Tuesday, June 12, 2012

Amerkelca

When Jean Monet and Robert Schuman (and some other guys) dreamed up the EU, their dream was of a federal United States of Europe.  Now, WWII was still a recent memory, and anyway, it was perfectly obvious to them that all these different countries, cultures, languages, peoples, etc. were not--not even in peacetime--just going to sign over the deed to some Brussels bureaucracy and go merrily back to beerdrinking and cheesemaking and autobahning or whathaveyou.  So they contrived an economic union, ahem: "Through the consolidation of basic production and the institution of a new High Authority, whose decisions will bind France, Germany and the other countries that join, this proposal represents the first concrete step towards a European federation, imperative for the preservation of peace."  And if you dig into the little known codicils of the Faber charter, you find one of the few plans ever laid down that is visionary and devious enough really to deserve the title: conspiracy.  Bref: Monet and company knew that deepening economic ties would force a series of crises which would compel European nations to either flee the union or else embrace political integration.  That has been the entire history from Brussels to Rome to Maastricht to Lisbon, and now on to the next one.  So the next time you read some scare piece about the uncontrollable whatnot in Europe, just remember: it's all part of the plan.  The crises, the depression, the seemingly uncoordinated and insufficient responses, the misery of the Greeks and Spanish and Portuguese and Irish and soon the Italians . . . these are not the unintended consequences of bad policies or stupid and greedy leaders.  They are the intended consequences.  This is why the liberal and social democratic dreams are so futile and destructive: ever searching for the right kind of people to put in charge, they never quite appreciate what is required of a man . . . or a Merkel . . . to be in charge.

251 comments:

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Eerily Lackadaisical said...

As they used to say on the corner of '25th Street and Lenox Avenue ...

... tell 'em how it TIS, not how it TWAS ...

although I guess in this case what you're saying is that is it TIS what it TIS because of how it TWAS.

Proably one of the best fucking posts you've ever put up here, M'sieur.

Especialy the very elegant:

"And if you dig into the little known codicils of the Faber charter, you find one of the few plans ever laid down that is visionary and devious enough really to deserve the title: conspiracy."

The "Codicils of Faber", eh?

In the wrong (Paul-ian) hands, that phrase could assume the same importance as the phrase "Protocols of Zion" relative to the US version of the EU (the "Fed".) Do you recall poor Daysman at the old BotF Slate board, who was pilloried to the end for bringing up the protocols in relation to his very reasonable stance on the Fed?

Leonard said...

ever searching for the right kind of people to put in charge, they never quite appreciate what is required of a man

This completely misunderstands the problems of modern liberal governance theory. The problem is not that they find the wrong man to "put in charge". (Or rarely, woman.) The problem is that driven by idealistic egalitarianism and base powerlust, the left always seeks to automate government. This what is meant by "public policy". The best experts will inform the courts and bureaucrats and administrators and committees; these various irresponsible groups will then create and impose law. Hundreds or thousands of people have input to every decision; not one of them can be held responsible.

Thus, the progressive goal is not "the right man" in charge; the goal is no one at all in charge, or (equally inanely), everyone in charge. And this is why they fail. Committees have their strengths, but effective and responsible sovereign government is not among them. Giant committees like our electorate cannot do it.

Michael Smith said...

I believe 'Merkel' is German for 'merkin'.

Anonymous said...

"The problem is that driven by idealistic egalitarianism and base powerlust, the left always seeks to automate government."

How does that work? Not saying it doesn't, but the logical connection between those two clauses is not at all obvious. It seems to reduce to "the power-mad seek a world in which power is shared by all", which must be missing a step.

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

nonny@10:56 - it's missing a step because although Leonard is fundamentally correct, he hasn't correctly thought thru the "motivation" side.

It all goes back to the fact that FDR's "brain trust" actually worked, relative speaking.

Which gave liberals the ideas that "experts" can and should decide policy, when in fact, it should only be the will of the people which does that, WHETHER FOR BAD OR GOOD.

And once having been convinced that expertise is the key to successful national policy, where else would liberals find their experts except among the "best and brightest" with whom they went to Fieldson/Andover/Phillips/St Andrews and thence to Yale/Harvard/Princeton and thence to Oxbridge for the obigatory Rhodes ...

That's what Leonard doesn't get - it has nothing to do with egalitarianism or power-lust - it has to do with SELF-IMAGE.

anne said...

on just reading this here .. of io z , i was just going to the commenting to say ..i'd like to see what those of stop me .. would say to what you have written above , and i see that michael has .. mer'

Leonard said...

