldheart said...

Only in the study of "human biodiversity" does the pursuit of truth qua truth take on such a lofty sheen. Medicine we pursue to ease human suffering; economics, to alleviate scarcity (or accumulate wealth); history, to uncover the narrative in human affairs, etc. Every branch of science, social or physical, has some (purported) greater end. But not HBD! Not the oh-so-solidly-documented differences in IQ between phenotype! Oh, no, you're not implying anything; you're just submitting facts to a candid world.

"Truth is interesting in its own right." What's on your bedstand, Leonard, the minutes of the last Calumet County PTA meeting?

Inkberrow said...

Haven't read the Pinker book, but I do feel curiously reassured concerning Al Gore and anthropogenic climate change. Ah, convenient truths....

Anonymous said...

thanks for the link leonard; that was like the funniest thing i read all day ...

"race is genetic" really? the categorization of race is a genetic (pre?)disposition????

great stuff.

(this is a different anon)

Anonymous said...

actually, this was my favorite line:

"• 2.4 times higher to go to prison at some point"

so the higher incarceration rates of blacks is due to their lower iq. and all this time i thought it was just racism.

mistah charley, ph.d. said...

Of course we have all heard of Stapledon's Last and First Men, even if we haven't yet fulfilled our intention to read it all the way through. However, we may be less cognizant that he lectured in philosophy, English literature, industrial history and psychology, and wrote many non-fiction books on political and ethical subjects, in which he advocated the growth of "spiritual values", which he defined as those values expressive of a yearning for greater awareness of the self in a larger context ("personality-in-community").

la Rana said...

In this year of our lord, two-thousand-and-twelve, I give thanks for the anon who triumphantly declares that he came here to find what he expected to find, which is called conventional.

Huh? No, what the fuck are you... I'm not... We're talking about unchecked aggression here, dude.

High Arka said...

Very good. This one recently ran across some relatives extolling the virtues of Pinker, and responded as such: http://higharka.blogspot.com/2011/12/in-which-voltaire-dies-for-1-millionth.html

Of course, going beyond the massive inaccuracies of Pinker to ask why is an even more difficult step for some to take, but ya gotta start somewhere.

Gabe Ruth said...

Monsieur, you've outdone yourself. Doesn't Pinker also derive some meaning from prehistoric forensics? Would that makes the thesis more, or less, risible?

Leonard, you really need to relinquish your dream of race realism returning peace and prosperity to the republic, or whatever the hell you're trying to do pushing it here. I write as an agnostic on the subject, but am with the Monsieur on the policy question that comes after all the biology questions are answered. That this limited assault on your hobby horse causes you to call the whole thing incoherent shows your small mindedness.

Off topic, what do you think of your boy Wilkinson almost making it official and all but taking the name of his masters?

http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2012/01/why-im-not-a-bleeding-heart-libertarian/

I've never followed him that closely, but I would bet a fair amount that there are plenty of cats that he has been "affiliated" with that should have caused alot more internal conflictedness than the good doctor.

fish said...

The most useful post on Pinker here. Hint: drag and drop feces to the face.

Freddie said...

Thanks for this.

Karl Franz Ochstradt said...

When I was a little kid, my younger brother and I used to spend a lot of time at our grandparents' house. They had a Boston Terrier dog that was a male and in its youth, typically randy (as are all young male dogs I guess) and prone to leg-humping etc. On one occasion the pupster got over-excited and his willie came unsheathed.

You know what my brother called the dog's unsheathed willie?

His "pinker."

I shit you not.

weaver said...

Pinker is an extremely good example of what reductionism - that unending academic turf-war - will do to an otherwise agile mind. It ain't pretty.

Anonymous said...

There's no reason to wait for the positive neurobiology, the smoking gun that will finally make you equalitarians give up your librul fictions. We're justified in believing HBD ex ante. Evolutionary considerations and empirical observation make it clearly the way to bet.

