Most libertarians and anarchists are not really concerned with freedom or liberty or self-determination or property or the nonexistence of property or any of their other infinite set of synonyms for autonomy per se. Their philosophies of personal freedom are quite literally personal. The old insult that libertarians are in it for the weed is reductive, sure, but it has the element of truth. To some degree or other, we are all in it for the weed, the guns, or the butt sex. By we, I mean men, and I'll come back to that.
Most libertarians will tell you that they would be willing to countenance a more randomly dangerous world and most anarchists will tell you that they understand that their philosophy, were it somehow to become actual, would result in what we late-modern materialists would regard as poverty and material privation. It is supposed to be a mark of bravery and/or sincerity to embrace a philosophy that would see you knocked down an economic peg or two, giving up the iPad in exchange for the ploughshare or what have you. But ironically those reduction in circumstances do not lead to a decline in the advocates' position within the structures of power; quite the opposite: the dismantling of traditional hierarchy and authority advances the lower orders in which the anarchist imagines himself. No number of caveats about a more horizontal world, a declined West, an equitable distribution of wealth or property or political determination undermines this fundamental truth in any way. To some degree, all you dudes imagine an advancement in the advancement of your interests.
Now, tell one of these freedom lovers that every interaction with the state rests on a foundation of violence, and he will nod in considered agreement, but tell him that every interaction between women and men rests upon a foundation of rape, and he will throw up his hands in genuine bewilderment and cry that he is never going to rape anyone! The theory is disproven. This suggests that he is at the end of it willfully opposed to considering, really considering, his own supposed principles, less yet to actually using the analytic tools of his philosophy to observe and consider the world around him. It is true that not every man rapes; indeed, most do not. Most officials of the state do not enact violence; the IRS is full of pencilnecks; the cashier at the city-county building is not going to blow your head off when you're late to renew your dog license. Still, we have no difficulty in recognizing the web of coercion underlying even the most banal interactions with the various agents of the state, even as we are astonished at the suggestion that the patriarchy functions in precisely the same way.
The difference is that men, when confronted with the specter of Woman, Ascendent, perceive the potential for an actual, relative decline in their own status, a meaningful giving-over of their own privileged position in the world to the benefit of someone else. Never mind that the decline is meaningless within the context of a real equality; indeed, it is the currency with which we might all buy a better world. Instead, they yelp like a gang of talk-radio benchwarmers confronted with the nightmare that some black guy, somewhere, got a job that might've gone to a white. Suggest that we must fundamentally reorder our very civilization, and they are all on board; suggest that this might involve a total renovation of our ideas of sex and gender, and suddenly The Women are coming in a genocidal program to cut off all their johnsons. Watching a group of soi-disant radicals circle the wagons against the very suggestion that men rule women--a statement so banal as to be a truism in any other circumstance--is one of the most laughable and pathetic sights imaginable.
If this most ancient and unyielding form of human inequity is of no interest to your philosophy of the destruction of all authority, then your ersatz philosophy is mere affectation, and your protests to the contrary are lies. If you find yourself confronting the word feminism with questions about how there can be a feminism if masculine and feminine are false categories, and if you are impressed with your cleverness in this regard, then I invite you to consider your own anarchy, wherein the whole object of your obsession, the State, is a metaphor and an abstraction.
Nothing is as disappointing as discovering that one's self-described compatriots are fools.
Monday, February 20, 2012
Diving into the Dreck
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demize!
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«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 286 Newer› Newest»Well said, but you can lessen that disappointment with the realization that we're all fools. Even you, sir.
Wow. The best thing you've ever written, Sir.
Biology is destiny.
(I invented that.)
Ah - I see what M'sieur is/was up to now ... he really doesn't give a shit about whether or not it's true that rape is the foundation of all m:w relations ... what he's really after is to brand on our consciousness the premise that violence is the foundation of all relations between individual and state ... and what better way to do this than to partner up the premise with an even more shocking reductio ad absurdum ?
Either that, or he's angling for a paid writing job somewhere that requires advance genuflection in the right direction ...
"If this most ancient and unyielding form of human inequity is of no interest to your philosophy of the destruction of all authority, then your ersatz philosophy is mere affectation, and your protests to the contrary are lies"
YES, THAT!
So, so pleased to read this, Ioz; I am off to read it again, and will be curious to see how the comments develop, if at all...
It is a perverse truth that men have rape fantasies. It's also a perverse truth that women have rape fantasies.
This may be inextricably bound up with the essence of sex, which of course is itself inextricably bound up with human life, its origins and its perpetuation. I might suggest that perhaps even the majority of women wouldn't have it any other way.
But this biological truth, if truth it is, doesn't foreclose equitable and equal ways of living between men and women, and I wonder whether your observation is taking in a lot of strawmen-anarchists. For example, the Iroquois Confederacy is a society I'm prone to idealize, and they were at least partly matriarchal.
Many moons ago, I read a post on Twisty Faster's blog where she speculated - purely as a thought experiment, not even as a proposal for a new society - about a world in which consent was presumed absent unless explicitly given. In other words, the opposite of the current one.
My first thought on reading this was, "Holy shit! That would be terrifying!" My next thought was, "All right, why am I so terrified, and what does this tell me?"
That's about as far as I've made it: recognizing, with honesty, that a loss of power in the male/female relations that I enjoy would terrify me. I hope to make it further, but, well, easy stages, as Lawrence said.
A disservice to fools everywhere otherwise great stuff.
This is correct. Not all my compatriots are total foolz.
I don't think the reaction is surprising really; I think my beloved anarchists, as much as other pinko stripes, are just liberals when push comes to shove. Whereas the abolition of the State and attendant sacrifice of institutionally -granted advantage is comfortably distant and abstract, feminism attacks privileges that are in, more or less, immediate danger of liquidation.
Reminds me when a sincere environmentalist had the temerity to suggest we might have to give up air travel on Alternet--I don't think I've see a more hostile barrage of rejection of the theme a post there.
Not an arrow hit the target.
But nice shooting, I guess, if the shots themselves are the thing, and not targets being struck.
whois he , ..yes interesting post ,.. and with comments as always .. as well ,of how pen jack responded,and the others .. / ..could eveyone sing something of ..a day of birth happy to anne in the morning as she presses her face to the double panes of her window tomorrow .. .
"...but tell him that every interaction between women and men rests upon a foundation of rape..."
...and if he has any sense he'll dismiss it as the simple-minded bigoted tripe it is.
Those paid radfem writing gigs, taking the best of us at the worst of times. I also hear that parts of liberated Athens have started nullifying civil marriages.
I'm sorry that mother nature decided to make men physically stronger than women.
Oxy, tell how the womyn oppress you
But who will think of the bottoms?
This is a truth that must be spoken again and again - kudos to you for doing it.
When you write a great article like this, it makes waiting through a hundred one line quips riffing on Times articles worthwhile.
anony' 7:42 , mother ? nature .. are you sure .. . / and freddie , mistah' is that you .. .
Anne,
I don't think I'm the only self-described anarchist who is sympathetic to radical feminism.
And "every interaction with the state rests on a foundation of violence" is similarly simple-minded.
Anonymous @ 7:55,
If governments did not have armed staffers, a monopoly on sanctioned force, and near ubiquitous law enforcement capabilities (comparative to the populations they claim), would they function as either governments or States?
pen jack, there was more to why i picked you out of the group in my comment with that .. / and freddie ..that was a tease whoever you are because of something that happened in a follow up comment to me from mistah', related to tvont. here i think .. .
I thought the post was confusing, not because it expressed difficult ideas or was poorly written, but because it was built on attitudes of most people who try to advance anarchism that I just haven't seen.
Besides the Professor's comment above, which was instructive.
Can anyone point to similar opinions or experiences that back up what IOZ is talking about?
(Please don't say "the previous rad. fem. post's comments", because most of the nonsense in there seemed to stem from a lot of personal and philosophical places that had nothing to do with feminism or anarchism)
Anon @ 8:14,
We express our most intimate relationships in the possessive. "My children." "My wife." "My boyfriend."
The language doesn't allow for a normative alternative.
Obviously, a lot of this has to do with the Indo-European language group itself, but there are cultural and historical reinforcements which work against awareness of and revolt against these linguistic conditions.
Anarchists, like any other group of persons attempting to shape a view of human existence which is outside of or in opposition to the consensus and royal realities, import the preconceptions they are taught, within these language banks.
And in our society, the possessive reinforcements are buttressed by gender assumptions which are so pervasive as to be regularly treated as "natural."
"It is true that not every man rapes; indeed, most do not. Most officials of the state do not enact violence;"
Isn't there a problem with this analogy? We cooperate with the officials of the state because failure to cooperate leads to increasingly strong measures to get compliance, including police and prisons. A woman who does not comply with a man for one reason or another, does not risk successively severe punishments from other men. There is no record-keeping going on in the patriarchy. We don't all have her social security number.