Nony, the missing step there is democracy. Ultimately in our system, sovereignty is held by the voters collectively. Put more clearly: sovereignty is held by a giant committee of irresponsible and uninterested dunces. Of course they are entirely unfit to rule anything, much less a modern megastate. And they don't really; rather, rulership is taken up by those who tell the masses what to think: the press, education, universities, etc. Uncoincidentally, all of these professions are controlled by scholars, who, unsurprisingly, propound the idea that scholars should rule ("public policy"). Under the influence of this indoctrination by leftist ideologues, the giant committee will always fear and suspect any and all personal power and vote to eliminate it. Thus, "reform", which is always popular. Power is like mass/energy, though -- you cannot get rid of it, you can only rearrange it. Thus, in practice the innate desire to equalize men means not eliminating power but rather dispersing it to a wider group.

Thus, for example, originally on white Christian property-owners could vote. The franchise was gradually widened to include most citizens. This process has slowed as it has reached fairly obvious category boundaries, but I expect it's not done yet. Someday soon I am sure we will discover a Constitutional right for felons to vote, and illegal immigrants. The final step will be allow non-citizens to vote in their own country -- I mean, how unfair is it that illiterate Mexican peasants in Mexico City cannot vote for the U.S. President, when illiterate Mexican peasants in Los Angeles can? The distinction is based solely on being located on some side of some line on a map. There is no clearer example of discrimination. And since as we know all discrimination of any sort is wrong, this too must be rectified. The idea that a country should attempt to favor its own citizens -- or, I should say, "its" "own" "citizens" -- is simple knuckledragging racism.

davidly said...

The most ingenious part is that it's impossible to identify what's not going according to plan.

Jess said...

Leonard, I normally find you entertaining and truthy, but here you're just distracting. The proprietor was talking about Europe, and you're on about this Mexican voting crap. (As if voting were important. Have we not been paying attention?) Not everything is about US.

Davidly, unfalsifiability is not to any theory's credit, but maybe there's an exception for conspiracy theories, if they're really "visionary and devious".

anne said...

not impossible david ly , man that i have been talking with here and there a little for about a year now , what do you think i do for a living ..

Anonymous said...

I think eerily needs to go on super double-secret probation.

anne said...

david ly, remember our talk on colo'r ing , .. the finer .. to your .. ..would like to put some more of yellow mellow on a window maybe ,to go with the beige pants on the photo that michael, another smith .. has at stop me .. on today's post , just looking a little ..now tub

Sorry said...

Yinz read Booker & North's The Great Deception? Since IOZ dared call it conspiracy, lotta usual suspects stirred that melting pot: Donovan & Dulles (CIA), Retinger (Bilderberg), Rockefeller (CFR) & so on. Local connections include William Penn's Assembly of the United Europe back in the day & Pitt's Archive of European Integration. & of course Proudhon had a notion of a federated Europe which sounded alright & which the conspirators had very little use for...

Re: Jess @ 11:57's

Davidly, unfalsifiability is not to any theory's credit, but maybe there's an exception for conspiracy theories, if they're really "visionary and devious".

Gotta hand it to 'em.

Anonymous said...

"Proably one of the best fucking posts you've ever put up here, M'sieur. Especialy the very elegant.."

EL is a run of the mill sycophant.

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

And sorry@119 - let's not forget the Trilateral Comission, which was even more grandiose in its "share the hegemony" dream.

Are "spheres of influence" anything like benwa balls?

lucid said...

Actually Leonard, there are only two states that, on paper, prohibit felons from voting for life - Kentucky & Virginia. Every other state at the very least have a process to restore voting rights & Maine and Vermont even allow felons to vote while in prison. Thus, I highly doubt the high court would ever rule on the matter. That said, it is a clear violation of the 8th amendment.

I am still somehow amazed by the inanity spewing from your brain.

Leonard said...

A "clear" violation? Ha. Ah, how "cruel and unusual" it is to deprive a felon of his right to vote! Why, every man must have a one in ten million chance to decide an election! To not have that... unspeakably cruel! Who could be so cruel as to want to deprive some innocent convicted murderer of his political rights? Why, Democrats might not get elected! This horror is too much to bear.

Talk about spewing inanity.

You are right that many state allow felons to vote. The leftward progress is well advanced, but the fight is not yet won, comrade! There's still work here. And illegal aliens... what of their rights? Surely you will not be so retrograde as to maintain that Mexicans in California should not vote simply because they are there illegally?

demize! said...

You mean 125th. And Lenox Ave because Lenox don't start til 110th. St.. I know "I was waiting for my man" doo doo like the "colored girls" sang waiting like "a raisin in the sun"..

IOZ said...

Leonard is the sole living survivor of the Thornton Affair.

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

aha! caught ya demize. This is something I learned as an honest-to-god cabbie in NYC who was willing to ferry black folk as well as white.

