So apparently the Congresscritters are trying to pass some kind of MPAA-Murdoch-COC-backed acronym, which has annoyed the internet. I admit I am sort of enjoying it as the old media and the well-capitalized but fundamentally fuddyduddy Chamber discover that oh shit Google is a thing now, but I've got to cop to having no real rooting interest in this payperview cagematch between a bunch of corporate behemoths . . . I guess if you are some kind of liberalprogressive or something you think that Rupert Murdoch is the most evil man in history; meanwhile the Googbook goes right on downloading your brain into its world-devouring personality emulator; copyright does suck, but Total Information is pretty fucking terrifying, and I say this as a person who willfully passes a fair amount of time on the internet.
But look. I am all for the idea that information wants to be free, but youknowmaybe that doesn't just mean free of charge. To consign oneself to a world in which movie downloads are available from eurotorrents while one's entire brain is turned into a proprietary algorithm is a little, um, disheartening. Lemme axe you, which do you think is a bigger infringement on your human liberty, Universal's copyrights, or Google's patents?
165 comments:
I think you're ill-served by your cynicism here, IOZ. Free software and cryptography activists were fighting this battle long before Google came along, and the causes they've championed have borne fruit much sweeter than Google. Like Wikipedia, for instance. Like the ability to choose the software that runs on the computer you paid for. Like TOR, which is the only thing that allows Chinese dissidents access to the rest of the world's information.
For my money, the info-anarchists have been the most successful anarchist movement of the last 50 years. So maybe you could give some props where they're due.
i just clicked on a protest link that'll send a pre-scripted message to congress ... so that'll show them.
but seriously, fuck copy-rights and fuck patents.
oh yeah, and fuck society.
agreed, monsieur. you seem to be following the MPAA line here that this is merely about thieving and not paying. this is about controller the protocols, architecture and tools to make information move (freely or otherwise) not about the content that is created. and like picador said, this was a fight long before the fanboys got excited about it and will be long after.
The whole debate gives me the uncomfortable feeling of being buttonholed at a party and forced to settle an argument between Ray Kurzweil and Michael Eisner.
The internet is not "free" now, will never be "free" in the sense meant by the techno-visionaries. The limits they perceive are in human nature. There are always, pace Gene Roddenberry, going to be rules, and money.
On the other hand, I'd be really annoyed if Congress successfully prevented me from watching funny dog videos, and I know they're fully capable of doing that in order to put smiles on the faces of the people who own Mickey Mouse.
The problem isn't Universal's copyrights, it's the total control of your computer and your life that are nowadays the only possible way to protect them.
Intellectual property is theft.
Holy fuckin shit!
Ya know what just dawned on me?
Here it is.
Ya know how M'sieur is always dissing academia and particularly instant-snoots of higher aggregation?
Well I've always suspected that this is him just puckerin on some sour grapes ...
And what I just realized is that I'm absolutely correct.
Not only is he a wanna-be prof, but he's using this place as his leture hall a la "The Paper Chase".
Like some world-weary John Houseman, he lays down some proposition, implicitly says "Discuss!),and stands back to watch all the eager Timothy Bottoms do what teacher says - venture their opinions.
Tell me I'm wrong about this - go ahead.
Cause I'm not.
Hey, the knowledge that I am a tiny cog working toward Total Information is one of the things that helps me get through the workday. Also, goofing off on the internet. Damn Jimbo for blacking out wikipedia!
You got some weird notions about the Goog. You think they are trying to turn your brain into a proprietary algorithm? Might we at least get a link to know WTF you're talking about?
Anyway, between copyright and patents, patents are always the greater infringement on liberty. This is because there is essentially no chance that I would ever duplicate someone's copyright without copying their work, but I can easily independently invent patented algorithms, like, say using XOR in a graphics buffer, using a linked list on a cellphone! or a multiplayer computer game that works on a network!
IMAGINE A WORLD WITHOUT FREE "What Is Love" is the title of a song recorded by Eurodance artist Haddaway ..
You fools! Being angry about a bad thing! When there is WORSE THING!!!!one!!!1
A specific implementation of a linked list may have been patentable, Leonard, if the examiner thinks that there is true beneficial innovation involving how/where pointers are stored, or some other piece of internal mechanics.
But the concept of "linked list" itself is not patentable, any more than the concept "finite-state machine" or "Markov process".
