Since I otherwise and largely agree with my august compeer Rob Payne regarding America's general blood boner, I hope he won't mind if I argue one point, namely that this
Nothing as cynical as the US federal government would embark upon a journey to bring so-called democracy – that sacred cow of the enlightened progressive West— to nations most Americans never heard of and know even less about.is wrong.
If you were to step into my time machine and head back to the eighties, you would probably not find yourself so skeptical of the Soviet desire to bring Soviet communism to Afghanistan. They too wanted central Asian oil, a shake in the opium trade, a foothold in the subcontinent, and a satisfying outlet for their decaying empire's last bloodhumpery, but, sure, they also wanted to recreate a society in their own image. Because we understand Soviet communism as a brutal, unjust, inequitable, etc. system, we have no problem lumping its expansion in with all the other inhuman end goals of that invading state.
Yet we--we skeptics--persist in scoffing at the idea that America has any serious interest in "promoting democracy" because, though I suspect most of us have long had trouble admitting it, even to ourselves, we still hold some notion of democracy in positive regard. Rob's phrasing admits as much: "so-called democracy." Suggesting, obviously, that it is in some manner not really the real thing.
But our democracy is the real thing; this is what democracy looks like. That it is corrupt, violent, satanic, terrible, horrible, no good, very bad . . . this is not some glitch, not some tumor metastasizing into the body politic; this is the flesh-and-bone itself; this is democracy. You look at the corrupt, violent, money-choked gangster regimes in our occupied states and say, Well, clearly we weren't serious about bringing democracy to these poor people, because look at the governments we gave them. Well, those governments look exactly like our own, only a little less refined, a little less skilled--they are not so good at the use of the subtler threats of violence, and so a little more prone, domestically at least, to actual violence.
The point I am making is that our democratic missionaries are exporting democracy as surely as Catholic Europe really did want to convert the natives. Only if you believe that that wasn't really Christianity, or that ours isn't really democracy, do you claim that our governments are too cynical, that they would never really engage in a civilizing mission. No, indeed, they are more cynical than you think. They are so cynical that they would.
55 comments:
"But our democracy is the real thing; this is what democracy looks like. That it is corrupt, violent, satanic, terrible, horrible, no good, very bad . . . this is not some glitch, not some tumor metastasizing into the body politic; this is the flesh-and-bone itself; this is democracy. You look at the corrupt, violent, money-choked gangster regimes in our occupied states and say, Well, clearly we weren't serious about bringing democracy to these poor people, because look at the governments we gave them. Well, those governments look exactly like our own, only a little less refined, a little less skilled--they are not so good at the use of the subtler threats of violence, and so a little more prone, domestically at least, to actual violence."
Now yer bangin' on all six, M'sieur.
Them prose rhythms favorably compare to those of Thomas Wolfe in the concluding section ("Credo") of "You Can't Go Home Again", and also puts one in mind of Lear's rumination on Edgar as Tom O'Bedlam:
KING LEAR
Why, thou wert better in thy grave than to answer
with thy uncovered body this extremity of the skies.
Is man no more than this? Consider him well. Thou
owest the worm no silk, the beast no hide, the sheep
no wool, the cat no perfume. Ha! here's three on
's are sophisticated! Thou art the thing itself:
unaccommodated man is no more but such a poor bare,
forked animal as thou art. Off, off, you lendings!
come unbutton here.
...so long as Democracy™ is good for business. A year or so after it isn't, we'll have that corporation republic out in the open.
Direct democracy is the only true democracy.
Jack Jack Jack - you're being uncharacteristically unsubtle.
Think of the SA (Brown Shirts) vs the SS and you'll see that even monsters come in different flavors.
In the same way, there actually are businessmen who really believe that "democracy" is, in and of itself, a good thing which can only flourish, of course, in a free-enterpise context.
PR, even direct democracy is a sham. obligation devoid of truth.
democracy is our enemy ... lol
(but for real, we should destroy it)
Pretty much.