Also, enough already with the 'circling the wagons' bullshit. I don't think your feminism is all that special apart from the hyperbole that goes along with it. It's that that people are objecting to.
The uncritical applause for this stuff is really irritating, particularly coming from Jack, who used to complain when women objected to being called cunts.
Anonymous @ 8:32,
Untrue.
This was something else, IOZ. The way I see it - as a previous commenter in that awful thread said - it's right there in the name. Anarchy necessarily entails rejecting the patriarchy. We'd cast doubt on a self-proclaimed anarchist who was also a soldier. We'd cast doubt on a self-proclaimed anarchist who locks his children in the basement when he's not at home. We should also cast doubt on a self-proclaimed anarchist who unthinkingly avails himself of his male privilege (read: the systems of entrenched power that enable the easy and hard-to-defend-against coercion of women, systems that simply do not exist the other way around.)
Of course, somebody might do this and yet be a consistent anarchist, by simply not accepting the existence of these systems. They'd also be, like IOZ says, a fool.
"Untrue."
You may be right. I think the word was twat. I'll look it up. Shame Ms. Xeno doesn't hang round here. I think she'd remember.
For a harder look at Jack Crow's feminism, see this thread on A Distant Ocean.
http://www.distantocean.com/2010/11/tear-jerk.html
The problem, Monsieur, is that you're just a dude from Pittsburgh who cares too much about wine.
You could be building bombs, you know. You could light a match. You can fairly argue that it wont fix anything, but neither will this. Your effect on the world is exactly that of anyone who spends his time, as I do, complaining on the Internet: zero.
Stop mistaking intent for effect.
Thanks Jack
That kind of lays out the reasons for the behavior IOZ talks about. But I'm still not sure why, if it's so pervasive as to not need to cite examples of it, I haven't seen examples of it.
Maybe I don't get invited to the right parties, or read the right blogs. And that's too bad, because "suggest[ing] that this might involve a total renovation of our ideas of sex and gender, and suddenly The Women are coming in a genocidal program to cut off all their johnsons" sounds like a riot to actually witness.
And you'd still be wrong, Anonymous.
Here's a portion of a recent post where I spell out my opinion of the the word "cunt," among others:
There are also techniques which generate friction and disruption in order to police behaviors and govern responses to behaviors in others. As a way of preserving the benefits which accrue to the operators of large, complex systems. Think: masculinity, homophobia, "rugged individualism," drug interdiction, racial and economic isolation. Think: faggot, bitch, cunt, whore, nigger, gook, spic, wetback, kike and retard. Think: the effort and time which goes into cultivating people who must defend masculinity, homophobia, "self-reliance," using their own colonized and compromised minds and bodies as tools against others.
Cornucopia..
Anon @ 8:32,
Oh yeah, it's the hyperbole that everyone's objecting to. Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude.
@ 8:41,
Mayhaps you are interpreting IOZ's figure of speech rather too literally?
You'll have to do better than a link where I take umbrage with liberal capitalism in comments, Anonymous. That's what I've been doing for the better part of three years.
Anonymous @ 8:41,
I think if you read the comments to the thread titled "Lioness and the Cheese Grater," you'll probably have the best possible introduction to "anarchists" to whom IOZ refers, above.
Anarchy necessarily entails rejecting anyone named Archy.
You should look a little closer, Jack. You begin by belittling a linked discussion in which commenters take use of the word 'twat' in relation to a woman seriously. You then bob and weave in your customary way when called on it.
"Oh yeah, it's the hyperbole that everyone's objecting to. Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude."
Well that's certainly persuasive. My conscience is clean as I reckon yours and IOZ's are as well.
Look, no one is discounting the oppression of women. I just don't think the way it's being articulated around here makes a whole lot of sense.
IOZ has said the State's power rests on violence even though there are some non-violent government functionaries, ergo it must surely be true that all male interaction rests on rape even though most men aren't rapists. Interesting idea, but he hasn't demonstrated it.
Perhaps you can show me where the word "twat" occurs in this (very first) reply made my myself:
"I watched it. That line about business stuck out for me, too.
The progressives still won't get it.
Or, maybe, they do get it. Maybe the really do know and understand that they've got class interests.
Maybe we can come to a place where we can finally admit that capitalist liberals are only "progressive" so long as it's about identity and vague tolerances.
When it comes to the constitution of society itself - they only really differ from their conservative cohorts on "social issues."
Just like Obama.
Which is why they stick with him."
If you're going to invent a position for another person, Anonymous, and then link to a supposed proof, you should at make sure you've got an argument worth continuing.
God, jack. If you really are interested, see the link to the Crooked Timber and your reaction. Not going to blow any more time on this.
Even Jack Crow isn't sufficiently pure? There's identity politics doing its usual bang up job of creating division mistrust and hostility. Replacing a principle of equality with the elevation of difference above all else.
If you do not reject identity politics, you are not an anarchist.
"There's identity politics doing its usual bang up job of creating division mistrust and hostility."
I dont give a shit about Jack's purity. I do give a shit about his uncritical applause for these craptastic posts, since it's at odds with how he has conducted himself on other blogs.
if he doesn't want to be called out, maybe he shouldn't solidarize himself with IOZ at his most grandiose, the only real anarchist here, he said so himself.
<>
--
Nonny nonny nonny, JC did not comment in the CT debate you say he did. We threw away ten mins reading it. JC did not argue bout cunts twats or veejayjays @ Distant Ocean. Why u mad?
If you do not drop Chinese ink on sleeping babies, you are not a comedian.
nony at 9:28 aka Jack.
You're full of shit.
But anyway, I know when I've hit a wall.
Applause applause for IOZ's big huge anarchist dick, so much bigger than everyone else's for being really really feminist.
I am unworthy of contemplating it any longer.
PS: unanswered question up there at @8:32
Oh, some/most men cannot square female ascendancy with their own retreat from the social halls of power? Stop the fucking presses. 1975 called and it wants its radicalism back.
When I got this bored I just fucking stopped.
For the non-stupid:
Jack belittled the Crooked Timber discussion that was about calling a woman a twat.
Dipshit.
And what is freedom? Isn’t that just another fantasy that people toss around like the idiots who think Star Wars is real and debate whose battle star is the baddest? In fact people are afraid of freedom, it’s the last thing that they would ever wish for. If you want this alleged freedom eliminate all your friends and family from your life so that their thoughts don’t weigh you down like a ten ton brick. Get rid of your possessions which in reality is nothing but another abstract idea, I mean how do you possess something, really. If anything your possessions own you because you must take care of your possessions, maintain and polish them, protect them from entropy. Then if you want to be truly free avoid all contact with your fellow humans. The idea of freedom is much too scary for anyone to really want such a thing. For once you have achieved this hallowed state of transcendence from the mundane and the slobbering madness o f civilization just what are you going to do? Evolve into a being of pure energy and float away to explore Neptune and Jupiter? Perhaps perform ballet in the stratosphere floating along like a cloud? Shall you dive into the eternal night of space to cavort with other beings of pure energy and thought as you ponder the meaning of the big bang? That people are full of shit and disappoint each other is no epiphany. It’s the way it is. The only thing that really matters is that you are alive, now, and that it won’t last very long. What else is there? Certainly not freedom. How terrible people are, they make such nasty messes and they aren’t reliable compatriots. How awful of them.
Every interaction between musical instruments---including the human voice---rests on a foundation of rap. Now, of course not ALL vocalists or musicians rap, but the possibility is built into the structure of society. Rap can happen at any time, and sometimes does happen.
This is a fact. At the same time, not all music (or possibility of music) can be reduced to rap.
The first three A Tribe Called Quest albums are masterworks. Every one of them.
Anon @9:36 (and I'm assuming 9:38),
I'm not ashamed of my pseudonym. I'm not posting as an Anonymous. And I didn't mock any discussion of calling women "twats." Not sure why you keep inventing this.
As to why I or anyone else would agree with IOZ on this issue, perhaps it's because he's right. It's not an easy argument, I'll concede, because it strains against biases which are pervasive, and being pervasive, mostly invisible.
I still find the word "patriarchy" troublesome, not because I disagree with the analysis, but because it attempts a description which crystallizes dynamic interactions; and because these behaviors are repeated and learned and re-learned as a matter of familial, religious, peer and formal instruction, lending an aura of ubiquity, often overlaid with assumptions of natural order and rank.
But, I have the same problem with any number of anarchist analyses of "the State," precisely because the term assumes that a category of description (and one which is a fiction) is a solid, continuous, territorially contiguous concrete entity.
That doesn't mean that I, or anyone else who accepts the broad outlines of feminist critique, rejects the challenges to government or the revolt against the social sanction of the abuse of women.