Seems to me SOPA and PIPA are a good example of how laws are made for the benefit of those who write them and nobody else. The last thing we need is more reactionary poorly written legislation. Does anyone think the giant movie and “music” industry is being hurt? Considering the amount of crap they produce I don’t have any sympathy for them. And it’s like maybe these moguls will have one less Cadillac in their fleet of one hundred because of piracy. Though why anyone would bother to steal their garbage eludes me at the moment.
Tell me I'm wrong about this - go ahead.
You've got to admire the gumption of someone who drops a proposition and says "discuss" in the commission of complaining about somebody dropping a proposition and saying discuss.
Eerily Lackadaisical:
But the concept of "linked list" itself is not patentable, any more than the concept "finite-state machine" or "Markov process".
In theory, you're right. In practice, since Bilski in 2010, the USPTO will allow a claim to "linked lists, implemented by a processor" (assuming the examiner can't find a reference teaching such a thing in the 20 minutes he's allotted for prior art searches for each application that crosses his desk). This isn't just my personal experience; it's also what I've been told by examiners working in the relevant art units at the patent office.
This is not legal advice, you're not my client, etc.
Not only is he a wanna-be prof, but he's using this place as his leture hall a la "The Paper Chase".
Like some world-weary John Houseman, he lays down some proposition, implicitly says "Discuss!),and stands back to watch all the eager Timothy Bottoms do what teacher says - venture their opinions.
So you are just now figuring out blogs?
Open thread. Discuss.
I concur with the first comment.
Hi, an actual programmer here to clear some things up.
Eerily Lackadaisical, you have no idea what you are talking about.
But the concept of "linked list" itself is not patentable, any more than the concept "finite-state machine" or "Markov process".
First, you offer no warrants to back up your claim. Which makes sense, because it isn't true. You can't patent math (in theory, not practice), and a linked list is nothing but an implementation of mathematical principles.
Secondly, your claim in non-nonsensical. How could a linked list not be patentable, but an implementation of it be patentable? A linked list is simply a highly performant implementation of an array, or ordered list, that does not allow random access. Are implementations of arrays patentable? What about implementations of, um, lists?
Lastly (although I could go on), there are patents out there for things like single click purchases. To most programmers I know (and I go to conventions and shit), all software patents are technically illegal. But it doesn't matter, because they get awarded anyways.
And IOZ, oh IOZ...
which do you think is a bigger infringement on your human liberty, Universal's copyrights, or Google's patents?
Way to miss the whole fucking point (also, Google lobbies against software patents, if you care, which you don't).
The point here is government control of the internet. Are we really supposed to abandon our struggle for freedom (which your first commenter correctly pointed out has been going on for decades) because Google joins our side on an issue? Why are you so blind to the activists who have been working on this for longer than I have been alive? Your argument assumes that corporations are the only ones with agency.
And, like EL, your argument is also non-nonsensical. What exactly do Google's patents have to do with DNS filtering and censorship?
Hint: This isn't about Google.
Not that the Google people's ideology isn't creepy as hell and evil (and all the worse because it is sincere). Ioz is right about that. But hey, here we are on blogspot. Yet someday, if this good fight is fought, totally-free systems Richard Stallman would smile upon could be the norm. But if SOPA or similar laws rule, there's no such chance.
Ted -
I can tell you're an "actual programmer" - re-read my post and you'll see that you're arguing against your misconception of it.
Just like you probably do when you're handed a spec.
Remember the old "real programmer's don't" shtick?
Like "Real programmers don't document - if it was hard to write it should be hard to understand."
Here's a new entry in your honor:
"Real programmers never call themselves "actual programmers." "
Forget who is for and against this particular measure.
Sippy Peepa lets corporate behemoths demand delinking, DNS-ignoring and advertiser contract breach, without anything like a court finding copyright infringement has occurred.
And I seriously doubt that if Joe Strummer finds Senator X is using his top, pop rock song, without permission, that anyone will ask anyone for anything.
EL, thanks for responding to the points I brought up.
Oh wait, you didn't. All you did was insult me.
Ted - see Picador's response and then ask yourself how you, unlike him, could have mistaken the thrust of my post.
EL, here is the simpler version, for your simple mind:
If a linked list is not patentable, but an implementation is, then how do you address the fact that a linked list is simply an implementation of an array?
Please note, I never based any claims on my authority as a programmer. I used logic. Try it. It's fun!
EL, the warrants in Picador's argument, backing up yours, consists of the following:
In theory, you're right.
Sorry, but in theory, you are wrong. And I provided actual reasons for that.