Wouldn't be crazy to extend your analysis to how and why the World Bank helps "modernize" the various nations whose deplorable primitivity absolutely demands All Mod Cons, and how those badly deprived nations end up owing massive annuities to the World Bank's various directors and shareholders and external entity pals... or anything.
is it abhorrence of all you claim for democracy ("corrupt, violent, satanic, terrible ...")? this is the only part i don't get. it's nature, man. we're freakin animals. sure, we do yoga and drink tea and compose genius and shit. but we're animals, what we do is subjugate, fuck, eat, and kill. i mean, get pumped that we send money for aids and genocide sometimes; that there's commercials with starving kids and beaten puppies. evolution takes time.
Yes, that wasn't really Christianity, and ours isn't really democracy. Democracy is rule by the people. It's not rule by a majority of the people, or by a majority of the people wealthy and connected enough to buy elections.
I gotta admit you are right, Ioz. That was some bad writing and lazy thinking on my part.
Anonymous 10:29: You don't understand. It's the State that causes all of these problems. If man was FREE FREE FREE (and never called the popo) everythign would be lovely.
Brian M-
10:29 here. agree to disagree.
Loathe as I am to do so, I will have to second Eerily.
A regular Chestertonian paradox, that.
Eerily,
This spectacle is expensive. Will come a time - think oil and fresh water depletion - when the expense of maintaining the spectacle will no longer be justifiable by its rewards.
Democracy is rule by the people. It's not rule by a majority of the people
just as anarchy can only persist in a society comprised entirely of anarchists, true democracy can only occur in a population that agrees on everything. lol words are meaningless.
'democracy' is a free-floating signifier....it wasn't even rule 'by the people' in Athens, where it was supposedly invented. (did a nice job of advancing the interests of the 400, though, the Athenian equivalent of the 1%) Oh wait--maybe that *is* what we have now, after all....
IOZ you got it mostly right there. My difference with you: our ruling class really does believe in democracy, warts and all.
It is not the lack of belief that causes the failure of USG's never-ending attempts to take up the white man's burden. Rather, the problem is that the people they are sincerely attempting to help are not Americans, and not like Americans in important ways.
People are not fungible. Democracy can work, at least for a while, if you run it on a substrate population with relatively low time preference, low clannishness, high altruism, and high intelligence. If you run the same structure on present-oriented, clannish, selfish, and stupid people, it doesn't work. It collapses immediately in one-party rule of some kind. (Even in the first world, democracy will collapse in time due to its own contradictions, not least being that the drive for new clients always impels a democracy's ruling class to seek out new voters, and the more naturally dependent and tribal the voters, the better.)
This is why America fails in the third world. Our elites believe that people are fundamentally the same, and thus, fungible -- that an American, a Mexican, a Swede, a Chinaman, an Afghan, and Congolian all have the exact same capacity for "self-government", an Orwellian term meaning "democratic client state of USG". Any obvious differences are just caused by lack of education. Well, USG is certainly good at propaganda; so they attempt it. They fail in most attempts, because the third world is the third world largely because it is populated by people who are naturally more clannish, selfish, and stupid than Americans are.
Nony 10:29,
"i mean, get pumped that we send money for aids and genocide sometimes"
Nice call. So, how does this evolution that will make all things anew come about? Are you Steven Pinker? There is such a thing as guilt that some humans feel, for disputed reasons, and it can have effects beneficial to other humans. But those things you list assuage those unexplained feelings without actually benefiting anyone in most cases, and they often do the opposite. As for calling the police, the evil done by George Zimmerman is insignificant compared to that wrought by the DEA.
Lenny, your reading comprehension is deteriorating.
True Democracy = Consensus of the Self-Governing = Rulerless Government = Anarchy
Demo-cracy cannot be an-archy.
forwarded from the last post .. mo' for rob and a few others to see , .. "puppy , you have frightened me in seeing in your comments on past posts that you have said that you would do anything for your own child .. .. of rob's comments here " / now there mo' .. .