And "to what end this knowledge"? I can't believe this is a serious question. I love it how libtards suddenly are afflicted with a fear of enlightenment empiricism when it threatens to demolish their fictive articles of faith. "Oh, wait! Not my precious pagan idols of equality!" That's why they call you liberal creationists. You've show no such quarter to religious. And none will be shown you. In your exuberant eagerness to embrace Darwin, you've unwittingly taken fire into your bosom.

The massive cognitive dissonance this will precipitate is going to be a thing of beauty. I will enjoy the fireworks.

Gabe Ruth said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gabe Ruth said...

Anon 10:18 (and presumably 5:58 also),
Way to go! Sounds like you're ahead of the game and about to reap all the benefits...
Are you expecting reparations on behalf of white and Asian victims of discrimination, or will the sweet victory of truth be enough to make you happy?

Enron said...

"There's no reason to wait for the positive neurobiology."

I agree. I say enslave white people for a couple of generations, in order to subject them to cognition tests developed at Howard. Then the stupidity of those pasty-ass crackers will be scientifically proven once and for all, with a test.

TGGP said...

Professor Coldheart, a great deal of academia consists of publishing things of no relevance to anything at all and whose only possible justification (other than it's a job and we've got to publish something) is functionalism-free love of truth. And "truth" is stretching it with theory papers that merely find implications of premises that have nothing to do with the actual world. What distinguishes them from "HBD" is that they don't have a similar body of criticism. Both "HBD" and Pinker's theories on violence, along with many other ideas that for our purposes we can categorize under "social science" have real implications beyond "so what". Human minds specialize in thinking about other humans, you don't have to be that big a nerd (relative to math theorists) to find the topics interesting. If you don't need that extra bit to make topics interesting, you can read Terence Tao's blog.

Example implications are whether the recent decline in violence should be regarded as a fluke (as Pinker suggests for the 60s upsurge) and predicted to revert to the mean or whether we should expect it to continue. And since he has ideas on what causes changes in the violence level that has implications for how we might act to lower it. Or increase it, if that's your bag.

There was initially hope that genetic research would find genes for certain desired traits (finding deleterious mutations is easier, though if you're a deaf parent who wants a deaf kid it's another story). We've made a lot of progress in certain superficial traits, but those aren't the contentious bits of hereditarianism. First height had a GWAS showing it to be significantly heritable (as twin-adoption studies predicted) and massively polygenic, Deary has recently found the same for IQ, I expect researchers will start doing the same for personality and we'll see how that turns out. That polygenism makes it difficult to actually identify the genes, but not impossible. Thanks to Moore's Law computational genetics has advanced dramatically in recent years. I expect "designer babies" to take off not too far into my lifetime, starting with the traits closest to the simple Mendelian model and advancing toward the extremely polygenic in the more distant future. In the shorter term, more accurate measurements of relevant factors like genetics will help us to find where "environmental" interventions are most effective, perhaps even beginning to tailor them for more specific genotypes (as is a current goal in medicine). And since a huge factor escaping conventional "nature" vs "nurture" breakdowns is unpredictable "noise", I'll add that it's not going to remain dark matter.

I haven't said anything here about whether "race" is a scientifically valid concept. I hope that's not the end-all-be-all of "HBD", it's less interesting than the broader scientific revolution happening under our noses. But there are already officially designated racial groups and race is a politicized topic. If that hadn't been the case, a lot of this would be a lot simpler. But eventually science will reach the point where we'll feel awfully stupid about the energy wasted in arguments under a condition of ignorance.

Compound F said...

As I read it, you played Pascal's payoff matrix with Pinker (worth reading/not worth it X bought book/not bought) and the payoff was "semper fi, Decepticons!" in all four quadrants. That's good enough for me. I am going to tell people I read it too.

TGGP said...