And I don't write this as someone who hyphenates his anarchism, applies the label "feminist" to himself, or who hasn't taken a shot or two at certain liberal capitalist presumptions about the liberation of women through participation in war and capital accumulation.
Oh the irony. IOZ's whole ethos is one of scorn and condescension motivated by a desire for intellectual domination and informed by the advantages incurred by his privilege. Above all else he must demonstrate that he is the alpha everything. Perfectly illustrated by dismissing his inferiors (male and female) as "fools" for failing to measure up to the standard he mandates.
Christ, what a hypocrite.
Resisting the temptation to read any of the comments: "Hear, hear!" (which comes from "Hear him!" (un)ironically enough)
((Sorry for my small contribution to Foodie Fight Friday and that Herrn Monsieur had to come home to such a mess.))
Just read the comments. Congrats to Herrn Monsieur for hitting the target(s).
'LIBERALS ONE AND ALL OF YOUS!' Classic.
We are women, hear us vacuum our fetuses!
yes, disappointing. the only way to fix it may be to write about women's issues with greater frequency. the pricks will flee to the nearest porn site in no time.
"We are women, hear us vacuum our fetuses!"
shut the fuck up
If governments did not have armed staffers, a monopoly on sanctioned force, and near ubiquitous law enforcement capabilities (comparative to the populations they claim), would they function as either governments or States?
No, but only because those are the definitional characteristics of a state. Doesn't mean thats ALL they do. Most would probably agree that if all the words vanished from the pages of my copy of goodkinds latest tome it would no longer be a novel, but it would still bravely carry out its present function of holding my door open even without the weight of all that ink.
Leon,
I don't think the argument is that "states only commit violence." I think the argument is "you can't get all the other stuff they do, without the armed staffers, threats of force, and violence."
@Nony 10:06
At least it's an ethos.
Well, a world without state violence would be different enough that its tough to figure what non-violent gubmint functions would even remain relevant/desired. Even so, if all the cops and soldiers went poof today the mail would probably still run tomorrow.
Would they be government functions without the force or threat of force, Leon?
Put another way, are the commons captured by the state, or essential to it?
"And then I saw some people who knew the Republicans were crazy, and they called themselves Democrats, and I thought, 'There are my friends! They want the hatred to stop!' And went to join them.
But they wanted to divide and hurt people, too. So I cried.
And then I saw some people who knew the Democrats were crazy, and they called themselves anarchists, and I thought, 'There are my friends! They want the hatred to stop!' And went to join them.
But they wanted to divide and hurt people, too. So I cried."
IOZ will be deconstructed into the same hateful form as the others, albeit behind a different curtain, in half an hour or so.
IOZ, you are very intelligent, and you are a human being--you should not shelter this terrible bigotry. Right now, it happens to place you mostly on the side of "right," but in a few generations, those same knives you helped sharpen will be turned against someone else. Let us stop the sharpening of knives.
Everyone relax, it'll all be over soon.
Hey digthisman: "our ideas about sex and gender" have been renovated many, many times already throughout the history of humans, and will be again, many more times. It like happens allthetime. The isle of Lesbos and Sei Shonagon's Heian Japan and the women in Provence listening to troubadours on their damnable lutes are like all very different variety exists youknowwhatimsayin.
"...the very suggestion that men rule women--a statement so banal as to be a truism in any other circumstance..."
Well I guess you've never met my MOTHER-IN -LAW! *rim shot*
There's a much lengthier human history of mothers committing infanticide against their children. If IOZ can remove himself from his sheltered, fatly rich Western 2012 circumstances, would he then make the claim that all human relations with women exist on a foundation of child-killing?
No, he wouldn't. Because he only wants awful stereotypes to cut in the direction that's convenient for him right now.
So IOZ, being as deft of pen as you are, want to actually take this to the mat? Can you handle a Socratic back and forth where you don't rub your eyes, cry foul and go home to partner? Or just quietly ghost and pretend it isn't here? Can you address an issue at length until you've learned something and improved?
Your Obama criticism is fantabulous; please don't stop doing that even if you don't have the ovaries to handle getting trapped in your own words.
Sigh. It's a pipe dream, really, to have hoped that wittiness in one area meant you weren't going to be a scion of bigotry in another.
Oh for heaven's sake
"IOZ" is a heightened persona for public consumption, whose repeatedly stated modus operandi is to use hyperbole and wit to shake people out of their intellectual ruts
Going after this persona for failing to consider the cultural context of its argument, or for trying to force its alpha intellectual phallus on the world, is dumb
Would they be government functions without the force or threat of force, Leon?
No. If the entity in question isn't at least trying to maintain a monopoly on 'legitimate' violence it isn't a state.
But those functions are being carried out in the here and now by the state, no? Interactions with such services are interactions with the state that aren't underpinned by violence.
Except perhaps in the abstract sense of those functions falling into the gov's hands because of tangentially related gov violence. E.g. gov creation of a propertarian market economy making it impossible for freelance weather prediction services to thrive so a national weather service gets made.
But I think if you push it that far the analysis starts to lose meaning.
arka you simply are not capable of advocacy on behalf of those who suffer.
keep your eyes peeled, tho. you might have to tell another woman to kill herself.
Again you confuse her with me. No, this is the tired modality of leftism masquerading as anarchism. It is license to project all that is wrong with human society on solely one component ; patriarchy. It affords just another sort of cudgel to those who would choose to weild one. You conflate the individualist with the collectivist. You are far more educated than I IOZ. but I know bigotry when I smell it, and want no part of any flavor of it. This reaks of utilitarian-collectivism to me. This is the permission to not reflect on owns own role in the perpetuation of authoritarianism.
"arka you simply are not capable of advocacy on behalf of those who suffer." Suffer, like the white rich western college educated women who advocate liberal intervention to free the poor Hijabis. Ive seen more genuine desire for elucidation and altruism from arka then The radfems. And that's not because Im partisan. What I see is a lot of mean spirited passive agression;lots of anons with snarky one sentence putdowns. It almost seems stylistic, like a technique they teach in Gender studies programs or something. I also see an odd pantomime of the worst kind of machismo posturing, and lack of compassion in the tone, not very "femine". But apparently very radfem. Btw what is femininity? Can one of you define it?
you're a moron
@11:41 Anon, yeah--this one called IOZ as putting on a show the entire time, only out of respect for him. If so, cool! If not so, sigh, but the Obama commentary is still really cool.
But even if it's not IOZ who's that awful, there are plenty of aspects here who agree with that drivel, and they might find the discussion illuminating. Unlikely, but hey, as said before, when in Rome, stand up and tell the Romans they're Imperial shits and need to change. Sure, you'll get crucified, and history will never remember you, but at least...
Uh oh, I think that's it. Ah well. Saying holds.
As promised, the argument can be found parsed and destroyed here at Deconstructing IOZ
much like christ, you're so fucking cool
I must have been interacting with a more pollyannish crowd, because my recollection is of libertarians arguing that the government does a terrible job of protecting us and it would less dangerous to get rid of it. I've never identified as an anarchist because because I look around and don't see statelessness as a stable equilibrium.
The theory of rape lying behind even seemingly innocuous interactions is apparently called "Myrmidon theory". Personally, I've always found the "rape is about power, not sex" argument (which Brownmiller seems to allude to if not explicitly embrace) rather absurd. The choice of victims looks a lot like an evolutionary psychologist would expect, and chemical castration seems to work quite well. It's the kind of thing where you don't think its proponents seriously believe it.
My memory was jogged, and rechecking perhaps Brownmiller did explicitly embrace the theory.
Are all the anons in the 16 year old age group and trying to prove my point for me.
It's penises all the way down!
Hey, IOZ, I recently heard you were using the principle of classification to divide humanity against itself in the ultimate interests of antilife. Is this true?
A nony and some LeonTrollsky (nice nym dude) have cut IOZ on the key issue here. Rape's "web of coercion" is not the parallel of state violence. Disobedience to the state, if it is known and you do not back down, ends up in the state exerting its legitimated violence against you. Whereas, for the women to disobey the 98% or so of normal, non-rapist men, there is no consequence.
Yes, in both cases there is a "web". But one web is stickier than the other, and also, manned by a giant, soul-sucking death spider.
You can live your whole life without being raped! Whereas, you are being taxed even single day.
I do find IOZ's radical feminism sad. Men and women are different. It is biological. You won't change that. Even if you could, you'd probably hate what resulted. Imagine a society of pure men, albeit some with breasts. Yuck.
Of course, my anarchy is nowhere near a "destruction of all authority", which is an immensely stupid concept. I really do hope IOZ is not so callow as to believe that such a thing is possible -- but he is young. Do tell, in your anarchist paradise, when a women gets raped and the culprit is known, how will you deal? Perhaps a sort of executive officer of the week? But no, even that is authority.