At least Puppy plans on looking his own dirty work in the face.
say more gabe .. that's not telling enough .. .
If your complaints with democracy include a laundry list of things that have afflicted mankind through all of recorded history, under a myriad of other systems of government (or lack therefore), then they aren't very meaningful complaints.
So, like, sorry that democracy doesn't eradicate human fallibility, and stuff, I guess.
It's too bad IOZ and Leonard can't share a blog. The former for his sparkling wit and the latter for being right.
It took democracy to invent and deploy nuclear bombs.
They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once. That's how Dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far.
Are you suggesting nuclear weapons have not afflicted mankind through all of recorded history?
I loathe democracy and so-called democracy equally!-D
"true democracy can only occur in a population that agrees on everything"
Not quite true: True democracy can only occur in a population that agrees on everything it will enforce. This is actually achievable in a small population of township or ward size. Here's how government by consensus works: Everybody in the town hall meeting believes the town should take some particular action, except one or two people. Given that situation, the one or two will generally stand down and go along to achieve consensus. In the absence of such consensus, the majority on the one hand has to ask itself whether the action is important enough to essentially enforce its will on the minority and the minority on the other hand has to ask whether its opposition is so important that it is willing to essentially alienate itself from the community. You may actually wind up with "secession" on the part of the minority, but that doesn't guarantee that the majority won't enforce its will on those who've seceded anyway if the issue is important enough.
This ward or township of course could be part of a larger confederation that operates by the same principles of consensus governing the ward or township itself.
Freedom
Gaber-
1029. you mean my check to that cheryl crow commercial didn't save a puppy?
"As for calling the police, the evil done by George Zimmerman is insignificant compared to that wrought by the DEA."
Can't disagree with that one, sadly. The tragedy of Little Georgie Z's life is he could not do his patrolling (and murdering?) while wearing a snazzy uniform.
Still...even absent a police uniofrom, the wealthy and conglomerations of institutional wealth will still have their own private police forces.
I myself am a Monarchist. If we only had a wise and all controlling hereditary monarchy, everything would be excellent!
"It took democracy to invent and deploy nuclear bombs."
I think it's adorable that you think this is an argument.
Oh dear. I think it's adorable that you think this is an argument.
I just think IOZ is adorable!
"It took democracy to invent and deploy nuclear bombs."
Are you really saying that other forms of government would not be capable of that? I think 'nony's point is one I've tried to make similarly, democracy is not the issue, man. It's about drawing a line in the sand across which you do no...... OVER THE LINE!
I mean, if that's what we're doing, look at all the cool shit democracy got us, too! airplanes! the internet! why, without democracy, we'd never have cured polio or discovered penicillin! THANK YOU, DEMOCRACY, FOR BRINGING HALEY'S COMET BACK IN THE 80's!!!!
Democracy is the most workable system we've got. It's still worth fighting for today, because the alternatives all involve a bunch of people who I like getting hurt. Sure Fuck You Got Mine isn't a valid guiding principle, except it is when the ideology it's fighting is just Fuck You. Make no mistake, that is the fight we are headed for. Resource wars will get ugly fast.
If the corpocracy could buy us all a few hundred more years I'd back it to the hilt, but it can't. Playing fiddles while Rome burns are the corporations, completely alienated from the people who are the blood and sinew that keep them staggering about the landscape.
Filthy, the things staggering about the landscape these days ain't the corporations, largely thanks to the most workable system we have. Just out of curiosity, who are you talking about with the Fuck You ideology? Not the dread Islamofacism? The GOP? Fascism?
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/11/the_terrible_awful_truth_about_1.html
This is democracy, and there is no emergency braking system.
so who is challenging Obummer for the Dem nod in the 2012 election? lulz.