I can't believe you are going to continue to insist I misread your post. I read it, understand it, and think you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Not that the Google people's ideology isn't creepy as hell and evil (and all the worse because it is sincere). Ioz is right about that. But hey, here we are on blogspot.
Fuck that shit. The technology of blogspot was already going to happen, with or without google. People were writing and tinkering canned message board software and web site software for years. A canned journal was coming one way or the other. Google gets credit for inventing it, but the earth still spins regardless of gets credit for noticing.
Its the same shit the government pulls, offering to help enhance an existing service and then claiming that without the government said service would never exist. "Hey," others said, "here we are on public airwaves, and without the proper licensing from the government radio-wave transmitting would be impossible, interstate commerce would cease to exist."
Ted - apparently "using logic" = "quibbling" in your lexicon.
Your objection is based on an erroneous conflation of two entirely distinct meanings of the term "implementation".
Picador understood that I meant the term as in "embodiment", not as in "natural consequence of".
Given E.L.'s mien around here of late, I'd say he's less Timothy Bottoms to IOZ's John Houseman than he is Kent from "Real Genius" to IOZ's Professor Hathaway. ("You PROMISED me I'd get a listing on your blogroll!...)
Meanwhile, if there really is a Truth to Power---or Power to Power?---cyber-superlaser out there, I hope it doesn't fall into the wrong hands. I've heard you can't even pull up People of WalMart on ChinaGoogle, let alone JihadWatch.
Hi, an actual member of the ruling elite here to clear some things up.
No one really cares about the general public skimming profits from the entertainment industry. We're using this pretty bland set of concerns in order to determine how you react to explicit control of the world mind.
Yes, there are many ongoing programs to predict group dissent by analyzing your Internet browsing habits. You know this, and so what.
The more basic purpose of the Internet is to slowly modify your epistemological habits into a proto-cyborg state of rapt despair and then meld your minds into a single gooey ball of human thought, into which we shall dip toasted pita triangles while watching a ripped copy of Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
Google lobbies against software patents by holding tens of thousands of them. Lulz. What, you think they bought Motorola cuz RAZR is cool? Maybe you oughta stop programmin' and read the bizinezz pages.
OUR BASIC FREEDOMS!
DON'T WALK AWAY FROM THIS, DUDE!
Well, clearly I can't be opposed to Evil Thing X if Evil Person Y is also opposed to it!
"But look. I am all for the idea that information wants to be free, but youknowmaybe that doesn't just mean free of charge."
Well, no of course not! Free of charge? Hell, no! We need some kind of rules around here! Otherwise, we might end up in some kind of anarchy!
I think some people are literally unable to conceive of power that emanates from elsewhere than government.
I called my rep this morning cause Wikipedia told me to.
And it ain't blocked on your mobile "device."
Justin: Sorry, my comment was poorly phrased. I wasn't talking or thinking about being grateful to Google for providing us with Blogger.
I just meant if per Ioz, Big Google is Evil, and yet we all use it, it behooves us to keep open the possibility of alternatives; which tighter government control of the internet certainly WON'T help, regardless of which side Google itself takes on the issue.
I've worked in the patent heavy industry of biotechnology as a programmer. The shit they got away with patenting that I made was ridiculous. I tried to be invisible, because the way you patent easy and simple to do stuff was get non-referential enough in describing your algorithm. You wouldn't say this is an implementation of a linked list, you would describe the implementation of a linked list in agonizingly boring detail and with enough home made jargon in place of terms like linked list that it sounds new to a patent reader. I wouldn't be surprised if the linked list is patented in about a thousand different ways its been implemented.
Also, Ioz. I agree that this SOPA stuff is more or less a symptom of where we are inevitably going, where ever that may be. I don't really care about it, I wasn't protesting anything so much of the ad hoc logical fallacy of accrediting service to the institution providing it. I figured you would get it since you just had this exact same post about the financial industry quoting Yves...
In other words, I really don't see fighting down SOPA as a significant gain or any sort of way to fight the alignment of interests from government, corporate, academic, and media institutions in gaining control of the internet. If you fall in the spectrum of information should be mostly or totally free and available, significant victories in preventing what's coming are not going to come through blocking or passing legislation.
When Obama, Bill Gates, Norman Schwartzkoph, David Brooks, Bill Keller, and Lars Ullrich are all on one side of an issue, you can bet tremendous force is going to be applied in the long term. Blanking out your blog for a day in protest is not really much of a counter-force.