In my anarchy, a private protection agency captures the culprit, tries him in a fair private court, and hangs him high. Yeah, it's got the authority to do that. And yeah, it's probably mostly run by and staffed by men, who are into the whole exerting violence thing. Physical aggression. And being physically stronger than criminals. Stuff like that.
Shit damn! What a man!
Can I slowly work out the wrinkles between you penis and your thigh, because that's just where your funk is?
While I do that, can I stick a finger up your ass and make your tits alert?
Would it be terrible if I took your balls in my mouth and slowly caressed them.
Or, maybe you should do that.
Actually - you should do that.
AND THE ISSUE ISN'T SEX.
It's any situation in which there is an unequal distribution of power. That many of you are oblivious to this is fascinating.
First off, you guys know you can sign your posts, right? You don't even have to sign up for anything or use a pseudonym you use somewhere else. Just put some fucking thing so we aren't always talking to time stamps.
Second, if this radfem stuff is really so awful, probably somebody in the last 88 posts should have been able to come up with a non-awful rebuttal. I've seen a couple but they're pretty damn unconvincing:
"Disobedience to the state, if it is known and you do not back down, ends up in the state exerting its legitimated violence against you. Whereas, for the women to disobey the 98% or so of normal, non-rapist men, there is no consequence."
In the 1910s, a black man could disobey 98% or so of normal, non-racist white folks and not have to deal with anything worse than some bad words.
So. Fucking. What.
Yes, sexism, racism, religious persecution, etc. do function in fundamentally different ways from government persecution. You really want to sit there and argue that a lynch mob is less frightening than a police dragnet because the police have to fill out more forms before they shoot you?
Also, there's the part where IOZ already talked about how the IRS guy doing your audit is never going to personally garrote you for your continued disobedience. And the part where nobody wears signs saying "Hi, I'm not a psychotic nutcase!"
"If IOZ can remove himself from his sheltered, fatly rich Western 2012 circumstances, would he then make the claim that all human relations with women exist on a foundation of child-killing?"
In other words, if pressed, would IOZ argue that parent-child relationships are founded on the threat of violence to the children from the parents?
Far be it from me to put word's in the proprietor's mouth, but yes, of course he fucking would.
"This radfem stuff" is not "really so awful" in the unique sense; it's just a different variety of bigotry. It's collective punishment for what IOZ defines as "males" justified by patriarchy.
Whether or not there was/is patriarchy, and to what extent it still affects the world, is one issue. Probably there was/is such a thing; this one certainly feels so.
Another issue is whether or not what IOZ (or Saurs, or whoever else) defines as "males" should be held responsible for whatever this patriarchy is/was. That's the issue that IOZ immediately leaps into.
Assuming the patriarchy as a given--in which presumption, again, they are likely accurate--they move to demanding that people be "anti-male," holding the entire loaded definition responsible in vague ways, and demanding non-specific capitulations.
What are the demands, here? Confess sins? What sins? It's apparently not enough to "not rape" or to "say women deserve equality" or even to actually treat women as equals or superiors; it mostly seems to be the standard western liberal guilt trip where hair is torn and shirts shredded in dramatic agony over patriarchal oppression, as long as the pinot keeps flowing and everyone agrees that men as a group suck.
"In the 1910s, a black man could disobey 98% or so of normal, non-racist white folks and not have to deal with anything worse than some bad words.
So. Fucking. What."
Probably not, actually. 98% is a little optimistic. Even assuming so, though, what's "fucking what" there is that it would be wrong to punish the entire group collectively for what wrongs only some have committed.
Like, is it okay to murder Iraqis because Saddam Hussein sucked? Everyone here probably doesn't think so. Yet it's all in good fun for many to advocate collectively punishing "males" for the crimes of benefiting from their "maleness."
Again, the question is raised: if you are an American not a member of a Native American tribe, are you going to turn over your house, car and bank account to the nearest Native American tribe? Why not? Answer: because you don't actually believe that you should be held accountable for wrongs performed by other people in the past.
IOZ isn't, either. If he's not just stirring up discussion to validate his ego--which is cool, IOZ, if that's what you're about--then he's a hypocrite, considering that he's drinking wine and eating fine food while little Native American kids that his forebears slaughtered are living in poverty on the tiny bits of land that IOZ's family left them to eke out a living on.
As to the last bit about parenting, if you see the world only in terms of violence, including parenting, then you see what the writers of the Torah did: original sin. If people relate to each other based on violence, rather than on empathy, what hope have we? You just want your group to be the one winning the day? That would explain the hypocrisy and misdirection.
This one prefers to believe in empathy forming the basis for human relationships. If you end up being right, then congratulations, we really are all in Hell. This one will at least keep aiming for the light.
And no, Christopher, not "parent-child relationship."
"Human-woman relationship." Because of the responsibility that mothers have had for infanticide, should all "female humans," as a group, be held responsible for the culture of violence and oppression toward infant children? That's where your coveted postmodern radfem critique's logic takes you, just like giving up your stuff to the tribal council.
So as soon as you give it all up to the Natives, start lecturing women for being "fools" for not apologizing to you for centuries of exposed six-month-olds, then kill yourself somewhere in Africa in penitence for the neanderthal genocide, your radfem is just cute little richie posing.
i had meant to send in my anarchist resignation letter a few months ago. but i couldn't find a mailing address. it's like anarchists are disorganized or something.
just to say that, those few months ago, ioz himself convinced me that anarchism (as he and others here conceive it) is largely bunk.
anyway, i think the following was directed at me?: "If you find yourself confronting the word feminism with questions about how there can be a feminism if masculine and feminine are false categories, and if you are impressed with your cleverness in this regard, then I invite you to consider your own anarchy, wherein the whole object of your obsession, the State, is a metaphor and an abstraction." there's an important point of confusion in there. and it makes me wonder... are you all that this is the same ioz as the ioz before "no revoir"?
christopher,
"In other words, if pressed, would IOZ argue that parent-child relationships are founded on the threat of violence to the children from the parents? Far be it from me to put word's in the proprietor's mouth, but yes, of course he fucking would."
is on a par with the following, most fucked up notion of happiness i've ever read:
"Feminism is not about addressing your personal happiness, which can be achieved quite easily by fucking other people over to your heart's content. Some of the happiest people on the planet: right wing dudes in cushy jobs with plenty of women around to suck their cocks and make their dindins and wash their drawers, plenty of people of color around being casually exploited as slave labor, living in a country whose philosophy is rugged goddamned individualism, dude achieved this all on his own pinkyswear and no lies."
But they ARE coming to cut off my wossname! I have seen them, their glittering fangs poised for instant amputation!
(And, by the way, mine is extremely small, so I charge the feminine race with assault on an endangered species.)
The Adrienne Rich reference was good, though.
How many womyn does it take to change a lightbulb?
9 - one to call the landlord and 8 to complain about the phallic light switch and how every time they want to read Susan Okin it's like being assaulted.
Intellectual domination. Sounds like we need a safety word.
Mr. Fun already won this with the Ammon Hennacy quote in the last thread. It amazes me that some people still don't get it.
This isn't about "punishment" or "blame" or "reparations". If you are a Western male, you live in a culture that has handed you a heaping plate of privilege at birth. If you want to call yourself an anarchist, it's not enough just to deplore that privilege, or insist you'll only use it for good. You have to actively reject it, actively throw it away, just as you actively reject (for example) state coercion when it happens to be on your side.
This is part of the minimum standard of being an anarchist. What IOZ posted here is really a banal (if well-expressed) truth.
Specifics please. How was I as a male privileged over females at birth? What privileges are they that I have to throw away?
To deny the existence of male privilege is to be either childish or obtuse. Neither invites discussion, I'm afraid.
You know, it's funny, but I anticipated exactly that response. Is reason one of those male attributes we're expected to disavow?
Great post. Stupid thread.
"Is reason one of those male attributes we're expected to discard?"
Aaaand there it is. I have to admit it takes some chutzpah to assert the social equality of females in the same breath as a dumb-broad joke.
John,
To expect them to obey your patriarchal demands and clearly state how men oppress women by their very existence would be to fall into that very same oppression.
But if you insist (and isn't it just like a man to insist), here's one for starters - you men tend to find some women more attractive than others.
Kindley,
The critique does not assume that you have innate advantages inherited at infancy. It suggests that you have gained them over time, as a function of your training into a maleness.
Leon,
If the government isn't running its protection racket for the ruling class, how does it gain the loot, and therefore the capacity to provide minor ameliorative services?
Kindley,
I think this from Philboyd might answer the question "what are my privileges?" -
"Interactions between men and woman rest on the foundation of rape; this, as I read it, is a simple expression of rape culture. Every piece of subtle macho posturing, every little joking intimidation would not work without the accepted social position of men as powerful studs who take what they want. Likewise, that accepted social position would not make sense without the awful prevalence of men raping women. Here, maybe, is a radfem twist: even if you don't posture, even if you try to repudiate the idea of a strong, rape-y man, your interactions with women still rest on a foundation of rape - just as a policeman who tries really hard not to use his nightstick still interacts with people on a foundation of violence. In our society, that's what a policeman is. That, unfortunately, is also what a man is, and that is a direct result (or foundation, whatever) of the patriarchy."