I should have prefaced my comment by saying that "who cares" is a fine response, and if you don't care you have better things to spend your time on. I didn't know how long it would get until I wrote most of it. If you want to respond without threadjacking or annoying others here (has that ever been a concern here?), I've cross-posted it at my own blog and you can head over there.

la Rana said...

I dunno bout y'alls, but I've definitely show no quarter to religious. Equality is a normative moral principle, 10:18, not a biological one. You didn't actually think that "all men are created equal" was a claim about physiology, did you? It's like you've taken to the internet to prove that Obama is not, in fact, the living embodiment of the change you can believe in.

The Promiscuous Reader said...

But there are already officially designated racial groups and race is a politicized topic.

The trouble is, TGGP, those "officially designated racial groups" keep changing, which is only to be expected, because "race" has always been a politicized topic. Besides, there is no official qualified to "officially" designate such groups.

Hey, IOZ, didja see Andrew Sullivan's recent slog through those same troubled waters?

And in answer to la Rana's question: Yes, they do. They really do think that "All men are created equal" means that everybody is supposed to be alike. See the position vivisected here.

PR said...

@anon; What makes you think IOZ readers are 'liberals'?

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

http://lackadaisicals.blogspot.com/2012/01/42-divided-by-2-equals.html

Leonard said...

Coldheart, I'll second anon and TGGP in mocking your hilarious special pleading of 5:59. All knowledge is highly useful except for knowledge about human genetics? What possible use could come of that? Obviously people's genes have nothing to say about anything, except that minor bit about who they are. Meanwhile, people are interested in Saturn because... um... why, exactly? And what about mathematics? Subatomic physics? Do you really believe that proving the existence of the Higgs boson will make the slightest difference in anything? And yet: 7.5 billion euros.

Gabe Ruth: what "policy question"? But anyway, I called IOZ's post here incoherent not because it attacks race realism (which it does only incidentally). I called it that because it is all over the place. IOZ doesn't tell you what he is criticizing (viz: the idea that the state has tamed humanity) before launching into his sarcastic attack on the idea. You have to read it several times to even get a hint of what IOZ is saying, and in fact I don't think you can understand it without already knowing what Pinker's book is about.

Since you ask, having Will Wilkinson declare for the enemy is not surprising in the slightest. The man clearly wants power more than he's willing to stick to any pesky principles -- or more relevantly, to articulate any truths deemed crimethink within our liberal society. (Here he is cheering for PC.)

la Rana, equality is not just a normative moral principle. Our legal standard for discrimination is "disparate impact", particularly, the 80% rule. Collectively, blacks are assumed to be on average the productive equal of whites; therefore any substantial disparate impact on hiring is assumed to be racism unless proven otherwise. This is equality codified into the law.

Anonymous said...

don't we all inherently and selectively process, consume and/or regurgitate information according to our own worldview, skewing that worldview or the input slightly when necessary to maintain self-superiority in our own worldview?

i know i do.

Mr.Fundamental said...

I have a good friend in the East. A good singer, and a good folksinger, a good
song collector, who comes and listens to my shows and says, "You sing a lot
about the past. You always sing about the past; you can't live in the past,
you know." And I say to him, "I can go outside and pick up a rock that's older
than the oldest song you know and bring it back here and drop it on your foot."
Now, the past didn't go anywhere, did it? It's right here, right now - I
always thought that anybody who told me I couldn't live in the past was trying
to get me to forget something that if I remembered it would get 'em in serious
trouble.

No, it's not that - that "that's Fifties, Sixties, Seventies, Nineties" - that
whole idea of decade packages. Things don't happen that way... No, that, that
packaging of time is a journalistic convenience that they use to trivialize and
to dismiss important events and important ideas.

I defy that.

Professor Coldheart said...

anon @11:10: hear hear!

Leonard: I'm funning with you because you're acting like your interest in some sort of objective, documentable, see-it's-not-us difference between races is clearly without an agenda, whereas the ivory tower that's (gasp) suppressing HBD as "crimethink" has an agenda to promote. When in reality both sides do.

la Rana said...