When I kept my cab uptown (above 125th) in Manhattan, taking folks from one part of Harlemn to another, I was confused at first because someone would get in and say take me to 23rd Park. And I'd say, well - do you want me to take the Drive? And they'd look at me pityingly and say "one-hunnerd and twenty-third".

So I caught on real quick that if you're black and don't go downtown, you don't bother with the "one hundeed", cause everything's one hundred and something.

anne said...

oh wait, i take that comment back that i just made on the following post .. eerily is a flutter , just a different kind of flutter , cabbie ?

lucid said...

Leonard - I don't recognize national boundaries & don't believe in representative democracy, so I could really give a shit who votes - it's not like it will change the fact that the same aristocracy that was in power before the common era is still in power today.

lucid said...

cause everything's one hundred and something.

Unless it's 200 hundred and something.

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

except if it's 200 and something, then it was Jewish Washington Heights back then, which is now pretty much Dominican Washington Heights, except for Inwood at the very tip near Columbia's Baker's Field.

When you take the Metro North train down the east side of the Hudson, you will, at the right time of the year, see the Columbia crews sculling onn the Harlem River right where it branches off from the Hudson at Baker's Field.

anne said...

lucid, i left a comment for you at the bottom of the buttered ,last post , .. . is it the bowling .. of a compared to something different of stop me.. ( i've been looking over there a bit in the last few days )

Leonard said...

Lucid -- I do believe in national boundaries -- they exist and they are a good idea. I don't believe in representative democracy, at least not in the sense of "I believe it is a good idea". But I certainly do believe it exists, and it does in fact rule over both of us. As such, I feel it is a good idea to understand it. So yes, I do care who votes, because the composition of a giant committee will influence what it does. Our system would work better if we could remove the franchise from all sorts of easily identified populations. I.e. just imposing literacy tests to vote has been calculated by the experts to improve democracy by 8.2% in terms of public policy outcomes. The problem here is not in identifying groups that are sub-par voters. The problem is disenfranchising them, and keeping them disenfranchised. Why would anyone on the giant committee vote himself off the island? Au contraire -- as I related above, the drive in democracy is always strongly the other way: to expand the franchise. As such, the chance to roll back, say, woman suffrage is precisely zero; whereas the chance that your stupid and bizarre 8th Amendment interpretation will be endorsed by the highest court in the land in the next 10-20 years is odds-on.

lucid said...

But I certainly do believe it exists, and it does in fact rule over both of us.

If I thought for a second that it matters in any important way that representative democracy 'rules' over us, then I would be a vehement democratic progressive, because that particular strain of imperialist happens to administer the global gulag of capitalism in a way the economically benefits those of my caste the most [i.e. middle class, edumecated folk].

Beyond short term and short sighted financial gain, however, it is meaningless. Our species will either survive or it will not & that is entirely dependent upon whether we as a species recognize that and begin to think as a species - including, ending capitalism, distributing and using our resources in the manner that benefits us most as a species and finally laying to rest the entitled mindset of aristocracy that breeds greed and inequality.

lucid said...

Anne - saw the reply. I'm not quite sure I understand it. I was simply saying implying that the commentariat here is, generally speaking, extremely jaded, not particularly cliquish and, obviously, completely unpoliced - much more like a neighborhood bar of cranky old drunks arguing over whiskey in the late afternoon.

Anonymous said...

You can game the chaos, but you'll never be able to tell if it's working, is the thing.

Happy Jack said...

Gotta love the scientific precision of the experts.

anne said...

lucid, it's the lay of io z's page ..in part , of the bar cafe , not too busy visually, there is a small cafe in my view here from my desk ..that has been opened up by one of my second hand and antique neighbours across the road .. that has the same feel as ioz's pg, she has put a folk painting of a potter's wheel where ioz's has his heinz sauce though ,

C. Nihilist said...

The terms "left" and "right" are largely meaningless to me because people never define their terms. They're loaded with too much baggage to communicate precisely.

A lot of times it seems like Leonard almost, might, from a certain point of view, make sense. But he's always going on about It in terms of "the left."

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about?

And, yes, I surely harbor sub-conscious associations with the term "left," residual from past and passed idiological loyalties. Nonetheless, I can never fully grok what Leonard is laying down.

anne said...

.. she learns more on how to read le'nard from nih and lucid as she half sits on her stool not knitting but busy .. of cafe bar more ..

lucid said...

C. Nihilist - for Leonard pretty anyone who doesn't believe white males superior to all others & should rule is a 'leftist' in Leonard's eyes - it has nothing to do with the traditional economic associations one generally identifies as right & left.

lucid said...

C. Nihilist - Clarification. If you're familiar with any white nationalist literature [of European or American variety], it comes pretty close to Leonard's apparent worldview.

anne said...

and what of all of honking voices in the street just now to go with the sounds of sea gulls, larger tree blows , and urban trains .. , of cafe

lucid said...