("Privilege" is a tricky term, admittedly, because it defines positions upon a shifting continuum, and it's easy to mistake a relative weakness vis a vis an angry and armed cop, for example, as a lack of power over others elsewhere.)
it's sad, if unsurprising, that the "wot male privilege? where? coulda fooled me" trope survived into the second decade of the twenty-first century yea unto the end of the 13th b'akt'un seemingly no worse for wear.
it chaps my ass so much that it's hard to imagine that it's not rank flamebaitery. but stipulate: a white male in the anglosphere may, in point of fact, have had a rough time of it in this here Greatest! Recession! Ever! and "privilege" may be the last thing he feels.
let's assume our imaginary interlocutor never got that sexist culture is about invisible systems conferring privilege rather than merely individual acts of domination. fish don't know they're wet, in other words.
the "specifics please" retort is too often a setup: refute the specific, the gambit goes, and you can claim to have refuted the general. but it's too good an opportunity to pass up:
* you're about seven times less likely to be raped: especially if you stay out of prison
*you still make 27% more, on average, than wimminz
* being assertive, even aggressive, it tolerated if not encouraged: nobody is going to call you "that fuckin bitch" for speaking out
* if you are heterosexual, the chances of you being beaten up by your partner are vanishingly small compared to hetero women
* you can wear anything you want without being branded a "slut"
and the capper:
* you have the privilege to act totally unaware of any of this.
So basically the underpinning of this radical feminism is that men are stronger than women and so are able to have sex with them against their will, if they so desire? And since physical dominance of men over women is a biological fact, such "privilege" is innate, permanent, and insurmountable.
Nice gig.
Help, help, I'm being oppressed!
OK, IOZ, many your self-described compatriots are fools; what about the rest of them? Do you have anything to say on this subject beyond browbeating those who reflexively disagree?
Well that was better than your gnomic wisdom of the other day. Was Anon 5:53 a sock puppet? His comment betrayed the same puritanical preoccupation with righteousness at any cost (and I applaud the honesty), as opposed to your typical supercilious stance towards any conception of the good.
Do you think any entity but Leviathan can vanquish the patriarchy? It would take a lot of navel gazing. Will it be done voluntarily? For the sake of righteousness? Maybe the Amazons will make a comeback? You obviously have grasped what many anarchists miss, that they are not the same. Else you would not castigate your confreres as fools for thinking they can destroy the one and without worrying about the other. But coming out and saying it is just too much. As if anarchists are any less foolish than radical pacifists or the Shakers.
A bus to Leonard's Anarchy is leaving at oh-naught-hundred. And that's not the only good news: All women who board now will not only be granted the possibility to live their whole lives without being raped, but if they are raped, and the perp be known, there's a private system in place to capture, try, and hang 'em high! And, oh yeah, you won't be taxed.
Come on, I've been had, right? This has gotta be a joke, right. Herr Monsieur, please fess up to being our lovable Leonard.
Anyone can say “I’m and anarchist” but it’s for the most part meaningless. There is no anarchist movement, there is no anarchist group that acts in a cohesive manner to promote anarchy. All there is, is a small smattering of people who like the idea of anarchy which is drowned in a sea of obscurity. People participating in blog comments tend to get carried away with the importance of blogging in the first place. Comments may range from interesting to juvenile snark but they change nothing with the greater population even aware that it exists. There is no anarchy in the United States nor is there likely to be. The feminist movement that gained popularity in the sixties seems to have stalled out as well. People now want to be” professionals”, a fancy word to cover up the reality of slavery to the one percent. And while the OWS movement may bear a resemblance to anarchy in that it is self organized the people participating in it are not anarchists but the exact opposite in that their desire is not change but a return to a time of greater prosperity which will not happen at any time in the near future no matter how long they are able to keep their occupation going. It is also doubtful that protests are even a useful tactic since they rarely change anything but the tactics of the opposition who tend to be smarter any way, or at least sneakier. In the end people are going to do what they have always done which is to vote in another stupid presidential election where they will vote for a charming mass murderer or a jackass like Santorum who participates in meetings of pro Israeli rapturists. And to say that people who believe in the rapture are nuts is an understatement. They make the UFO crowd look reasonable.
So it sounds like as a practical matter what I have to do to "throw away" my inherited male privilege is to just stop acting macho. Trouble is, if I wasn't so macho, so many women wouldn't be sexually attracted to me.
How many of the people on this tread actually have experience with rape? Have you been raped? Has someone you care about been raped? How do you feel about it? Do you believe it wasn’t their fault? Do you believe they could have avoided it if they had just been more careful? What are they then supposed to be careful for? Should everyone not be free to feel safe doing the same things as everyone else? What if they cannot? What does that mean about their privilege compared to others?
I love how the biology-is-destiny argument is invoked nowhere else, e.g. that political hierarchies are rooted in primate dominance behavior and undoubtedly have biological underpinnings.
Or, you know, the fact that we aren't all eating with our fucking hands.
"Most libertarians and anarchists are not really concerned with freedom or liberty or self-determination or property or the nonexistence of property or any of their other infinite set of synonyms for autonomy per se. Their philosophies of personal freedom are quite literally personal. The old insult that libertarians are in it for the weed is reductive, sure, but it has the element of truth. To some degree or other, we are all in it for the weed, the guns, or the butt sex. By we, I mean men, and I'll come back to that."
there's another way to read this: anarcholibertarianism = responsibility distancing = "legitimizing" antisocial behavior = destroying the little threads that bind all humans together = sociopathy.
it's a rejection of humanity/ the human condition. it's disconnect from reality. and so it's powerless to cope with/ face up to reality.
but there's this: the self-styled radfeminists here don't do one thing that ioz' anarcholibertarianism does. they don't send up a mocking "whaddowedo". radfeminism, near as i can tell, is all about what we do.
John Kindley @ 9:35 AM, ladies and gentlemen: the K-Tel Records of Classic Male Reaction. "Hey man, is that Freedom Rock? Well TURN IT UP, man!"
yes, John. what feminist women fear is your awesome cocksmanship. dial back your primal and hirsute masculinity a bit, and their silly complaints about the violence and the inequity will just fade away.
sounds like a bunch of rabbis arguing talmud.
Truth is, I'm not all that macho. But if I didn't have a macho bone in my body, I probably never would have gotten laid. That's not to say, of course, that women are most attracted to what some might characterize as the most macho: the guy who exudes the attributes of a rapist.
funny, I can look back on a life of achievement, on challenges met, competitors bested, obstacles overcome. . .jaysus IOZ talk about lowering yourself into the sanitary sewer manhole without an oxygen monitor. . .lulz. just yesterday I was out on a yob site testing sanitary sewer lines for I and I. . .true story. and this time next year I will be a full time stay at home Dad. TAKE THAT PATRIARCHY! RIGHT IN THE `NADZ! why would I put a gaping hole (trigger warning!) of discontinuity in my career and resume and status in my very, very patriarchal profession? cuz the Fun's can afford to, really. I forget what I was going to say. basically I'm ruining my chances at finding a yobbie yob and ascending to my rightful place in this very male dominated field (civil engineers are like the army without guns) at a later date. but to any that know me know that I want to do something else anyway. moving on. . .
if a human society is the titanic and the engine is the state then the patriarchy is the fucking bolts holding the ship together. it's not that difficult a thing to put your head around, really. admittedly I've tended to focus on the murdering murderers and whatnot. . .the people ordering and cheering and theorizing and dressing up and doing the killing, because look don't do that. . .but like IOZ said about the protest of the war of Iraq. . .sure YOU remember it, but I bet your neighbor doesn't. so if you're capable of tracing back the little kernel of "consent" to a vote, and extrapolating and coalescing in your minds eye how nationstates of 300million people come to be and behave, it can't be that much more difficult really to see how what "a man" is, in the parlance of our times, and how critical that is to our fuzzy wuzzy widdle empire. you can think of the patriarchy as just another set of rules that we all go out and live and play by when we're not online talking about anarchism an shit. YOU WOULD THINK THAT ANARCHISTS WOULD BE ALL UP FOR TRADUCING THESE RULES AND NORMS AT EVERY FUCKING TURN FOR WHAT THEY ADD UP TO IS WHAT WE GOT GOIN ON RIGHT NOW. here in America, or wherever.
jaysus. `guess not.
Kindley,
Women have a programmed desire to fuck a man with attributes of the "macho"?
Dominance, I'm sorry to say, inheres in sex. Chalk it up to original sin. Maybe that's why Jesus recommended and practiced chastity.