I was just thinking, that poor dog at the top of the blog must have witnessed some real freaky shit. It's got that 1000 yard stare.
Oh please, anything but this is the best we got. Almost all wars are about resources, that isn’t anything new. The exception may be the US which wages war so that the upper crust can suck all the money from the bottom crust. But this is the best we can do? Now that’s what I call cynical. Democracy is just another form of tyranny that requires a bit more propaganda from the top to keep the masses pacified with their delusions like “this is the best we got.” What’s interesting is that the working class seems to understand this better than the better educated so-called upper middle class (whatever that is) liberals that cling to the Democratic Party and Obama’s skirts like a drunk clings to a light pole.
Im just happy that Angela Davis is supporting OBAMA 2012! yay...
Rob, maybe you and I should visit international waters for 30 minutes someday and play "anarchy." What form of government do you suspect we'd develop?
Hi High, Well, since anarchy involves no government I would guess your question is moot. I'm glad you are calling me Rob, Mr. Payne was too formal. Mr. Payne, nobody calls me that except people who want the money I don't have.
Presume, then, that one of us shot the other. Is that all cool? How would you like hipster anarchism to handle the problem of small scale violence?
If you shot Rob, someone would avenge him. If Rob shot you, we'd throw anarchy out the window and make him king.
Next straw man, please.
Gabe, Thank you.
Hi High,
You assume that anarchy equals violence. But that’s just an assumption. It seems to me state violence is the worst violence in the whole history of humanity. It is organized, it is backed by enormous sums of money, it happens on a large scale, and as practiced by the Democratic leadership it is never ending. In fact Obama is nothing but a mass murderer who hides behind the veil of respectability. As I see it anarchy would depend upon people cooperating and helping each other rather than people going for each other’s throats and not the mayhem that you envision. But I don’t know why any of this should bother you because you have exactly what you want already. You already have your “this is the best we got” government that you love so much despite the evil that it does and anarchy isn’t going to happen any time soon if ever. So be happy, a few malcontents that see anarchy as a possible good thing isn’t a threat to you and your beloved state. Perhaps you just cannot stand the thought of people not thinking the way you do and that’s why you come to a blog written by someone that doesn’t agree with your views, in fact charging in like a one woman cavalry ready to do battle, eyes blazing, and smoke coming out of your ears. You seem a bit overwrought to me.
This one loathes this form of government, considers Obama and his murders despicable, and has nothing close to what this one wants.
As you project onto this face a cliche anti-anarchist, and Gabe enjoys the idea of a democratic community voting upon this one's doom, you have demonstrated how a closed tribe reacts to even the hint of a question of its beloved ideals--even if the questions are asked by someone who agrees very much with most of the rest of them.
When you've never defeated the phantoms of your past, you will continue seeing their images across the faces of all whom you encounter as you move through this world. Your every battle will be with them, and you will never win by shattering the mirrors on which they reflect.
May my kin find room in their souls for those who are now lost to them. Lightspring embrace.
Late to the party as usual. All I got is that Filthy Liar made the goofy "most workable system we've got" comment, not Arka, that the "In the Hills, the Cities" metaphor holds just fine for corporations as well as states, that it is cool to lay the bomb & the internet at democracy's feet but not airplanes or a comet & that the answer to questions like "Would you kill me on a boat? With a goat?" etc. we'll never know (hopefully). However, we can write poems about it.
Make love not war, etc etc etc
The Dull Sycophant
you have demonstrated how a closed tribe reacts to even the hint of a question of its beloved ideals
you hypothesizing a knife fight on a life raft this is not.
When you've never defeated the phantoms of your past, you will continue seeing their images across the faces of all whom you encounter as you move through this world. Your every battle will be with them, and you will never win by shattering the mirrors on which they reflect.
clean shot!
Maybe "narcissistic" rather than "cynical"?
The Dull Sycophant
funny how all we feel very different person otherwise would be rather complicated
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