Leonard, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to face the fact you're a goddamn moron.

A) Normative moral principles are sometimes the basis of law. As is the case here.

B) No quantity of transparent droppings from wikipedia can change that, or hide the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about (disparate impact is not "the legal standard for discrimination," the 80% rule is not a legal standard of any type, no ethnoracialsex is assumed to be a productive anything, codified has a slightly different legal meaning that you don't comprehend, and the fact that the law reflects the normative moral principle of equality means absofuckinglutely nothing that is of help your ignorant babbling).

I think you have to be IOZs sock-puppet. No real person is both this incompetent and so unaware of that fact.

Ashley said...

Ruthless...

Kudos.

mistah charley, ph.d. said...

Olaf Stapledon: Speaking for the future
Robert Crossley

Syracuse University Press, 1994 - Literary Criticism - 474 pages

William Olaf Stapledon is best remembered for the extraordinary works of speculative fiction he published between 1930 and 1950. As a novelist, he was known as the spokesman for the Age of Einstein and has influenced writers as diverse as Virginia Woolf, Arthur C. Clarke, and Doris Lessing. This biography is the first to draw on a vast body of unpublished and private documents - interviews, correspondence, archival material, and papers in private hands - to reveal fully the internal struggles that shaped Stapledon's life and reclaim for public attention a distinctive voice of the modern era. Late in his life in an unpublished "letter to the future" Stapledon unwittingly provided the rationale for his biography: "It is just possible that my very obscurity may fit me to speak more faithfully for my period than any of its great unique personalities". A pacifist in World War I, an advocate of European unity and world government, one of the first teachers in the Workers' Educational Association, and an early protestor against apartheid, Stapledon turned utopian beliefs into practical politics. With roots in the shipping worlds of Devon, Liverpool, and the Suez Canal, he was transformed from a self-described provincial on the margins of English literary and political life into a visionary idealist who attracted the attention of scientists, journalists, and novelists, and, given his left-wing political affiliations, even the F.B.I. Stapledon's novels - Last and First Men, Star Maker, Odd John, and Sirius - have gathered a passionate following, and they have seldom been out of print in the last twenty-five years. But the personal experiences and political commitments that shaped this creative work have, until now, barely been known.

Leonard said...

Coldheart, of course I have an agenda. This is because I, like most people, can make very basic deductions from facts. But you are acting as if my agenda conditions my interest in truth, when it is in fact the opposite.

How can we tell the difference? Between a hack and an actual truthseeker for truthssake? Well, it is certainly not ironclad proof, but in general hacks become convinced that the party line of some powerful party is in fact truth. (Viz: Will Wilkinson, link above.) Given that my truthseeking makes me a racist, bigot, and apostate according to your modern American religion of equality (see: Frog), that should be a pretty strong clue that I believe human beings are evolved and diverse not to advance some agenda but because I think it is true. My agenda follows.

Frog, who's ignorant here? You are aware, I hope, of Griggs v. Duke Power? But -- OH NOES! A wiki link! -- evidently you think that because I actually link what I am talking about for the fairminded reader to read for himself, and you don't, shows that you are right. Because of course wikipedia is utterly unreliable except that you and everyone else uses it because it is really quite good.

anne said...

thank you for the utah p. funda. ..i keep reminding others of that all the time .. . in many different ways .. .

Gabe Ruth said...

Froggie, while I find Lenny's pre-occupation with the USG's race obsession amusing (as if this was it's greatest fault, the end of which would usher in a new Golden Age for the republic or something), that obsession is demented and the resulting policies are counter-productive, creating a negative sum racial spoils system. Which is not to say that it's easy to be black in this country, or that the apocryphal welfare queens are what ails this country. In my more self-righteous moments I imagine that federal policy is more completely responsible for the dysfunction of minority communities than is intellectually defensible, but I am certain at all times that it doesn't help.