Heh, Kindley relies on supernatural naturality: "Dudes dominating women is like natural and shit, which is why the supernatural creator of all things, y'know, the dude who programmed this very naturality, is like fucking pissed that dudes get all fuck-dominant. His solution, though, ain't to stop the dominating. It's to try and not do any of the fucking."
...because, I mean seriously, repression + "natural domination" wouldn't = more rape, or anything.
9:35,
my wife was raped (it happened before i knew her). i'm temporally removed from the situation so i feel sorrow for her, (though limited since the rape's impact dulled by my personal experiential distance); but more, i am proud of her that she continues everyday to overcome the trauma. i don't believe it was her fault.
i'm not sure how to respond to the "safe" question. (i think that question and the questions that follow are sorta mis-focused.) security is good in some ways; bad in others. that is, it's what we crave when our lives are too chaotic (too anarchical). it's what we abhor when our lives are too ordered (too repressed). how that ties into privilege, i'm not sure.
mr. fun,
so, is human society the titanic, and is the state the engine, and is patriarchy the bolts? just asking because the analogy feels contrived.
Lively pair of threads here recently.
I'd like to state my position for the record: I'm down with the MacKinnon line IOZ is peddling here, and generally down with (certain flavors of) radfem.
I'm less completely on board with anarchism. But that's old news.
The thing that bothers me in trying to reconcile feminism with anarchism is this (hinted at in my comment at the top of the previous thread): chimpanzee males oppress the shit out of females and kids. Human males (unspecified utopian Native American cultures aside) horrifically oppress human females. However, the plight of women in liberal democracies has improved tremendously in the last few hundred years. The law and the state have been, if not exactly consistent champions of women's rights, at least better friends than all the institutions of cultural authority that have preceded them.
So, I can either (1) believe that there are magical non-hierarchical hunter-gatherer cultures out there that have somehow erased the gender oppression exhibited in all other human cultures as well as our closest relatives, chimpanzees (and also exhibited by orangutans and gorillas in different forms), or (2) believe that the state and the law have been pretty good for women recently.
Call me a cynic, but number (1) just is a little hard to swallow in the absence of compelling evidence, which I've looked for in vain.
Whereas, for the women to disobey the 98% or so of normal, non-rapist men, there is no consequence.
Which is exactly why there is no glass ceiling, no equating assertive women with "castrating bitches," no spousal abuse, no pressure to put out in high school, then condemnation when you do.
There is also no major consequence most of the time when you don't bag your dog's shit, but you have no recourse when you do get fined, and the more you resist accepted norms, the more harshly you get punished. Most of the world isn't working in a food co-op in Cambridge or the halls of Ms. Magazine, it is WalMart cashiers and cleaning crews. If you don't think there is an ever present physical threat looming in these circumstances, you are not looking closely enough.
Picador: Look up the Iroquois Confederacy. They're my heroes.
This is all very interesting, but I'd like to point out that this conversation is couched almost entirely in terms of so-called straight white male privilege. As a darkie, allow me offer a different perspective. Or rather, allow me to air my suspicions regarding this version of radical feminism.
You will, I hope, understand my skepticism at the idea that simply being born with a penis and a certain level of testosterone automatically makes me some sort of existential threat to women and female empowerment. It was, after all, some earlier version of "rape culture" that was used to justify stringing up an awful lot of black folks.
From where I stand, this sort of genuflecting feminism is, itself, a manifestation of privilege. It's a little like driving a Prius. In other words, it's great, if you can afford it.
However, the plight of women in liberal democracies has improved tremendously in the last few hundred years. The law and the state have been, if not exactly consistent champions of women's rights, at least better friends than all the institutions of cultural authority that have preceded them.
This isn't wrong.
A common mistake when talking anarchism is to presume that all anarchists want a return to some "state of nature" where everyone lives like Rousseauvian savages. I can't speak for any anarchist but myself, but I don't think that would be an improvement, especially not as far as subalterns are concerned.
And I suspect most of us realize that, were every uniformed soldier in the world and their armarments to vanish tomorrow, as if by magic, the result would be a new state arising to take its place. Someone new would seize power and use it to distribute favors to their friends and sycophants.
So I can't deny that the fate of women, taken as a faceless composite, is better in 21st century America than it was in 18th century America. Now ask yourself which women it's better for, and by how much. The honest answer is "some by a lot, some by a bit, some not much at all." And when you inquire further as to why affairs are better for some women but not all, you'll get at the relationship between anarchism and radical feminism.
SORRY PUPPYLANDER I WOULDN'T WANT TO MUDDLE THE ANALOGY ANY FURTHER BY EXPOUNDING ON IT
j.r., that was precious. Out-victim those victims! Who's got more to complain about: blacks or women? (My money is on blacks.) Yes: women's ongoing oppression by my fabulous dick is a first world problem. You want some real oppression, look at the Muslim world. Of course, we can't go there -- religion of peace!!
As a phalloblancoheteronotwhinyial-American, it is my honor to be proud of not being a victim. I know, I know: old fashioned.
davidly, all you have is that? That's pathetic, even as typical leftist sneering. As you draw it, my anarchy has everything we currently have except no taxes. Sounds good to me. Can't you at least express appropriate horror at the idea of convicted rapists being hung? That's the death penalty, you know -- something I expect you oppose as a progressive.
And no, I am not IOZ. I should think that my distinct style would make that obvious. IOZ is good but not that good.
The thing of it: I don't know anyone who likes anarchism, or its milder cousins like "libertarianism" and "socialism," because they naturally abhor power. People rebel against the power that chafes them, not against power as such. The power that benefits them, they have nooooo problem with. This is why you see plenty of libertarians who are "male rights advocates," or socialists who want to make sure the bums don't horn in on the free food at their OWS kitchens. For them, Proudhon stops at the water's edge.
So, yes, a consistent devotion to the demolition of power in all its forms would entail dismantling the power that men have over women. It would also require a level of self-abnegation that even martyrs would balk at. Like Schopenhauer said: man can do what he wills but he can't will what he wills.
I get that it's the right thing to do, but there's a gulf between getting it and getting it. I wonder if I'm capable. But that may just be the lapsed Catholic in me channeling Augustine.
(all right, that's Proudhon, Schopenhauer and Augustine; any other references I can shoehorn in? or am I good?)
Picador, well said. It is nice to see at least one other person in this thread who thinks that human nature is relevant. (This is one litmus test for basic intellectual honesty. If a person is unwilling to acknowledge that humans are evolved animals with natures, that person cannot be reasoned with.)
Anarchy has some relationship to feminism, because the market order has always destroyed traditional relationships of all kinds. State-imposed orders tend to traditionalism. I expect an anarchist society to be mildly more feminist in some ways than ours, and less feminist in others. That "less" is for two reasons. (1) Because much of modern feminism is about redistribution and the replacement of the husband (a private arrangement) with the state; and (2) Because even when people are free many of them actually want traditional relationships.
, leonard has a ..fabulous dick .. ,oH, i'll be back for more of that .. and to read the comments on this post ..sometime today ... ..happy day of birth to me , ...i hope that you all saw the 201,202 and on of the lioness .. . with puppy literal and something else .. .
Despite the dreck, it's been worth reading through these threads for the novelty of seeing people who regard themselves as radicals earnestly mentally reinventing traditional society when confronted with the irresistible logic of anarchism.
I think these last few posts have been the Monsieur doing penance for that one where he almost sorta saw David Brooks' point.
"From where I stand, this sort of genuflecting feminism is, itself, a manifestation of privilege."
j r says what we're all thinking.
the phrase "human nature"
mr. fun,
well, i'm just curious, we can treat "human society" as a "human invention", like a very large and complicated steamship, because we do, sorta, make/shape "human society" (manly, western take on the universe)...
on the other hand, what if we took a more naturalistic, feminine (romanticized, mother earth) view and asked: is it really "human invention"? that is, what if the inevitability of "human society" is different from the inevitability of a steamship? how does that change your analysis?
by post i mean whoishe's .. not my comment ..
Oh Christ puppylander - I went to HS with a girl whose Mom was Yugoslavian and being quite beautiful had been raped once by a German occupier and once by a Soviet savior. Then, in the late 60's, she was raped once again in her elevator on Central Park West in NYC, presumably by someone who had just become a fan of Fanon.
She didn't blink a fucking eye, puppylander, just went on with her life. Why? Because she was a strong PERSON first and a woman SECOND.
By which I mean that you don't know shit about women just because your wife was raped before you knew her.
Only women know about rape, and it's best for weepy supporters of women to just shut the fuck up ...
Leonard, what kind of shitty anarchist thought led you to this sentence: "(2) Because even when people are free many of them actually want traditional relationships"?