I also don't see any reason to believe that the point of SOPA is to block out bitching and moaning on blogs. WhoisIoz will still be around 5 years after SOPA passes, just as most of us are still around carping a few years after habeas corpus has become all but a joke. Legislation is only going to be tools to fight things that cost money, such as information leaks like WikiLeaks of corporate and government information, and to prevent use of 'pirated' corporate property. The stuff we are doing here in blogostan is really not a concern, except in so far as to see if anyone can figure out how to make some money on it. See Huffington Post/AOL.
I thought the first comment here was the best.
Google didn't provide us with blogger. Pyra Labs (Evan Williams and some other hackers) did. Google bought Pyra Labs in 2003.
IOZ:
Google lobbies against software patents by holding tens of thousands of them. Lulz. What, you think they bought Motorola cuz RAZR is cool? Maybe you oughta stop programmin' and read the bizinezz pages.
Wow, your basic knowledge of well-known facts sure showed me.
Believe it or not, it is possible to hold patents in order to allow Android to continue to exist in a world dominated by patent law and -- at the same time! -- lobby against software patents, as being illegitimate and harmful to innovation.
And, back to your original point, such as it is: You know who else uses those evil algorithms to determine what you read and talk about? Magazines! And academic journals! And newspapers! Bookstores even!
But really, soul crushing their search engine is.
I'm curious to see how many fawning admirers IOZ can get to agree with this fatuous nonsense he's posted. Better have a doctor look at that jerking knee, IOZ.
Logan,
That makes more sense and is exactly the point I was trying to make in my last comment.
Incidentally, and appropriate of little but I think would fit right in here. I read a great article the other day about a house in Oakland called the Hellarity house. The premise of it was that some anarchists tried to start this anarchist social experiment in Oakland. Most of it read like a Cohen brothers script. The people living in hellarity are very interesting, they seem to take themselves very seriously about starting and maintaining an anarchist social experiment while being otherwise thoroughly integrated into the existing system when the whole point of an anarchist experiment is show that that its possible to exist outside of the system.
You see, you should be giving props to the people who create the technilogies that make the oppression possible because they occasionally leave in back doors through which the oppressed can sporadically complain about the oppression.
Scribble me in with IOZ and Justin - I remember chatting on Prodigy, or using a Compuserve bulletin board, which when archived, looks just like a series of blog posts.
Journaling on "free" material isn't new.
And like NDAA, SOPA is epiphenomena. All the tools of control are already in place. Now just follows the justifications.
IOZ: Google holding many patents shows nothing about their corporate philosophy on patents. All it shows is that Google has responded realistically and responsibly to the rules-that-be, namely: (1) that USG allows the patenting of pretty much any computer code above the most trivial (see Justin, above), and (2) there is no loser-pays or other penalty for filing lawsuits that fail or making threats to engage in such actions, no matter how flimsy the case is. Thus, mega corps all patent everything they can and then cross license with each other. This leaves them free to code as they please while making it difficult for small companies. Crony capitalism disguised as IP law.
When Google starts legally pursuing small companies for patent violations of flimsy bullshit patents of the obvious, then you have a strong argument that they've turned evil.
I still don't know what you are talking about wrt Google patenting your brain.
"Harmful to innovation."
Oh dear.
Yeah, that's right - support for [i]Ioz[/i] is knee-jerk and unthinking, not support for Google. Lord knows nobody makes excuses for Google.
Leonard,
I read IOZ as suggesting that Google's "memory" of a person's internet habits is a mapping of persona which most people could not do for their own selves.
Sort of like the Brits using tracking algorithms to discover that an IRA bomber took an especially long shit every third Thursday - a pattern he didn't know about his own self - and timing his execution appropriately.
Leonard, that was a very good and clear write up of Google and patents.
I still don't know what you are talking about wrt Google patenting your brain.
The reason you don't know is because it doesn't make any sense.
IOZ, that is Google's stance, not mine. And it actually makes a lot more sense than the post these comments are attached to.
I think many of you are missing the point? When Mssr. says "I am all for the idea that information wants to be free, but youknowmaybe that doesn't just mean free of charge," he isn't saying there should be a price. Quite the opposite, right? Like, there is a price, and it is not monetary. Arguments against SOPA, while laudable, are constrained by their fealty to this notion of the internet as some sort of Wild West paradise, when in fact the primary engine of information on the entire web is an enormous machine whose entire method and means is the collation of data such that each person is reduced to a "user" whose life can be plotted on a spreadsheet. This is the "cost," right? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not some patent lawyer capable of arguing the finer points of implementation, but I think the idea is that overturning SOPA doesn't begin to grapple with the totalizing sublimation of identity that is the World Wide Wed as constituted today. Said the Blog Commenter.
