I think my favorite rejoinders, when the delicate sandalwood scent of anarchy threatens to turn the abattoir into an ashram, is the Crackpot Survival Situation Scenario, in which two men, a desert isle, a .45, and a single coconut are blithely posited, or deposited, as the case may be, with the implication that, but for an amphibious landing by the Marines, the NYPD, and the Fourth Circuit, guns blazing and quills appellating, these two fine specimens of the human manimal would descend posthaste into a sort of Lord-of-the-Flies-cum-Alive scenario, leaving nothing for our sentient sea-otter inheritors, or whatever, but picked-over bones, signs of struggle, and the ineluctable conclusion that in the absence of a system of totalitarian social control, we were, all of us, just too violent to live. This little fantasia is invariably played as if its author were Bach at the organ, improvising a work of such inestimable genius and novelty that even the bitterest skeptic must find himself transported by it. Ahem.
Well, there are anarchists and there are anarchists, I suppose; I count myself among the latter variety--I don't anticipate the kingdom of heaven here on earth in my lifetime, nor in any lifetime, although, to put more of a point on it, I don't think that anarchy promises utopia. This is a common confusion among liberal defenders of the state, that those of us who think it a bad thing imagine in its absence a peaceable kingdom of some kind. Personally, I imagine anarchy as . . . what would a liberal democrat call it? A workable system. I do not suspect that it will eliminate human frailty or avarice and so forth; I only say, perhaps the absence of vast, totalizing systems of human extraction is something to take a look at.
But back to the scene. In general--I am speaking only for myself--I find that my natural instinct, if that's the word, is to help people, to cooperate with them, and not to enter a violent berserker rage each time I approach a revolving door at the same time as someone else without an authority figure to mediate who will step through first. Since I am an arrogant, self-regarding prick, I can only assume that for much of the rest of humanity, the less emotionally crippled portion, the general inclination is to work together, even without the diktat to do so. In fact, it seems to me that when cooperation is compelled, it is generally in the service of something fundamentally evil, the pursuit of some awful corporate end, or obeying the law, or going through airport security, or registering to vote.
Monday, April 09, 2012
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It's not the "working together" bit that is the challenge to anarchy from the statists. They have no problem seeing that people cooperate. It's the cooperative assembly into mutually antagonistic groups. If you've got a nice hippy-dippy anarchy going, where everyone is helping and not too many are crime-ing... but the people in the next valley all band together and cooperate wonderfully to help each other conquer you... whaddyagonnado??
In this context, let me note this War Nerd quote: "the people who do genocide best are law-abiding, decent, stand-up folks. Strange but true. Take the Germans: wouldn't hurt a fly... unless someone in uniform told them to. Then they would fry every fly on the planet."
civil war is life.
Ask an anarchist (as properly understood) to describe what an anarchist society looks like, and the utopianist expects to hear a description of some wholly-other, alien society, nothing like our own, that can be dismissed as an unlikely fantasy. But the anarchist instead responds with something much like “you’re soaking in it” — that is, anarchy is not some future utopia that the anarchist is striving for, but it is the way of interpreting and understanding the society the anarchist already lives in.
http://sniggle.net/Experiment/index5.php?entry=31Oct08
Ah, but for a kingdom of revolving doors.
but you're back to the beginning. working together begets some sort of a 'system' which begets rules which begets enforcement of those rules.
in the never-gonna-happen scenario, it will remake itself. inevitably, some will be left behind again.
As a member of a 12 step program with a service structure that includes the statement "that it never perform acts of government". I would suggest that the general service of AA is an example of how a large organization, can be an effective support for millions of members, who as alcoholics have a history of prickly and difficult behaviour.
Yes, @1:45. It is not that the notion co-operation without government is impossible that stops this man from thinking anarchy would be equally as stupid as any other archy. It is the notion that co-operation without rules is impossible and that rules are governments. Or that governments are rules. Or whathave you.
Also, I never figured you for such an optimist re: the human spirit, ozzie. Tell me, where do the sociopaths that somehow seized the reigns against all of pristine humanity's non-violent cries fit into this voluntary non-utopia that you describe?