Anne - it means it's time for a negroni.

Leonard said...

C., there is certainly a left and right in all democratic countries, although on occasion one or the other achieves power and eliminates the other. Thence socialism or fascism. But the two poles are always known to people with the bare modicum of sense.

There are many ways one can define the terms; this is because there are many traits that tend to go with left. For example most leftists want wealth redistribution, or in plain language, robbing the rich. But then there are many clever leftists who can see why that might be a bad idea for various utilitarian reasons, even though they are sympathetic. Thus, we can see that "rob the rich" is not the heart of leftism.

I think that the fundament of the left is egalitarianism: the idea that all disparity of power, all disparity of wealth and status, and all hierarchy are objectionable. Usually the feeling is much more than just objection; it is that inequality of various sorts is evil or wrong or pernicious and ought to be abolished or at least reformed. But note that the left changes because the left always wins in the long run. For example, in 1860 the Republicans were the leftist party of their time. They won, defeated the right militarily, and imposed their radical ideas. This moved the center, and a newer left soon materialized. This is always the pattern.

The right always forms as simple opposition to the left, thus they are always "conservative", but they have widely varying policies in different countries because what they are conserving -- the past triumphs of the left -- vary in different countries.

Anonymous said...

"the two poles are always known to people with the bare modicum of sense."

yeah well that's just like your opinion man

Leonard said...

Lucid, I am not a white nationalist. As for why, it's a bit complicated, but if you really want to know Mencius Moldbug has a good essay called Why I am not a white nationalist that I endorse.

...the worst thing about white nationalism, in my opinion, is just that it's nationalism. Nationalism is really another word for democracy - the concept of democracy makes no sense except as an algorithm for determining the General Will of the People, that is, the Nation. And whatever its electoral formula or lack thereof, every nationalist government has seen itself as in some sense a representative of the Volk.

Compare this to the world of the ancien regime, in which French aristocrats had far more in common with Russian aristocrats than with French peasants. The world before nationalism and democracy was a world of mild wars, small and effective governments, personal freedom, and civilized high culture. Let architecture be the judge: all buildings from the 18th century are treasures. So are most from the 19th. The 20th was the age of nationalism, democracy, tyranny, mass murder, and gigantic concrete eyesores. (I live within walking distance of not one but two hospitals which are dead ringers for any Bulgarian secret-police headquarters. Although on reflection this is probably an insult to Bulgaria.)

Note that, before the coming of nationalist democracy, it was actually not a problem at all for wealthy, high-IQ people to live in the same society as poor, low-IQ people. It worked just fine. The latter served the former. They got paid. No one starved. If the mob wanted to riot, there were more than enough Swiss Guards to handle them.

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

Leonard -

Do you recall the dutiful villainous detective in "Witness" who suffocates at the bottom of a grain silo under a load of grain that Harrison Ford has caused to drop on him?

That's what's happening to you, except that in your case, it's chaff, not grain, and you're the one responsible for letting it choke your synapses.

And they complain about me taking up space here!

The very fact that folks who should know better even bother debating you on the "merits" of your "case" is astonishing.

lucid said...

Leonard - you should really read some Scheler [which is exactly who I had in mind when I referenced European white nationalism]. He'd be your new hero.

anne said...

lucid, the honking .. of timing yes .. but back to where this post began of an over the ocean waves .. and of poles ,of this a lot of polish folks of this street to the greek ..of the next ? said she is very agile but she doesn't follow sports .. only plays with sea gulls .. . and tracks .. like davidly ..

demize! said...

Ahh EL. a Hack, my dad was a Hack. Inwood, the Irish Riviera or, is that Rockaway?

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

That's Rockaway - had a boss named Paul Noonan once from Rockaway - had eyebrows just like Milo O Shea ...

... but speaking of hacks, have you ever read the Razor's Edge by Somerset Maugham (not the Bill Murray or Tyrone Power movies of it - they won't do)?

If so, you'll know why a screwed-up kid was drawn to hacking for reasons other than the fact that you could take down a yard and a half a week without cheating back in 1969-71.

I was going to stay at it until one summer afternoon I was stuck in the LIE entry basin on the Manhattan side - before such a thing as catalytic converters. I realized the exhaust was gonna kill me before cigarettes, and split for the Vineyard that Fall ....

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

"LIE entry basin" = outside Queens-Midtown Tunnel at 34th ...

C. Nihilist said...

the fundament of the left is egalitarianism: the idea that all disparity of power, all disparity of wealth and status, and all hierarchy are objectionable

Thanks for the response, Leonard. But I see no evidence of a left, let alone one that is winning. Shouldn't some sort of anti-authoritarianism have emerged from its egalitarian fundament by now?

anne said...

the left is me ,of what is left/of still living of left .. . it's not about winning of your not seeing it c.nih .. ,but of making life livable by really/of living it .. doing your best to be fair

C. Nihilist said...

in the political realm/in the halls of power, i meant, anne.

anne said...

i'm meaning in the political realm as well c.nih ..