Drake Motel ftw
"Harmful to innovation."
As a programmer, I risk getting sued by patent holders any time I do anything. That matters to people who can't afford lawyers.
You might not give a fuck about innovation -- affordable medicine and shit like that -- but you are batshit crazy if you think patents aren't devastating to them.
The Anti-SOPA line reminds me of the recent sentiments: And if only "we" recall Walker and overturn the NDAA, we will get "our" democracy back.
Waste of calories.
Drake + 1
I am all for the idea that information wants to be free, but youknowmaybe that doesn't just mean free of charge
I think it just means that free could have a number of meanings here, only one of which relates to having to pay for it.
the primary engine of information on the entire web
lol
i still jerk off manually
Hi Ted! lol, like, you disagree? Google and/or Facebook are not those things?
You mean coitus?
Correct, I disagree. In fact, I would go so far as to say that there is no "primary engine of information" on the entire web.
But I do agree that Google and Facebook's behavior is atrocious.
Coitus interruptus?
I'm still waiting for the details about the brain algorithm thing. cause I am turning my blog dark if that shit turns out to be true, man.
Not to be a pedant (I'm being a pedant), but I would say Google and Facebook are the two primary sources of internet-information for most people I know.
Drake, to elaborate a little more:
There are more internet users in China than citizens in the US.
There are millions of WordPress and Drupal installs out there.
I would say Wikileaks was one of the most important sources of information on the web recently.
To label anything as the "primary source" of information for the "entire web" is a bit of a stretch. The web is, by its very nature, decentralized.
Although there are a lot of people working very hard to bring that to an end.
The "most people I know" is the important qualifier to your statement, which was missing before.
Hmmm, which response on this will make me seem coolest?
IOZ's brain:
GO WITH THE SINGLE SENTENCE ALL CAPS MOCKERY AS IT IS THE BEST WAY TO AVOID A DEBATE YOU ALREADY LOST.
Ted, the business of Google is to commodify your experiences by tracking what you say or where you haunt on the internet and the kind of stuff you buy. You are not really the concern though, not as an individual, nor is it necessarily important to have your demo. That information about demographics of people like you and others together is where the money is. Correlating interests, outlooks, and buying patterns is easy regression analysis with enough information, but how to get that information is the hard part. Pop-up ads were attempts at flying blind when there was little to no information. The resolution of that problem is the information that Google's patents contains. Ioz's last question in the post is to question whether this complete and total commodification of the individual's experiences are more of an imposition on what it means to be human than having to pay $10,000 to sing Happy Birthday on camera.
I like Cohen bros. movies
this is like the time we were abroad and there was a train strike and instead of taking the train because we had tickets already we rented a car and drove part of the way and then hopped on a bus, and got there anyway. huzzah!
Ok, well, we can just ignore what you said about Wikileaks. I don't think anyone was talking about "important" information. Your point about China is well-taken, but as limited as the demographic of "people I know" is, I am very confident that Facebook and Google are, by an order of significant magnitude, the most-visited sites in these United States. The point I'm making, as Justin elaborates above, is that the pre-SOPA internet is not actually "free," and that fighting government censorship may not be the major victory of human liberty over tyranny that many seem to believe it is.
I really like Etan Cohen's "Dubuque."
Justin,
Thanks. I too am horrified by the commodification of human experience and the massive data mining of our lives.
But, and this is my point, that has nothing to do with internet censorship/DNS filtering and the like.
The first post on this thread hit the nail on the head, with a huge fucking sledgehammer. I have been working on these issues my whole adult life, and I stand on the shoulders of giants. Free software and cryptography advocates have been dealing with these issues before there even was a web. Google's patents and data mining have nothing to do with this.
We finally convince some huge corporations and non-profits to join our cause, and we are -- in the warped mind of IOZ -- discredited as a result. It's frustrating.
Drake, I hate to be obtuse, but what exactly is the big problem if Google misrepresents your personality or identity or whatever. Just because the primary information engine of the internet stores you as a 1 and 0, doesn't make you a 1 or a 0, does it?
Agreed on the overblown reaction to SOPA (I oppose it on principle, not that anyone cares, but even if it passes I'm sure it'll have the same effect on internet piracy as the latest ramping up of the war on drugs did on drug traffic), but I'm also not sure how google is oppressing anyone. I mean, if SOPA's no big deal, then google keeping track of my internet search habits seems hardly worth noting.