I gotta agree with Ioz on this. You say the word anarchy and the first thing that comes to most people’s mind is murder, rape, mayhem, looting, etc. The assumption is humans cannot live without Dear Leader making the traffic lights work in tandem. In other words for most people anarchy is seen as a negative to be avoided at all cost. There are a lot of assumptions like just what is the nature of humans? Are humans naturally violent and aggressive or are they naturally social animules? And if you are raised in a society like our violence prone western society you might assume that people are naturally prone to violence when perhaps this is just a result of being raised in said violent society. During the time of pre history people must have lived in different types of anarchy without destroying themselves, in fact they must have done just fine or we wouldn’t be here now. I’m not at all convinced that there is a set natural order that demands humanity must in the end evolve to statehoods of rival tribes. I think it is just how things happened work out, unfortunately. Maybe we are all just ruled by Murphy’s law.
Yep. The fantasies always involve two (or more) (straight) men. I posit all the high-minded philosophy would be either corrupted by the presence of women or cast aside in favor of the more profitable dreams of gang-banging and rape.
Rob - I think it all starts with the notion of property. Would be interesting if a linguistic root could be discovered - the origin of the possessive case. I think it predates even the most archaic languages we know though.
'Civilization', or more properly, the violent era beginning with agriculture and domesticated animals seems to automatically imply possession.
"the Crackpot Survival Situation Scenario, in which two men, a desert isle, a .45, and a single coconut are blithely posited, or deposited"
Hey if it worked for Jack Sparrow it could work for me
So far this is a bracing combination of scholastical angelology, a script meeting for "Avatar 2", and the weed-smoking scene with Professor Jennings in "Animal House".
The inexorable problem is that all too many humans value and pursue cruelty, control, and exploitation in their own right, not merely as means to (supposedly) artifical or unnecessary ends.
We do live in an anarchy now, at the world level. A collection of groups not under a true one world government/state (yet!), that form various agreements and treaties and break them to various degrees. Yes, it just so happens that every group, in order to be recognized as legitimate by the others, has to proclaim and enforce its monopoly use of force in a specified geographic region. Every club has rules. If you don't like it, move out into the ocean.
i tried that, but the dolphins already control much of the ocean. and they hate humans
I know I sound like a broken record, but is it so crazy to think that there might in fact be a systematic and rational way to predict how homo sapiens sapiens would behave in the absence of a state -- namely, to examine the behaviour of their near-genetically-identical species, pan troglodyte aka the common or robust chimpanzee?
And indeed, we see IOZ and the Anarchists (EMI Records, 1976-1983) vindicated insofar as these gentle forest-dwelling primates do in fact exhibit a charming and life-affirming set of cooperative behaviours toward other members of the troop. Sure, there are a fair number of dominance displays, with social hierarchies being formed and enforced through the usual antics (rape, assault, the occasional malicious infanticide), but nothing you can't see on a typical Wednesday afternoon on "Maury".
It's only when you introduce a second troop of these fellows in the next valley over that things start getting a bit unpleasant. It seems that chimps -- and by all the available evidence, we ourselves -- don't really have the capacity to recognize more than 100 or so of their fellow citizens as being part of the tribe. And if you're not part of the tribe, you're either a threat or a natural resource. So the first order of business when we find out about the interlopers is to organize raiding parties, whose job is to sneak into enemy territory, find a small group of the infidel foreigners alone and far from help, and torture the men to death and murder and/or rape and/or kidnap the women.
And all of this without holding a single election!
"the people who do genocide best are law-abiding, decent, stand-up folks. Strange but true. Take the Germans: wouldn't hurt a fly... unless someone in uniform told them to. Then they would fry every fly on the planet."
dunno why i feel compelled to say this is bullshit. but this is bullshit.