Also, calling him a moron isn't really fair. He comes right out and says that he had to read the post several times to understand it. There's not alot left to be said on the subject. I'm just sad that everyone here associates him with Moldbug.

TPR, do you have a Cliff Notes version of that link? 'Cuz otherwise, TL;DR, assumed to be a straw man on the basis of your intro.

la Rana said...

oh dear. sweetie. the thing about wikipedia was that you did not use a link, but rather than you clearly just lifted some language from the page and passed it off as your own knowledge.

But yes, wikipedia can direct you (and us!) to a case decided in 1971 that enforced the portion of title VII of the civil rights act that prohibits actions that have a discriminatory impact even without evidence of a discriminatory intent. What wikipedia did not tell you was: (1) that discriminatory impact is only one of many "legal standards" related to race discrimination established in the civil rights act and dozens of SCOTUS and Circuit Court decisions; (2) that the 80% rule you so obviously lifted from the wikipedia page in your last post is not a legal standard in the sense you thought; (3) that the courts have been chipping away at Griggs and the discriminatory impact standard for the last 40 years; or (4) that SCOTUS substantially revised, if not outright overturned it (in practice), in Ricci v. DeStefano in 2009.

Admit it IOZ, the gig is up.

High Arka said...

Karl, this one thinks that, a la "spreading santorum," that term should now become part of our living language. Like all the johns out there who keep getting named after toilets,* pinkers should share in the bounty of their predecessor's brutal apologia.

* Granted, better to be named after a toilet than a British royal, but then, a "John" is named after both of those things.

Michael Dawson said...

The big question about Pinker: toupe or world's worst haircut? I lean toward the latter.

Either way, it's pretty clearly an attempt to self-advertise his Einsteinian genius.

Inkberrow said...

Michael Dawson---

I think neither. Pinker dresses his hair with anal sex-foam, like Leo Sayer did.

Professor Coldheart said...

This is because I, like most people, can make very basic deductions from facts.

Name five black friends of yours.

The big question about Pinker: toupe or world's worst haircut? I lean toward the latter.

True story: Steven Pinker jogged past me as I was leaving work this summer. His hair was even poofier than usual in the June humidity. I did a double take at his sweat-streaked Van de Graaff, then a triple take at recognizing him as Dr. Steven Pinker. He shied away from me, as if I were about to break the West's 100-year streak of non-violence, using him as an object lesson, but I assure you readers I meant no such thing.

Michael Dawson said...

So, did I learn something today?

santorum (n): the frothy mix of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex, and is also sometimes used as hair gel among Ivy League sociobiologists

High Arka said...

Congratulations! John, Dick, Santorum, and now, Pinker!

Anonymous said...

My name is Richard. It's been statistically proven that Richards average about six IQ points higher than Leonards. TROO FACT. Make of it what you will. Hey, I'm just a truthseeker.

IOZ said...

I'M JUST SPECULATIN ON A HYPOTHESIS!

Michael Dawson said...

Leo Sayer rawks!

Anonymous said...

As IOZ said in this post:

"Beware a philosophy bearing efficiency; all such end with gallows and gas."

Beware any philosophy, such as Leonard's above, about "race-realism" and which race is "better" or has higher IQs, and what-not. They all "end with gallows and gas."

Anonymous said...

"a negative sum racial spoils system"

"he dysfunction of minority communities"

Y'all white supremacists certainly have a way with words, I'll give you that.

How many syllables does it really take to say you loathe black people?

Anonymous said...

My, does 315 reeks of today's political corectness turning bashing 50's political corectness, or what?

Capt'n Obvious

Anonymous said...

Or what.

Anonymous said...

Hey, as long as its political corectness groupthink, it's all good. The purpose of the (moderately well paid) propagandists is to see that' it's the correct One for the time given, then.

Capt'n Obvious

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