Wefinallygotthecorporationonourside2012. It's got my vote.
Drake,
This conversation is getting good, and I am glad I stuck around.
Your points about Google and Facebook are well taken, and I don't disagree with most of what you say.
I think Wikileaks has had far more of an impact on the world than Facebook. Keep in mind, this discussion is about "the entire web" and not just what we see here in the US. I am sure more people spend more time on Facebook, but that doesn't mean that is more of an engine of information. For literally millions of people, Wikileaks has been their primary source of information about the details related to the corruption of their government. And Wikileaks couldn't have existed without the web.
I don't argue that the web is a shining example of freedom. Unless you compare it to everything else that is out there.
"Wefinallygotthecorporationonourside2012. It's got my vote."
The amount of time you spend mocking people who actually stand up to power is amazing. Sorry we aren't doing it right. Maybe we should just mock activists on our blawgs.
Cynicism is much easier than action, and you get to feel good about yourself for being an asshole.
Cynicism is much easier than action, and you get to feel good about yourself for being an asshole.
The perfect summary of the IOZ ethos.
I too am horrified by the commodification of human experience and the massive data mining of our lives.
Really? Horrified? Sheesh, this is where you need to breathe in a bag for a couple minutes.
I want to be "commodified". I want to be date mined. If only Google could model my brain, and rent me the result! I'd love a program that knows what I want before I do. I'd pay good money for me. And that goes double if the "payment" is just having ad urls in some webpages that I can easily block with adblock.
A large number of the comments in this thread remind me of a certain expression involving forests and trees.
To answer Ioz's rhetorical question - both.
Guys, the best you can hope to do is be mindful, which involves mostly insulting anyone who disagrees with you.
I want to be date mined.
Does that require a roofie?
Google is an actor with incredible power, which people who fear government power don't fear because____________________.
Fill me in, here.
I understand the argument that Google has the increasing potential to do worse and worse shit, but I'm confused as to the argument that seems to be presented that what they've done already is evil. I am fine with the argument that stockpiling nuclear warheads is bad, but people seem to be saying that google has already hit the button, if I'm reading right.
Nutella, I think the essential argument that many are missing from their reading of OP is that Universal & Google are equally part of a system that infringes on human liberty. Therefore the belief that somehow defeating SOPA will be a victory for the freedom of information is premised falsely.
When I look out at the Internet today, I see incredible unanimity in expressing criticism of SOPA, and very little that looks beyond that at some of the other scary potential abuses of power. I don't understand reacting with anger towards IOZ because he breaks that consensus, or because he wants to identify a particular other threat that is, if anything, even less accountable or controllable than a fiat government.
Freddie:
"Google is an actor with incredible power, which people who fear government power don't fear because____________________."
Please work on your reading comprehension. Nobody is saying that.
Freddie:
"government power is categorically different than economic power"
Because, as you said Lenny, it's so much nicer being date raped by economic power.
Please work on your reading comprehension. Nobody is saying that.
You, in fact, are freaking the fuck out and acting like a child throwing a tantrum because IOZ is criticizing Google. If you think that there are legitimate reasons to criticize Google, then why are you reacting this way to what's actually a perfectly moderate post?
"government power is categorically different than economic power"
Sure. It's still power, which means you need to deal with it.
I assure you it takes very little of my time.
Freddie:
You, in fact, are freaking the fuck out and acting like a child throwing a tantrum because IOZ is criticizing Google.
Again, please work on your reading comprehension.
I don't have to "deal with" economic power. It's always strictly optional. Any time I want, I can cease using Google for my search. I could use Bing, or I could even (gasp) just not search.
Whereas, when the government demands its cut of my income, I do have to deal with it. "No, thank you" is not an option.
The point here is government control of the internet. Are we really supposed to abandon our struggle for freedom (which your first commenter correctly pointed out has been going on for decades) because Google joins our side on an issue?
[perhaps you should read what you posted]
The point is the internet itself is part of a system of control and alienation & we should recognize and address the actual problem rather than treating the symptoms.
lol . . . Google, Verizon, Comcast, Visa. . .all own my ass. the MPAA or whomever justs want a little tastey taste. FREEDOM!
A large number of the comments in this thread remind me of a certain expression involving forests and trees.
To answer Ioz's rhetorical question - both.
Fortunately, we get both because we have a smart man in the White House.
Right Lenny. So why don't you choose to stop eating?
Google is an actor with incredible power, which people who fear government power don't fear because____________________.