Picador raises the example of our cousins the chimps - no doubt someone will soon mention the bonobos, who live a happier and more pro-social life by having
more sex
IOZ speaks of our sentient sea-otter inheritors, suggesting he has read or read of Kurt Vonnegut's novel Galapagos - our furry descendents have an easier time of it than we did because they have much less dextrous forearms and/or fewer brain cells [1]
my guess is that what stands between us and a better world is lack of "Substance of We Feeling" (Doris Lessing's phrase) which conceivably might be developed by better psychosocial education
[1]From Wikipedia:
Galápagos is the story of a small band of mismatched humans who get shipwrecked on the fictional island of Santa Rosalia in the Galápagos Islands after a global financial crisis has crippled the world's economy. Shortly thereafter, a disease renders all humans on Earth infertile, with the exception of the people on Santa Rosalia, making them the last specimens of humankind. Over the next million years, their descendants, the only fertile humans left on the planet, eventually evolve into a furry species resembling seals: though possibly still able to walk upright (it is not explicitly mentioned, but it is stated that they occasionally catch land animals), they have a snout with teeth adapted for catching fish, a streamlined skull and flipper-like hands with rudimentary fingers (described as "nubbins").
The story's narrator is a spirit who has been watching over humans for the last million years. This particular ghost is the immortal spirit of Leon Trotsky Trout, son of Vonnegut's recurring character Kilgore Trout. Leon, a Vietnam War veteran who is affected by the massacres in Vietnam, goes AWOL and settles in Sweden, where he works as a shipbuilder and dies during the construction of the ship, the Bahía de Darwin. This ship is used for the Nature Cruise of the Century. Planned as a celebrity cruise, it was in limbo due to the economic downturn, and due to a chain of rather unconnected events the ship ended up in allowing humans to reach and survive on Galápagos.
Kilgore Trout -- deceased -- makes four appearances in the novel, urging his son to enter the "blue tunnel" that leads to the Afterlife. When Leon refuses the fourth time, Kilgore pledges that he, and the blue tunnel, will not return for one million years, which leaves Leon to observe the slow process of evolution that transforms the humans into aquatic mammals. (The process begins when a Japanese woman on the island, the granddaughter of a Hiroshima survivor, gives birth to a fur-covered daughter.)
Trout maintains that all the sorrows of humankind were caused by "the only true villain in my story: the oversized human brain". Fortunately, natural selection eliminates this problem, since the humans best fitted to Santa Rosalia were those who could swim best, which required a streamlined head, which in turn required a smaller brain.
The problem isn't the Crackpot blah blah blah Scenario, it's that anarchists think pronouncements about the elimination of "vast, totalizing systems of human extraction" are anything but idle chitchat. It's like saying you're for peace. Great, you and everyone else. How?
Previously on LOST.
Picador, male chimpanzees actually go on regular genetic raids where they troupe through a stretch of other chimps' jungle and murder, "unprovoked," other chimps. Your fantasy about their peaceful behavior is thoroughly out of place; more the stuff of a happy jungle-time coloring book than real chimpanzee life. You should've picked gorillas if you wanted to discuss more peaceful primates.
IOZ, your original post was fun, but anarchy should still provide an answer to a "what if." Is there anything to done with that island? In this one's case, this one would try to cooperate with the stranded partner for a greater chance of survival, and would hope that the other would do the same--but there may be people out there who would act otherwise.
Perhaps the desert island scenario is ridiculous. But as a rhetorical point, it's valid: how do your views propose that such a situation be addressed?
It is possible to answer that question without asking for a Dear Leader to come save you.
...Ms. Anonymous, did you have to mention LOST? Time to bleach this braincase.
If you ever want to insult this one in a way that hurts, instead of saying "you are stupid" or "you are pointless" or "I have not the patience to endure lengthy discussion [with you]," say:
"Millions were spent on LOST, and it was disseminated to a wide, approving audience."
To twist the knife, add:
"...for multiple seasons, to rave reviews."
... is ridiculous ... it's valid
yeah dude.
Inkberrow is the only one who understands me.
I've seen anarchy. It has a big red A on it's backpack, fishnet stockings on its arms and a mohawk. NEXT!
I would say that rather than forced cooperation is usually in the service of something evil, I would say instead that forcing someone to do something compels them to want to rebel. Cooperation begins to be seen as a negative because it's associated with coercion. But then again, what do I know?
respjrat, something can be both ridiculous and valid. For example, our host: he has valid things to say, many of which are logically cohesive, but he's often ridiculous and silly in doing so. The island example is silly, but is a fair, and also very meaningful, question to ask. Because we may have free will, we may consider what we might do in situation X. Because we are all, in a sense, trapped on an island among the stars which has limited resources and supervision, the island example is a wonderful metaphor to help spark a discussion of how we might think about dealing with such seeming constraints.