Maybe consider for a moment what "want" means here? Like, what might have compelled or, I dunno, coerced women into "desiring" submissive roles. And as to your first point, are you arguing that all of feminist thought is irrelevant because some modern feminists still believe in the state?
In sum, I don't understand why anyone would be opposed to any feminist propositions. How are any of you idiots arguing that patriarchy doesn't exist? It's not even an open question. Who carries all of the guns? Who controls all of the property? It is not up for debate that men have positioned themselves at the top of every hierarchy, and use the implicit threats of rape or domination to stay there. It is a fact. Please now argue about things we don't know for sure. Jesus.
"i don't understand why anyone would be opposed to any feminist propositions."
feminism is certainly a monolith and the writings of one feminist stand for the writings of all.
also, your happy relationship is not happy at all b/c you refer to your wife as your wife. she hates that. all of them do.
e.l.,
someone asked. i answered. there's really no more story (as far as you concern me).
Great news, gang: Leonard's Anarchy Bus has everything except taxes. Ask about the stipend for private security detail.
If they say "why, why?"
Tell them that it's human nature
"Why, why,
Does he do me that way?"
If they say "why, why?"
Tell them that it's human nature
"Why, why,
Do I have to prove with medical certainty that I didn't consent to sex, rather than just saying that I didn't consent, a fact that's more obvious to me than anyone else as no one knows the confines my soul better than I do, but is apparently not sufficient for this police officer, this paramedic, these detectives, this therapist, my attorney, his attorney, and everyone I ever meet for the rest of my life to whom I recount this story?"
- Michael Jackson
Are you assholes trying to make me look stupid? Fuck all of yinz and your wack bullshit.
According to the FBI crime stats, blacks are almost 5 times as likely to commit sexual assault as whites. What should a true feminist feel about this?
Shut the fuck up anonymous.
I am not Fredi
The Dull Sycophant
There's already a safety word here: "Monsieur". Signals submission by the betas.
As the anarchist horde dwindles, exposing the rampant misogyny and patriarchy-beholden false consciousnesses of even IOZ's illustrious commentariat, I realize we are acting out the internet version of The Man Who Was Thursday.
What if I am a physically weak man, weaker than the average woman. And what if I only want other men inside of me instead of me inside women. Do I get a pass?
"i know all of this and much more puppy .. perhaps this is why mr. fundamental uses the primary penciling when addressing you .." ,said a lioness .. .
And Peter Kropotkin-sanity SCORES at 12:14 !
Nice shot, bud.
WHO'S THE FUCKING NIHILIST HERE! WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF FUCKING CRYBABIES?
gabe,
it was inevitable. it has been (throughout) an unreflected and unfleshy philosophy, if it was ever a philosophy at all.
"Aaaand there it is. I have to admit it takes some chutz pah to assert the social equality of fem'les in the same breath as a dumb-... . joke... " said stillnot', .. .. worth noting ..something that eerily does well also .. of my getting back to him as i said i would in time .. on his many comments here that suggest .. .
...oh anne...please stop....writing...here. you....never....make....any...sense....hands fluttering....
There's been an interesting claim in the comment thread, not to mention the post itself, that men's domination of women, the patriarchy, is analogous to or even the fount of the domination that characterizes the State and that we anarchists want to abolish. Therefore, the argument goes, if we oppose the State we should logically oppose the patriarchy. But consider, if we males have a gene that causes us to want to dominate, the same gene causes us to rebel against being dominated, or at least against kissing the boot on our neck. And consistently with that, there seems to me to be a lot more male anarchists than there are female anarchists. Lead, follow, or get out the way, they told us in the military. I chose and choose to get out of the way.
where are my commas , .. hand flutter .. .
@Leonard:
If a person is unwilling to acknowledge that humans are evolved animals with natures, that person cannot be reasoned with.
I'm a little uneasy about how you've couched my comment. While I agree that our evolutionary origins are relevant to any discussion of why we do the things we do, I'm not sure they're always relevant to whether we ought to do things differently. In fact, I spend a lot of my time getting into shouting matches with people who subscribe to various versions of the Naturalistic Fallacy, as I am, personally, a big fan of many "unnatural" practices.
I agree with JR regarding the highly problematic way that ostensible concern over women's welfare and the "culture of rape" has been mobilized to justify the torture, murder, and enslavement of black and brown men. I also have a lot of reservations about some of the consequences of MacKinnon's theory of heterosexual coercion laid out by IOZ, such as the slippery slope created by crying "false consciousness!" every time a woman makes a seemingly free decision to participate in a friendly relationship with a man. But then, MacKinnon herself has written quite lucidly about how problematic her theory is. And many radical feminists have written about problems of intersectionality, i.e. how overlapping issues like race and gender can generate serious problems (e.g. lynching) if not addressed in conjunction.
It's, like, complicated. I've been a bit disappointed to hear so many voices here who seem to believe otherwise.
, and if i ... don't make any sense .. why do the best and the brightest here in this streaming talk with me privately by mail.. .
You do realize @pda the Justice Dept. figures for rape show men are victims of rape at a higher frequency than women for the first time in recorded history as of two years ago. This is becsuse of the vast nunbers of incarcerated. So while men are perpetrating "rape" culture they are also the victims. This doesnt even take into account transgendered people in our fine gulags. This country is a big fucking giant rape machine, it rapes other cultures and resources. Are there any feminists at the highest echelons of this rape apparatus?
demize,
Are you reading the stat sheet correctly?
Yeah, I think you're reading those numbers wrong, demize.
Best I can find, are 1 in 4 for women, and 5 out of 100 for men.
And there's this:
35% of college men indicated some likelihood that they would rape if they could be assured of not getting caught.
A survey of 11-14 years olds found that
51% of boys and 41% of girls believe that a man has a right to force a woman to kiss him if he "spent a lot of money on her."
32% of boys and girls say it is not improper for a man to rape a woman who has had past sexual experiences.
87% of boys and 79% of girls said rape is okay if a man and woman are married.
47% of all those surveyed said it was okay for a man to rape a woman he has been dating for more than 6 months.
Source.
Im pretty sure I did? They have a Byzantine route to the stat, but if I'm wrong Ill admit it. Im on my mobile and cant find the particular link, but will post it if O can.
I hasten to note that the lynching which j r mentions was and is the result of patriarchal attitudes and is almost exclusively carried out by men. And while it might be the ostensible concern over women's rights that is cover for heinous crimes, it is the culture of rape itself which leads to them. The State may send the little boys to protect us, but it is the little boys who do the actual raping. You think the State don't know that shit and take advantage of it?
Happy Birthday, anne!
Drake: perhaps you are sheltered. Anyway, what with the internet existing and all, it is quite easy to acquaint yourself with devotees of any number of unusual sexualities. Slaves are one example: nearly all of them are women, and they crave a master/slave relationship. They will do what it takes to get one, even in our enlightened society, where it is not easy.
But! You sputter. But, but! It is only -- only! -- because these women were raised in "patriarchy" which made them that way. It cannot be nature! In-con-ceivable! It just can't!
Oh? It cannot? Please do explain why. Surely the mere proposition that humans have a nature, that male and female brains are different, is not exceptional. Then why can it not be the case that some women are naturally submissive?
I am also curious how you explain homosexuality. I would guess that in your opinion, gays like our proprietor were born that way. If Lady Gaga says so, must be true. (I happen to agree with her.)
Anyway, your position here is a peculiar one. You are, in essence, asserting that abnormal sexuality is learned in some cases and that it is innate in others. And the particular categories of learned/innate just so happen to line up exactly with your politics -- submissive women (bad!) learn it or have it imposed "by patriarchy"; gays (good!) are born that way.
900080290008021http://harpers.org/archive/2011/03/hbc-90008021 Im trying to find the original article with the stats.
no I think my metaphor is pretty solid.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women?newsfeed=true
"I hasten to note that the lynching which j r mentions was and is the result of patriarchal attitudes and is almost exclusively carried out by men."
The latter part is not completely accurate. If white women did not commit the act of murder itself, they were very much involved in the accusation and identification of the victim. Moreover, as lynchings were community affairs, the audiences were not exclusively men.
PDA @ 8:51
How about we respond to a non-strawman "naive heterosexual male" position? Let us assume we're talking about a heterosexual male who acknowledges the facts you've outlined below, and accepts them as true and unjust. Then let's posit that our "naive heterosexual male" acts as I've outlined below in real life. The QUESTION posed by this "naive heterosexual male" is: Given that our sexist culture is about "invisible systems conferring privilege" WHAT THE FUCK MORE DO YOU WANT ME TO DO ABOUT IT? If you're answer is "start a political movement to subvert any and all persons and institutions associated with these invisible systems" then I think the retort is that it's a bit much to demand that heterosexual males firebomb all of Western Civilization or else be branded an uninformed promoter of the male hegemony. But if that's what your demanding, at least say so.