C. Nihilist said...

oh, anne, not you too! don't you realize what i mean? electoral politics. "representative" "democracy."

anne said...

yes i know what you mean .. , i've always known what you mean .., / have you forgotten , or have you never known ..that i'm not in the same country , .. and who are you comparing me to here .. "of not you too " ..

Anonymous said...

Shouldn't some sort of anti-authoritarianism have emerged from its egalitarian fundament by now?

no, because th their natural state, people are NOT equal. there must be authority to MAKE them equal.

or at least, i think thats how the reasoning goes.

lucid said...

Actually, if you read anarchist texts, egalitarianism is the very root of anti-authoritarianism. Authority is what reifies hierarchy in the social order. Thus the only path to true equality is the rejection of authority.

C. Nihilist said...

anne, "you too" as in, like the rest of the internet with whom i can never seem to communicate effectively, which i suspect half the time is just breaking my balls over word choices.

not unlike asking Leonard to define his terms, right? ;-)

anne said...

c nih , wording is so important , i'm odd but exacting in how i write , of not using the wrong word ,of knowing something of it's neg. effects , i was saying something more of this over on paul alexander's pg last week that went over to stop me .. , i barely know you .. but trying to imagine here what you might mean of breaking your balls over word choices ?/ of defining terms i'm stuck on something of this ..last few comments with you .. of resides vs held .. of halls,of one of the words that you mentioned and i deliberately left out ..

C. Nihilist said...

i'm reminded of the conversation months ago about how college educated people communicate differently than less educated people. socialization and whatnot.

- 'halls of power' is cliche. didn't intend to deviate from its everyday usage nor carry it any deeper. because when i'm not helping a comment thread careen off on a tangent, i'm still one of the 140 char club. (now on tumblr!)

- loved Leonard's use of fundament and tried to riff off that. sooo good.

- not sure what "resides vs held" refers to.

but yeah, i often go off half cocked, hitting publish before the 5th edit/re-write. always glad to learn a better way to say what i mean to say, would sometimes prefer to spend energy discussing the underlying concepts, than defending/refining vocabulary choices to those who i agree with anyway.

really i'm kinda easy to troll, huh? i should work on that.

anne said...

c., why are you reminded of that talk here ? .. . are you a bit rough in some way that i am not seeing, that i am not hearing because there is no tonal button for me to tap here to hear you ..,of your saying "less educated people " , .. better to say that they are schooled differently .. , of how learned , rather than less educated, .. a sampling of a ..it is neg. ..of how effects ..that i mention above .. / the wording of .. is unavoidable ..of it's importance ..in discussing , that redefining is finding a way of discussing ,not removed .. / no idea what you mean about being easy to troll here , how does this relate to anything here .. ?

C. Nihilist said...

exactly

anne said...

no not exactly , said very sleepy,of why not /and my saying redefining is taking out the neg of your" defending " / refining . .. , i don't know you well enough to know that we would disagree ..of defending .. ,of its importance

C. Nihilist said...

defending: yes, i said what i meant and i meant what i said.

refining: no, you're right, i should have phrased that differently.

"how college educated people communicate differently than less educated people," was my paraphrase of the old discussion. puppylander and some college educated folks made a value judgment based on people's level of socialization and linked it to educational experience. i used the negative, "less educated," to illustrate said value judgment. (so this is a case of, 'yes, that's what i meant to say.')

as for "wording is important," i agree! cause my goal is to communicate effectively. however, i'd like to point out that you started with, "yes i know what you mean .. , i've always known what you mean". i posit that it's possible that others, too, were able to crack the code and understood my meaning. so i read your quibble as concern trolling.

C. Nihilist said...

and when i said "level" i should have instead said "style" or "manner" or something along those lines. DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE NOW?

sorry, everybody. stopping now.

Anonymous said...

@Lucid

The second part of 358 was stupid and nonsequiturial. The strength of the pack, bro.

The Dull Sycophant

anne said...

morning, .. of the sorry .. i kept trying to redirect the conversing here on this post back across the pond .. . / .. do i see what i've done now .. . ? .. that you are trying in a slightly different way than your usual to communicate more effectively .. , i hope . / always concern yes , ..but not of the new defining .. of how arka behaves as she is commenting on this blog .. when she becomes undone and goes off the tracks .. ./ you didn't say ..of the why you were reminded of that conversing here .. of my questioning , .. and i thought of what puppy had said of that on reading what you wrote above , put the way you wrote it above here .. makes it unclear ..of why , /sweet kisses on the cheek for everyone here now ,comforting kisses , with anne not being one of the suck ups here clearly , but i do mean a softly over to one side of all your delicate bottoms .. ,

anne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Leonard said...