Arka, if you want to keep up the pretense that you're just One of the Gals (but one of the better'uns, who hates other women and doesn't understand them either, fellas, amirite), you probably ought to knock off the satirical Mizzing of people.
@High Arka
My what-if scenario would be on that island with a bakers dozen of oversexed Asian 18-year-old girls with large mammary glands, and a lifetime supply of Viagra. That is some anarchy I can live with.
Now if you'll excuse me, I, um, need to use the bathroom.
The two people on an island question is pretty boring. Brief degeneration, a BANG, and the lonely victor is restored to a state of anarchy free to live out their life unruled by anything but their conscience and the whims of nature.
More interesting, same question in a teeming city. Suppose we do find ourselves in some sort of large scale anarchic society. suppose also that someone gets sick of my shit and terminates my subjective existence. Then what?
Just let him go cause any enforcement mechanism at all will ultimately case more harm then the sum of all the freelance fuckups who'd ever cause trouble?
"Since I am an arrogant, self-regarding prick, I can only assume that for much of the rest of humanity, the less emotionally crippled portion, the general inclination is to work together, even without the diktat to do so."
It is, when religion doesn't get in the way.
Personally, when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true: I think either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all. Personally, I lean toward unlimited rights - I feel, for instance, I have the right to do anything I please. But, if I do something you don't like, I think you have the right to kill me. So where you gonna find a fairer fucking deal than that? So the next time some asshole says to you, "I have a right to my opinion," you say, "Oh yeah? Well, I have a right to my opinion, and my opinion is that you have no right to your opinion." Then shoot the fuck and walk away!
it is what it is.
Lucid,
I agree with what you say though the idea of possession is also dependent on what culture you belong to. Westerners of course always see things from their own world view and believe it is the only world view since westerners are the cat’s meow in their own eyes. Owning things like the land you live on is a very western idea and not shared by all the cultures that ever were. What is really weird about people is that they are the only critter that will kill you because of what you think.
It seems to me that the beginnings of the state in Mesopotamia was about ensuring a boring life of always having everything you need readily available thus agriculture and domesticated animals if that is the right term. It was the beginning of the MacDonald’s syndrome where everybody knows that they can get the same exact food every time, the right combination of fat, salt, and sugar if you will. It’s about security and trading in an interesting life for predictable boredom that is now only punctuated with stupid electronic shit that only cows could care about. We are what we eat. The invention of the state also allowed for the evolving of the human parasite, those fat bloated ticks at the top that suck the blood of the slave workers who thank the parasites for doing so. We made a weird world in our quest for security.
What you're missing, Mr. Payne, is that we never achieved security. This is anarchy, where those whom we both call parasites are winning the game by out-stronging (in the mental way, if you will) the rest of us.
Some level of security would be nice, but you've only been tricked into thinking you have it so far. We're living in anarchy, and what keeps us there is the illusion that "too much freedom" would be something different.
i don't think he means SECURITY security, H.A.
however we came to it, people certainly do seem to hate uncertainty.
Well there's one thing we can be certain of and that's Arka.
What about Bonobos. They dont engage in territorial warfare with other troupes afaik. They dissipate aggression through sexuality.
Lol I am a twat. Otters also may SMASH CLAMS ON THEIR BELLIES!
Anarchy has given me a boner.
huntin and gatherin and only small plot farmin...but, then, what about the NOMADS?! Hide the beer! Man the barricades! ha...
Entity Nihilist (note the removal of all potentially gender-based terms of address, nonnies!), what security would be the bad one, and what the good? People love uncertainty on the whole, ergo "Vegas" and "lottery." The security of utilizing our shared connections to create a matrix of support which reduces the potential of individualized units harming others to take their resources, this reduction being based upon the high probability of social reaction--which a no-state reactionary-pseudo-anarchism is unable to provide. The chances of humans reacting empathically in the absence of such a framework, as opposed to under a traditional elite state framework, is higher, yes, but not as high as it could be under other arrangements.