...they don't have a police force, a military, jails, a court system, a legislature (of their very own, at least), spy agencies, Predator Drones, Hellfire missiles, etc. etc.
Yeah, there's the potential for abuse there, but even then, the abuse is most likely going to come in the form of the govt getting its hands on google's info in order to spy on whoever it deems a "national security threat."
None of this, by the way, means I think SOPA is some unique evil or that I'm defending google. I just don't see why data mining, by itself, is such a big deal.
but whadowedooooo (about my porn sources)?
Just thought you all should know, Yglesias has some amaaaaaazing things to say about SOPA over on Slate.
Lucid, I could grow my own food if I absolutely had to, presumably in the rather unlikely event that millions of farmers had independently become tyrannical. I cannot produce my own government. I'd love it if you would leave me alone, but you won't, and you know it. You want my income for your wars and welfare. And in any case you can't make an exception, because if you declined to coerce me, where would it stop?
Leonard,
They're your wars and welfare, too!
Actually Lenny, I don't want anyone's income. I'd rather if we abolish money altogether. We are technologically advanced enough that scarcity could be eliminated if we simply organized ourselves differently... Alas, that won't happen because idiots like yourself believe they're special.
SOPA is just a normal shakedown or racket. Now all these tech companies have to lobby ($$$) Congress to make sure their shop isn't set on fire. Congress is basically saying: nice sites you have here gentlemen, it'd be a shame if someone had to shut it down.
You forgot to mention welfare queens, Lenny. All those brown folk what want "your" money. AHHHHH.
lol
keep the laughs coming guys
scarcity could be eliminated if we simply organized ourselves differently
Ah yes, of course; you will abolish the laws of economics. Good luck with that. Might want to aim a bit higher and also go after thermodynamics. Entropy is so unfair.
LOL! Yes, because the objects of social sciences aren't biproducts of human artifice, or something!
Whereas, when the government demands its cut of my income, I do have to deal with it. "No, thank you" is not an option.
Millions of U.S. residents pay no taxes -- those who live exclusively within a cash economy or who make nothing that is taxable. In fact, I suspect this describes most people in the U.S. Also, of course, many mega-corporations.
I suppose you mean that it's impossible to be a tax dissenter in the U.S. . . . which is also wrong. Many people in the peace movement have altered their lives radically to avoid giving the government any tax money.
It's more difficult to say no to the U.S. gov't -- maybe that's what you mean. In point fact, Google has created an income stream that looks as reliable and as extensive as federal taxation, and I'm supposing it would be difficult or impossible to boycott business who regularly give part of their revenue to Google.
And then there's the fact that large businesses have purchased the democratic process, the process of political image management, as well as much of the federal budget deficit. There's all that, too.
Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
leonard, we already killed god, so killing the laws of economics should be a sinch
SOPA will do wonders for childhood obesity and the degradation of women.
Blogging is masturbation.
Dudes don't blog.
Leonard,
To be clear, I was trying to point out the nature of the question at the tail end of Ioz's post. I don't think its a rhetorical one, nor are they exclusive as Lucid points out.
The easy answer is just to get offline. The enrollment into this whole thing is strictly voluntary. If you are bummed about being commodified, don't be commodified. The alternative to participation is suffering mind numbing boredom at 'work' for a particular stratum of the Ameri-corporate ecosystem.
This is some bullshit:
Just thought you all should know, Yglesias has some amaaaaaazing things to say about SOPA over on Slate.
How the fuck could you not leave at least one link to what is sure to be some deeply confused mash from that B-list pundit wannabe? I eagerly anticipate finding out what pseudo economic jargon he will try to shoehorn into the discussion.
Like some world-weary John Houseman, he lays down some proposition, implicitly says "Discuss!", and stands back to watch all the eager Timothy Bottoms do what teacher says - venture their opinions.
Monsieur is surrounded by eager bottoms? His social life is even more resplendent than I imagined.
Thanks you, antonello - always nice when one's handiwork is noticed ...
Justin, how could I pick just one statement to link to? The man leaves an embarrassment of riches. BUT IF YOU INSIST:
"The public policy question is not whether the libraries are bad for publishers, but whether libraries are beneficial on balance."
Yes, at the end of the day, and all things being equal, on balance, this library thing is alright.
But PS Antonello - don't think you can get anywhere lathering him up with phrases like "resplendent".
Of course he sucks them up, but that's about it. Back in his Slate days I used to address him as "O Lustrous One" and it didn't even get me an invite for a single lousy Seder ...