Nihilist: I see no evidence of a left, let alone one that is winning.

There is always a left in every democracy; by definition. You see no left because you are so far left that the left is to your right. But that doesn't mean anything in the bigger picture; it just means that you are a flaming zealot.

Your latest win, if you haven't read any news in the last 10 years, is gay marriage. 20 years ago, unthinkable. Now the law of the land in several states, which is all the wedge needed for the courts to federalize it and then universalize it. This is a massive win for the left and defeat for the right.


Shouldn't some sort of anti-authoritarianism have emerged from its egalitarian fundament by now?

Yes. And there is plenty of just the sort of anti-authoritarianism you like all over the web. We might call it "simple anti-authoritarianism". But that is not the variety that works in politics. In politics anti-authoritarianism translates into democratization -- bringing more and more people into a decision-making process, until theoretically it is everyone (and thus it is no one in particular). Whoever controls education and the media then controls the outcome. That is our modern system of government in a nutshell.

Sites this like one featuring robust but simple anti-authoritarianism are ghetto. The left action is all in the Greenwald-type "mo/better gummint" propaganda. Why? Because simple anti-authoritarianism translates into no power. No jobs. No patronage. Whereas democratic authoritarianism, also known as "activism", is all about power and jobs and patronage. In my kind of simple anti-authoritarian world, if you want to refuse to hire a man for his race or sex or whatnot, that's your call. Very simple, this. But is it left? Not by our modern standards -- rather, the left is all about finding crimethinkers of various sorts and forcing them to do the opposite of what they want.

C. Nihilist said...

What, me, zealous? lol

I kinda see what you are saying. Weird that a movement based on egalitarianism: the idea that all disparity of power, all disparity of wealth and status, and all hierarchy are objectionable, whose activism is all about power and jobs and patronage is seen to be robust and winning, though.

Extending civil marriage under the auspices of an authoritarian state to same sex couples is anti-authoritarian how?

I don't know, man, for my money 'The Ratchet Effect' is way more compelling as an explanation of the left/right relationship to political power.

Rob Payne said...

Gay marriage is a massive win for liberals and a major defeat for the right? I don’t think so. First of all gay marriage is a localized affair, that is it comes under the purview of states not the federal government where it remains despite Obama’s campaign antics. Secondly it isn’t an issue it is a symbol for those who label themselves as left, right, or middle. What is a major issue is the economy. Even Obama’s murder sprees come in a distant second or third or if at all compared to the economy. Just look at the OWS which was about the economy not state murder. If we allow Leonard to frame the discussion within the narrow confines of gay marriage he has a point but if you look at the bigger picture liberals are just as murderous and callous as their hated rivals those terrible conservatives. The fact is there is very little difference between the two and both are steeped in mindless tribalism. To look at it any other way is delusional.

lucid said...

Well Rob, step back even further. Leonard is framing all of this within the assumption that pre-enlightenment monarchism is the ideal:

The world before nationalism and democracy was a world of mild wars, small and effective governments, personal freedom, and civilized high culture.

Because nothing says 'personal freedom'like slavery...

anne said...

nih , ..i'm assuming that you went on with your schooling in some way .. for the work that you are doing now in reading those drawings for .. ( ?) , to my being born with something that had me physical ill a lot growing up and missing a lot of that schooling and only going to gr 13 of that schooling , then my learning being in ,on, of ..the jobs i've had ../ those that i spend time with are so varying in their schooling of how .. , in that i know that .. ways of communicating .. has more to do with each person than with how schooled , ..of back to what i was going to say something of .. but removed because i had to go ,of why flipping a b and p ..

Rob Payne said...

Lucid,

If you are saying that today’s modern governments are actually any better I’m not convinced that this is so. Frankly I care very little for what we call democracy, nationalism, and patriotism. I see democracy as a prettied up version of tyranny and nationalism and patriotism as mindless tribalism. Regarding freedom personal or otherwise we may have the choice between buying Wonderbread or Orowheat if we can still afford to do so but when the federal government declares it can murder anyone answerable to nobody in particular I would say there is no real freedom.

anne said...

nih, of why i hesitate to say something more directly of your .. . hall , because it is of what rob suggests ..of mindless tribalism , .. . pull out your diction reader , flip to define ..of your repub' and dem. .. and you will likely find that the only difference in the wording is something of the hold vs resides .. that i mention

lucid said...