Inkberrow and Ryerson have returned, so I am now as supernumerary as a third nipple.
My task here is done.
We are what we eat.
see Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure
Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr.
http://tinyurl.com/7wfo3bu
nut, i'm confused as to why/how you distinguish rules from government. (i don't see an effective difference.)
H.A. i see human behavior as being driven by needs fulfillment, first towards basic survival. so the primary "security" would lie in the certainty of knowing where one's next meal is coming from. also, as you point out, in some sense of certainty that someone else isn't gonna 'will kill for food' on you.
"Vegas" and "lottery" are safe and temporary forms of escapism. escape from R.P.'s weird McDonaldization, perhaps.
the violence you describe would be so antithetical and out of place in a social group bound together by anarchist ethics (or at least ethics true the values most often discussed here @ IOZ) that i don't see how there wouldn't be some kind of social reaction to it. unless punishment and revenge are the only acceptable reaction.
I'm interested in hearing more about Bonobo sex.I need to, uh, dissipate my aggression.
No one's mentioned that this Island Scenario was addressed literally and driven to its inevitable outcome in an episode of "The Mighty Boosh". The famous coconut, of course, was the subtle provocateur Milky Joe. Vince and Howard (think WhoIsIOZ anarchists and statists, respectively) immediately drew a line in the sand and commenced diplomacy, then diplomacy by other means.
Rob - find me a language without a possessive case and I will agree with you. I'm not saying there isn't, I'm just saying that as far as I know, no extant language lacks one.
And while Mcdonald's is indeed the ultimate expression of civilization, I do think that having food security and housing security is required if we are going to continue to evolve as a species and not kill ourselves in the process. The problem is that the vast majority of the world's population don't have these things because our social order is simply a ruse by which those who rule can continue to extract value from those ruled. Even those that have that security do so only at the whim of a superior - or by playing a game that not only wastes everyone's time, but contributes to an economic system that unnecessarily depletes necessary resources at a rate much faster than they can be replaced.
We don't have to have scarcity. It is invented for the benefit of the few. It is invented to shore up the notion of possession - an utterly useless idea that is the root cause of violence in the world. However, we do need to have a complete transformation as a species in order to pry ourselves from idiocy - something I don't see happening in my lifetime.
i'm not so convinced that "possession" is so terrible.
on the one hand, look at it from an early childhood development perspective.
but of course, on the other hand, the time comes to put away childish things.
lucid: Can I sleep with "your" wife (or boyfriend or whatever)? How dare you possess him/her!
Can I move into "your" house uninvited? Why not?
Can I eat "your" food? Why not?
Should my girlfriend/boyfriend want to sleep with you & you her/him, I would have no problem with that.
The whole complex of 'ownership' of a person is intimately related to the concept of property & I believe the root of violence. There has been excellent femininst anthropology done looking at that exact issue.
WRT to my food/house, were it not for a money system in which I need to enslave myself in order to supply those things for myself, I would also have no problem with that. However, given that I prefer to enslave myself only as much as I need to supply food and a roof for myself in the current system, generally speaking, I might be a little pissed. I tend to be pretty generous with my pot though.
Lucid,
I’m not a linguist but fer example Native Americans had no concept of owning land which was a problem for the mighty whitey critters that wanted to own the land. Typically they would find an Indian and after getting him drunk would have him put his x on a piece of paper selling the land to the whites which the Indians had no concept for. It was a real problem for the Native Americans. To the Native Americans the land was what you lived on and nobody owned it. That isn’t to say they didn’t have possessions as they obviously did, and there was trade between different tribes for various goods like pots or whatever. But this was all on a minor scale as they mostly made whatever they needed and it was nothing like our preoccupation with owning stuff. I guess like a lot of stuff it is a matter of degree.
And it seems to me that it is because of civilization (as we like to call it) that we have ceased to evolve. By the fact that we have a steady supply of food, shelter, and medical care or at least the wealthier segment of the population does there is no reason for us to evolve because there is nothing to drive evolution. In fact humans may be getting stupider, at least stupider than people of the distant past who had to use their brains more than we do.