Oh, and if you're response to this post is "anon obviously doesn't get it, there are so many more particular facts to posit about the male hegemony" then you're falling back on the same strawman argument. ASSUME (even though it might be a difficult assumption for you to accept) that the heteromale we're talking about is cognizant of the full breadth of the "invisible systems conferring privilege" and in their own life is cognizant of such privileges and acts to counterbalance them to the extent possible.
YOUR FACTS:
* you're about seven times less likely to be raped: especially if you stay out of prison
* you still make 27% more, on average, than wimminz
* being assertive, even aggressive, it tolerated if not encouraged: nobody is going to call you "that fuckin bitch" for speaking out
* if you are heterosexual, the chances of you being beaten up by your partner are vanishingly small compared to hetero women
* you can wear anything you want without being branded a "slut"
* you have the privilege to act totally unaware of any of this.
FACTS ABOUT NAIVE HETEROSEXUAL MALE
* doesn't rape people
* doesn't pay women less then men because doesn't have any employees. tips well.
* doesn't call women "fucking bitches" or roll eyes when women express opinions forcefully.
* doesn't beat partners
* doesn't call women sluts or related insults
* is aware of this shit.
demize,
Right in the article it states that the original quoted figure (more than 200k separate male victims of rape in prison) is wrong, and that it's actually more like 85k total sexual assaults.
85k doesn't approach the reported numbers of women raped or sexually assaulted each year. It comes no where close to the unreported numbers.
Furthermore, the Bureau tracked assaults of inmates, not men.
en ron, (sorry about the renaming ,born with too much need of cre a tiv itY ) ..yes a mixed bag of bad behaving ...of lynching .. . / thank you davidly ..i'm going about in the street today ,between rain drops .. in to cafes ..looking for candles to blow out .. ,trip
@jackcrow if you can relax a bit I said I would try to find the exact numbers. Im sure your ass will not be in jeopardy. But you keep pasrsing those numbers in the mean time
Leonard - you're the mirror image of IOZ in your lack of appreciation of how subtle these matters are.
Guess what?
There are lesbian radfems (or close to radfems) who are not opposed to, and in fact, enjoy, getting a "taste" every once in a while. And of these, some even enjoy bottoming while doing so.
Call it the "imp of the perverse" that resides in all of us - call it whatever you like - what you and M'sieur completely ignore here is the wisdom of Pascal's observation that "the heart has its reasons that reason knows not of."
And inasmuch as this is true, habitual idiots like you and occasional idiots like M'sieur will just never be able to pigeon-hole the situation into some convenient framework dictated by their heads.
God knows you can trust the FBI with those kinds of things.
Yeah you fucking tool everybody knows men arent sexually asssulted in prisons. Your class is showing, tuck it in.
demize,
Heh. I'm fine and quite relaxed. I had today off. And I'm just taking the numbers offered in your own source. You linked the Guardian article. I took the time to read it. That's not parsing. It's called "quoting." Perhaps you didn't realize that the Guardian article deconstructs the "more men are rape" notion, not supports it?
Picador, I do not write to make people comfortable. Rather the opposite. Afflict the comfortable with the truth.
I feel somewhat akin to IOZ in that; the difference is, I am the real McCoy. I am hated in these parts for crimethink; just look at the laudatory response that IOZ gets for his "I'm on the reservation" posts about feminism, versus the sort of sneering hatred that such as Davidly spew at me. He cannot argue because he has nothing. But he can certainly hate, and attempt the standard social methods by which leftist orthodoxy is maintained.
IOZ is willing to afflict the comfortable on certain topics, most particularly, war and the state. He sees, as the left does not, that the state is a system of domination, and democracy is a mirage and thus a further system of control. On the other hand, in many ways he is bog-standard left. Feminism is one such.
The idea that "this most ancient and unyielding form of human inequity" will ever change, absent truly totalitarian state power or really awful genetic engineering, is adolescent tripe. Men rule because men want to rule more than women do, because men will accept male dominance more than female, because dominance is partly achieved via physical presence, and because women must expend tremendous time and energy to have babies. Yes, all that stuff is unequal, and thus according to progressive orthodoxy, unfair. Most people of both sexes learn to live with it.
Monsieur,
Is we talking marriage and family?
The Dull Sycophant
Leonard, that reminded me of an exchange I had with Davidly a while back on the subject of women and revolution, where he asserted that every revolutionary movement in history has had women at its forefront, or some such. There isn't much to say in response to such a pronouncement.
Aww, the top couldn't handle it. Whatcha 'fraid of, IOZ? Is your safety word being not present? Guess that is a very safe way to play.
First world feminist: the core issue of our time is aggregate reduced pay within the upper echelons of empire!
@2:37 anonymous: forthcoming.
Perhaps relevant to the thread:
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/21/the_real_problem_with_honoring_whitney/
leo & pic,
i think there's an overstatement of what biology controls in the gendersex brew. whereas there's an understatement of what biology controls in the anarchyvstate brew.
kindley,
interesting late observation that the desire to rule is closely tied (if not identical) to the desire not to be ruled. and yeah, why do so many anarchists have penises?
Here it is. Human Rights watch flawed USDOJ accounting http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/
Sorry, http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report.html
@Leonard, hate? That's mighty left of you. Really. Just because I mock "your anarchy" doesn't mean I hate you or even it. And I agree with you that both male and female human-types tend to learn to live with male dominance. Just like most learn to live with state dominance. And, no, we are not likely to overcome either, but we can have our little fantasies, can't we?
@Gabe Ruth: "Or some such"?
Thanks for the credit. Nevertheless, I think I know what you're getting at, so I will go on record, again, and assert that, yes, I do actually believe that the best anarchists (or marxists or commies for that matter) have been and still are women.
maybe i need to rethink this whole anarchy thing.
"if I didn't have a macho bone in my body, I probably never would have gotten laid."
in two threads full of vile crap, this has to take the cake. this fellow acts macho in order to "get laid". he thinks this implies error in (any?) feminist critique. bro thinks that without acting macho, he "never would have gotten laid", and we are left to assume that such a state of affairs would be bad for the cause of liberty.
dude, you adopt a received conception of manliness to coerce, yes coerce, sex from women who otherwise would have made a different choice. this is the whole game you've just given away -- don't you know that?
as for everyone calling everyone out for being too rich to discuss this topic meaningfully: raise your hand if you don't live in the richest country in the history of mankind!
Am always incredulous, Leonard.
As if our epoch was the only one to ascribe its pet peeves to unequivocal natural validation. As if circa 201X was the magical sought-for historical conjuncture when current fallacies and apologies for power would be revealed for the ignored genius of their time fifty years hence.
Hypothetical: How would any of us have reacted to Renaissance-era demonstrations of physiognomony?
How should we have?
don't sing it, bring it. pussy.
Let's pretend you can be dictator with unlimited powers for the day (or year, or however long you think it will take). What magical program(s) will you enact to minimize (or can we pray for eliminate?) the oppressive, unfair, not-equal standing of men with respect to women? Be as specific as possible.
Gender reassignment.
"dude, you adopt a received conception of manliness to coerce, yes coerce, sex from women who otherwise would have made a different choice. this is the whole game you've just given away -- don't you know that?"
Yes, if I wasn't at least a little macho she would have chosen instead to have sex with someone who was. There's no coercion about it. That's what women, at least a lot of them, want. They don't want to have to approach the man. They want the man to have the confidence to approach them. Some here would seem to see in that very approach the seeds of rape.
This may sound stereotypical, and there are of course plenty of exceptions. There is nothing wrong with a woman approaching a man. There are many ways of being what I've called "macho." The most thoroughgoing D&D playing geeks have managed it. The point is at least a whole lot of women prefer a man who's got some cockiness to him, and who makes them feel "safe."
Ya, not sure about this whole "you acted in a way that you thought others might find pleasing?" line of attack.
Anon @ 2:37, for the sake of clarity: "If this most ancient and unyielding form of human inequity is of no interest to your philosophy of the destruction of all authority, then your ersatz philosophy is mere affectation."
However, if - on the other hand - this most ancient and unyielding form of human inequity is not of no interest to your philosophy of the destruction of all authority, then maybe your not ersatz philosophy is not mere affectation.
Put differently: why so defensive, chum?
John @ 4:46: what in the concept of "total renovation of our ideas of sex and gender" necessarily presupposes that we'd all be eunuchs?
Put differently: why so defensive, chum?
LOL - there is still an IOZ reader who falls for the "whatarewegonnado!" empty set. We need a bot for that.
"gender reassignment " ok smartass; female to male. Should she renounce her male privlege now? You're a dick.
Yeah, fine; I'm now identified as male. What do I have to be guilty for? Can I dominate your reassigned female ass, IOZ, and tell you to clean my kitchen and make me a meatloaf?
a gender joke from the mid-20th century
M: Sometimes women take things too personally
F: No I don't!
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