Rob - I'm not making any comment on what we currently have. If you read my responses throughout this thread you'll see that I don't recognize nation states & think that egalitarianism can only come about by rejecting authority. My point is simply that Leonard is asserting pre-enlightenment monarchy as the ideal and creating a 'left'/'right' rubric from that. He is referring to the original sense of the terms [left and right wrt to the French Parliament] rather than the economic manner in which they evolved through the course of the 19th century... and simply pointing out the absurdity of his position.

Rob Payne said...

Lucid,

I can agree with that.

Leonard said...

Nihilist, as I said before, it is egalitarianism that is the true heart of the left. Gay marriage can be seen as authoritarian, because marriage is a privilege, and extending the privilege to homosexual couples extends the authority of the state. Certainly, Christian conservatives see it that way. But it is also egalitarian in that it extends the privileges of marriage to more people. The same is true of homosexuals and military service.

This saga repeats a general tendency of modern-era right/left debates. The left reviles some existing privilege or advantage. The right defends it. Some of the left agitate for the general abolition of the privilege or advantage (this would be, in my terminology above, the simple anti-authoritarians). However most of those on the left agitate for the extension of the privilege or advantage to all; inevitably this requires massive state action. (Things were not as they were for no reason.) The democratic anti-authoritarians prevail, in no small part because they have the inherent basis for a political party in their attitude (namely, political control of other people's wealth), whereas the simple anti-authoritarians do not. A new bureaucracy is set up, or some old one takes on the expanded mission of enforcing the new regime. The state gains authority at the expense of civil society.

Lucid, I said nothing at all about "original" left and right. Rather, per Mr. Nihilist's request, I defined the two terms: within democracy, left is egalitarianism; right is opposition to the new proposals of the left. It is true this works for the original left/right, but it is not based on it. It is based on what I see as the fundament of human nature that underlies leftism in all places and times. You are free to dislike my definitions, although I think if you think about them you will find them useful. Regardless, they have nothing to do with monarchy; they don't even really map very well into non-democracy. Who was the left in the Sublime Porte?

BTW, although I have some sympathy for it, I am not a monarchist as such. The failure modes are too obvious.

anne said...

nih, there is a sampling of poor wording from leonard " ..other people's wealth "

Anonymous said...

i love when the commenters here talk about europe like this

Karl Franz Ochstradt said...

Not really, Anne.

Plenty of "leftists" I encounter insist that my efforts, my abilities, the fruits of my labor -- all belong to Humanity As A Whole. Typical defenses of this attitude are usually summed up with catty snark from the S&M club bathroom:

"Look who started on 3d base and thought he hit a triple! Get it, girls? Triple! Started there? HAH HAH HAH!"

anne said...

franz, .. . you're not catching what i was meaning ..

Karl Franz Ochstradt said...

Entirely possible. Who knows what an errant dot means? Or a collection thereof?

If the point is that Lenny w/o Squiggy is human and makes mistakes, I guess we're all guilty of that.

If it's the focus on "other people's money" vs "own money," I am back where I started. "Leftists" didn't get me to wherever it is I am today, and I don't owe them anything. Nor does Squiggy-free Lenny.

anne said...

pen k,.. i'm not addressing your fine abilities, labour , efforts or fruit .. .

whiny blog reader said...

I used to enjoy these comments, IOZ. now all I get is a bajillion post from this jackoff EL, and all the good commentors don't even bother.

You deleted one of my comments once (fair enough, I was suggesting that your anonymity could be easily undone and was putting it out there how to do so) but this is just ridiculous. You're going to let him come in here and just piss all over your carpet!? Huh? Are you?!?

Eerily Lackadaisical said...

... Hath
not EL eyes? hath not EL hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as
an IOZ-regular is? If you prick EL, does he not bleed?
if you tickle EL, does he not laugh? if you poison
EL, does he not die?

Jack Crow said...

Leonard,

You seem to be treating "left" egalitarianism as if it were (a) universal and (b) not mostly confined to a singular shibboleth among the institutional liberals who have so much in common with even Christian monarcho-traditionalist Spencerians, like yourself.

When it fact radical leftism dispenses almost entirely with the notion a playing field upon which people can be artificially leveled, and like anarchism, has so little in common with pre- and post-Enlightenment European thought as to defy the facile comparison you establish like a field of burning scarecrows, lit for your own puerile entertainment, but having no value beyond that, except maybe in the production Church sanctified ash.

An anarchist, for example, can be expected to accept as observable within a range of human behaviors, that individual human organisms will not only differ, but come in such phenotypical variety (despite having less genetic diversity than dogs and rice) as to allow for a spectrum of talent and expertise which will defy academic categorization. And communists, despite an old Engels-Lenin party line about political equality within the anticipated workers state, have to look no further than Marx to see that the Western founder of that trend believed that the singular purpose of the proletarian seizure of the means of production was no less than the absolute liberty of the individual, as an individual, in order for her to develop a fullness of personal desires and faculties, which would result in the widest possible expansion of experience of human existence.

lucid said...