Shorter lucid: if we lived in peace, we could have peace and harmony, if only we had harmony. Never woulda guessed you're a pothead.
Dudes, this isn't Nam. There are rules.
I always think Rob Payne means well, but he invariably comes up with the same crackpot white boy shit about "other" cultures, all the while warning us that he's not an expert in anything nor an anthropologist of anyone. Couldn't have fooled me Rob--you're one step away from that horrible Inuit and snow canard.
Harrumph, I think you mean Eskimo..
Nony 9:09 - really the only thing preventing a better world is the lack pf imagination induced by the social order.
If you're looking for an informal system of "we punish those who harm others," then you're just looking for an unwritten version of the social contract, or a state that agrees to occasionally let things slip through the cracks because anarchists don't want to promise to make commitments--which is, essentially, America anyway, because the cops don't have the budget to track down exactly who stole your car stereo.
In pseudo anarchism, what happens if you're killed in secret? Do the anarchists informally work together to prevent contamination of the crime scene in order to get things to a lab? Who pays for the lab on the days when there are no murders? Et cetera.
If these things aren't made collectively available, then private criminal gangs will establish them and hire thugs to enforce the unorganized to fund their services. Ergo the faux state developed under anarchy, in which we're all told so loudly that anarchy is undesirable that, upon a lot of thought, it starts to look desirable in comparison to being ruled by criminal gangs operating under the banner of not-anarchism. It's a clever ruse--if you break out of the two party system, then the entire network of coercion, and do something that they've told you is the craziest thing of all, you're right back where they wanted you to be in the first place. In short, you're getting played by believing that you've independently and rebelliously chosen anarchism as a solution to the ills of the collective state.
ideally murder should be safe, legal and rare.
I think anarchists should be ready to address themselves what the state has failed to cure. There will still be disease, murder, and mayhem. But there will be other things.
I still enjoy thinking of anarchy while deeply believing that it will feature a good deal of struggle, perhaps endlessly so. I don't consider the war of all against all as a bogeyman that should frighten us away from anarchy (though I understand that's how it's used). I frankly love the idea of us making our own peaces. God, home rule for the individual! God, doing our own work of addressing the brutality inside us, rather than trusting it to intermediaries and false experts! It must be as satisfying as doing one's own labor in any other way, I think.
Nony, I never mentioned the different types of snow! Slowly I turned, inch by inch, step by step. I may be a crack pot but I do mean well.
cuneyt,
"rather than trusting it to intermediaries and false experts"
is an interesting expression. mildly arrogant. (but not something i haven't myself thought in the past!) just that, lately, i've been thinking about who/what ultimately decides whether your way or my way or some other way works best. and it seems to me that it's all externally decided, evolutionarily, by the universe. (god, if you will.) that's the interesting feature of religion. you don't necessarily need to know how a particular moral prescription/proscription works--just that it does. deviate, die (off).
Then, puppylander, um, I think we're God?
If so, then yes.
If these things aren't made collectively available, then private criminal gangs will establish them and hire thugs to enforce the unorganized to fund their services. Ergo the faux state developed under anarchy, in which we're all told so loudly that anarchy is undesirable that, upon a lot of thought, it starts to look desirable in comparison to being ruled by criminal gangs operating under the banner of not-anarchism. It's a clever ruse--if you break out of the two party system, then the entire network of coercion, and do something that they've told you is the craziest thing of all, you're right back where they wanted you to be in the first place. In short, you're getting played by believing that you've independently and rebelliously chosen anarchism as a solution to the ills of the collective state.
I can't actually tell what your viewpoint is here, but my take on this is that, well, maybe it would be a great thing if we could convince everyone to reject the authority of the private gangs. But good luck with that. Someone somewhere will allow themselves to be ruled by private gangs believing it to be preferable (and quickly losing the choice afterwards) and before long, that rule will be extended over everyone by force. Instead, I'd prefer to live in a society where the people enforcing the rules are determined through the most reasonable means as possible and work to try and make those means as reasonable as possible. Thus, I'm in favor of democracy and opposed to Citizens United. I don't even have to get to the question of whether I'd really prefer the anarchy.
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