That is a chin scratcher. What kind of externalities do you suppose libraries have?
No, not a quote. A link! I don't read him, I have no idea where he is hawking his half baked musings at any given time.
Slate you say?
Didn't Bill Murray say that he joined the Garfield movie because it was written by Joel Cohen and he thought it was Joel Coen?
Holy Shitaqua! Fast moving thread. I just wanted to give Justin a knuckle-bump for this:
So you are just now figuring out blogs?
Ay-menn.
As to our good host, this wouldn't be the first time he took a fundamentally foolish but excellently provocative position to spike comment activity, and it appears to have worked.
Helps here to remember that Mother's Brother Samuel and Google are sleeping together regularly these days, and I don't think it's platonic.
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. SOPA is Progressive.
Justin --
Ted, the business of Google is to commodify your experiences by tracking what you say or where you haunt on the internet and the kind of stuff you buy. You are not really the concern though, not as an individual, nor is it necessarily important to have your demo.
Ummm... half yes, half HELL NO.
Google's selling and giving shit to MoBroSam for domestic eavesdropping/spying purposes (HomSec ha ha), so it's a bit more than the straight-up moneybags interest at Google's end of things. Merely capitalizing on it is a simplistic way to see it, like Zuckerberg "merely helping efficiency" by stealing his members' phone books, etc, for resale to third-party info-hounds.
More to the picture than the stuff in the center of the canvas, eh?
Nutella: I am fine with the argument that stockpiling nuclear warheads is bad, but people seem to be saying that google has already hit the button, if I'm reading right.
Karl: Helps here to remember that Mother's Brother Samuel and Google are sleeping together regularly these days, and I don't think it's platonic.
The Big G pushed the button pretty much right out the gate, as did the Big Face in the Sky. Patent & copyright, Googbook & SOPA, yep, all evil, your mileage may vary. Pic summed it up in the first comment & if anybody's interested I recommend this
http://www.amazon.com/True-Names-Opening-Cyberspace-Frontier/dp/0312862075
not for Vinge's story, which holds up decently after 30 years, but for the cryptoanarchist essays. Course, Amazon is evil too, so torrent that shit or get it out the library...
Good rule of thumb, Karl. Its always worse than you think.
There's some talk that if SOPA fails it would be added on to H.R.1981, titled Protecting Children From Internet Pornographers Act of 2011.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:HR01981:@@@L&summ2=m&
This shit is going to happen, as disgusted as I am about it.
I say, Fuck Google, Fuck the government.
Why? Because I like saying fuck, particularly to people with more power than I have.
Shit. Google's trying to recreate "Caprica"? I actually like them now.
But yes, all that stuff said, I don't like a choice between surveillance and property. In that case, IOZ, Google is lame too. But SOPA can be criticized on other grounds, not just the libblogger vein.
"there's cliffs on both sides, i'm not gonna paddle to new zealand!"
Freddie, any non-paraplegic can overcome the incredible power of Google by walking away from the damn screen (and so can paraplegics with wheelchairs).
Googlist apologetics all seem to be of the form "If you can't see Google, then Google can't see you." Is it naïveté, or willful blindness?
Questioning whether google is as all-powerful as some people seem to believe isn't an apologetic.
But anyway, unless google snuck into my house at night and planted a GPS microchip in my ass, I don't know how they can "see" me when I walk away from the computer. And even if they could, my question is: What kind of nefariousness are they up to with this information?
I hear you Joe, but isn't privacy any sort of concern for you?
For context: I don't know many exceptions to the general rule that most of my friends and acquaintances stay in touch via Toobz conduits and/or cell phone transmission. It's not that fun to have to redact all communication to stay off the HomSec radar -- not that fun for me anyway.
The cynic in me says MoBroSam has been listening in all along so why worry?, but the civil liberties side of my papyrus school education festooned noggin says it ain't cool to have one's life under a microscope unwillingly. Of course that assumes we actually have tangible/defensible civil rights, doesn't it? Rebound to the cynic. Smoke begins pouring out of the ears.
Do you have any friends, Joe? If you decide that Google, Facebook, etc. are getting creepy, will they all opt-out with you, or will you just stop all interaction with them?
It's not about current nefariousness, it's about future nefariousness. The data being collected today isn't going to go away. Who will have access to that data 5, 10, 20 years from now?
But anyway, unless google snuck into my house at night and planted a GPS microchip in my ass, I don't know how they can "see" me when I walk away from the computer.
depends...are you carrying an Android phone?
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