But Jack, the only possible full expression of human freedom is to own slaves and rape women. It's simply the scientific way of the IQ...

Note that, before the coming of nationalist democracy, it was actually not a problem at all for wealthy, high-IQ people to live in the same society as poor, low-IQ people. It worked just fine. The latter served the former. They got paid. No one starved. If the mob wanted to riot, there were more than enough Swiss Guards to handle them

Jack Crow said...

lucid,

Well, clearly, true freedom can only exist if the slaves know that they aren't free.

...here's what Leonard (and the progressives with which he has so much in common) rarely consider: that the rewards for "merit" are arbitrary.

Worse yet, these people honestly, true believe that "merit" deserves reward. From that, much error flows.

It's almost impossible for them to see a talented sportsmen, for example, and stop at the talent, the pleasure of the game, the beauty of the agonic contest. If the winner doesn't conquer the loser, their world is put to chaos. At least in their heads.

Eerily Lackadaisical said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eerily Lackadaisical said...

If the winner doesn't conquer the loser, their world is put to chaos. At least in their heads.

AND get rewarded handsomely for it ... you forgot that part, JC.

Imagine if Manny P turned down his prize money and portion of the gate UP FRONT, or told them to donate it all to backwoods Phillipine schools ... it's OK for a champion to be generous AFTER-the-fact, but not to opt out of the ethos BEFORE the fact ...

And consider in this regard the archetype evangelist Father Divine, who took Max Weber's "Protestant ethic" to the limit ...

Karl Franz Ochstradt said...

Typical crowbar.

3 paragraphs to say people are different.

Anonymous said...

"...the little known codicils of the Faber charter..."

Little known outside your imagination you mean?

Anonymous said...

Typical kfo.

too stupid to follow an argument but white enough to be a corporate lawyer

Anonymous said...

conspiracy theorist!

Anonymous said...

Monnet, not Monet.
If you do not appear to be fact-checking basics, are you fact-checking the rest?

Karl Franz Ochstradt said...

Nonny, there's no stupidity in failing to admire the shitbird typing of Crackhead Blowjob.

Not to mention his countless lies about his history -- did you know he is responsible for causing the force called "gravity"? He discovered it right around the time he invented what we call "money" and he also was the person who first observed that yes, men have penises and yes, women have vaginas, and yes when there's a train/tunnel situation there, a baby can be created. All this, Our Esteemed Crowbar has invented and passed onto humanity.

Yes. Clearly I'm the dumb one. Because I take a 2 word idea and turn it into 4 paragraphs of polysyllabic puffery.

It chafes when a dipshit like you doesn't properly worship me, and instead chooses to fellate Crowbar.

Anonymous said...

kfo, the curdled is strong in you, padawan.

Karl Franz Ochstradt said...

Pretentious and never-funny is a perspective from which a typist may post, and in the process curdle all sorts of things, dairy and non-.

I'm just replaying the curdle, not creating it. For the creation you should thank that pretentious pisspot, "Jack Crow." He/she/it/golem never saw a simple idea that he/she/it/golem couldn't complicate needlessly with bizarre arcana that nobody cares about, details that bore even the comatose, and "personal experiences" that never happened.

Fables!

Anonymous said...

kfo, the walmart lawyer, getting hinky by pretense
he's the pure soul expert on strangers he's never met

Anonymous said...

Note that, before the coming of nationalist democracy, it was actually not a problem at all for wealthy, high-IQ people to live in the same society as poor, low-IQ people. It worked just fine. The latter served the former. They got paid. No one starved.

No one starved under the aristocracy! Amazing. Those history books about the ancien regime have really been fooling me.

One of my handy little internet time-savers is to just dismiss anyone who quotes Mencius Moldbug approvingly; the guy is an overwrought idiot.

Marta Clavero said...

Hey people! Long time no see!

I was in LA last weekend for my grandpa’s 90th birthday. All the grandchildren had to perform for him so I did a dance performance. Check it out!


Honestly, I’m not that happy with this performance. I was tired from dancing in my cousin’s performance before this, and I didn’t have much time to rest. I don’t think I did justice to the choreography. I just thought I’d share since I got a lot of comments saying I should dance to Wedding Dress.

Tracklist Big Bang VN
big bang
for the mix I made with the choreography:
Kanye West – Power (remix) choreography by Keone Madrid
TaeYang – Wedding Dress choreography by Shaun Evaristo and Lyle Beniga
Usher – More choreography by Keone Madrid
Se7en – Digital Bounce choreography by Keone Madrid



On top of this, I danced to Jay Park – Abandoned with my little cousin. He was too shy to dance on his own so I offered to be in his performance with him. Watch it here!



Hope you guys enjoy it! :D

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